8 months of what i thought was "piecing" down the drain. Reset the post-affair clock to "zero". WW sounding desperate, constant tears, begging, pleading... but still trying to minimize the significance of what she did. Evidence points to the A resuming sometime in... ah, screw it, I'm not sure i know anything about what went on or when in this thing anymore. Everything being called into question. Possibilities range from the unlikely (She cut contact cold turkey, OM called her a couple of times last week and then there was a completely chance meet up at the gym) to the unlikely (She never cut contact at all, never intended to cut contact, but went completely underground and engaged in several near-Machiavellian misdirections to keep from being discovered, keeping fully engaged with the affair and the OM for the entire duration from late April 2017) to a whole range of more likely timelines under the bell curve in between the two. What is most important is that she broke trust (again), lied to me (again), and resumed contact with OM after being told, in July, that that would be the end of this.
I walked out on Saturday and with the exception of a few sentences (mainly: "I want you out", "I dont' want to talk about it", "Please leave me alone" I have barely spoken with her since. I gave her until friday to get out. MC (who is more like a divorce mediator at this point, TBH) talks to us both tomorrow, after which i will start pushing the issue on her leaving the marital bedroom and marital home. If she digs in her heels, i may have to take more drastic action like listing the house for sale (which would be a timely move anyway with S2 off to college in August) or filing for divorce (Which is something, honestly, i would rather leave the onus on her for.)
FWIW this all really [censored]. We had had a really good couple of weeks, and i was finally letting my guard down and had "bought in" to the idea that we had turned the corner. Then, Sha-BOOM! Bomb drop #2
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Try to stay calm and detach. It is no easy but try to free your mind having some rest.It is a breaking point where you are now. You need to be in peace with yourself for the re-start. Stay strong man!
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
I'm sorry about all of the difficulties you've gone through. I know that most people offering advice just want things to work-out (i.e. another marriage saved), but it seems like so often it just turns into a lot of game-play (pursuit and distancing) between the spouses.
I was very fortunate to have a wonderful IC (originally my MC) who helped me put everything in proper perspective. I truly believe, although I could be wrong, that my marriage, as well as many other marriages could be saved by using tough love early in the process. As you probably know, I'm a firm believer in the two step process:
1. Boot the offending spouse out on their @ss. 2. Move on with your life.
In my opinion that approach beats the h3ll out of all of the game playing. And, surprise-surprise, you may even find out you're better off without them.
Just wanted to let you know I'm still here, for whatever that's worth. You know, it always amazes me to see board members circle the wagons when one of their own is on the brink of seeing a M go one way or the other. Although we would not know you if we saw you in a crowd, we know about you in a personal way......and we care. (((hugs)))
I for one, will be very anxious to hear how the MC sessions go. Are you and W seeing the counselor separately or together?
I don't know how much you said to your W through texting yesterday, but it sounds like you handled yourself very well when you went to get more clothes. You said both boys were there. Did the oldest son ride back from college, b/c he knew something was going on? Did the boys ask you questions?
I know you are furious at the OM. Maybe it is natural for any H to want to believe the OM pursued the WW. He may have made first contact, I don't know.....but I think your W is just as guilty as OM. If the OM did contact her first, she should have very firmly told him to never contact her again. I just have doubts that was the case.
My DB mentor had warned me of several things about my OM. One warning was that he would contact me after he had made his circle through whatever other women he might have had on the side (too long to explain it all now). I can't remember exactly, but I think it was almost a year, when he called me at work. He talked as if there had been no space or time since the last call. By the time he had reached out to me, I had finally gotten through the withdrawals, and I basically repeated what I had told him in the email when I had decided to end the A. After that, he never contacted me again.
So, I can see your W's OM contacting her first. How long she may have gone NC, I have no idea. I had forgotten about the incident with her wearing the mysterious jewelry and having a change of clothes for after work. Artista has personal experience that I don't have, and I am so glad she stuck close by you, yesterday.
Let me tell you something I've learned. I saw some of this in myself when Coconut decided he was done and left his W. I saw it in myself yesterday when Artista started giving you the tough advice that you needed to hear. I am getting soft. I was close to losing my objectivity, and as soon as I read Artista's post......I knew she was right. I have been giving your W too much benefit of doubt.
I've seen other LBH's tell newcomers to trust their gut. Your gut was telling you something wasn't right, but you wanted to believe she was being honest, so badly. I did, too. I think we all wanted to see this play out with a happy ending. I believe the M can survive the storm, under those conditions I listed yesterday.......and probably more. B/c your W is clever, and until she wants to "be" married and "behave" like a M woman, more than she wants to tease the bad girl into coming out to play with the bad boys............the vicious roller coaster ride will continue.
Frankly, I don't see how joint MC sessions will help, until she gets her head on straight. Remember the time she said she didn't know if the IC was the girl for her? I think the IC suspected she was still contacting OM, and that's why your W would find excuses to bypass another session. Why wouldn't she see the counselor on her own today?
I don't want your W seeing the MC session as some type of band-aid to smooth things over to get you back home. Whatever is at the root of her rebellion, she needs to deal with it, instead of thinking you should just accept it. My anger and rebellious spirit did not vanish when I ended my A. It would have been wonderful, if that had been the case. However, I had to work through those issues.
I hope you'll look again at Don H's post yesterday about his experience with people's addictions. If there was ever an anology that reinforces the need for tough love in these cases of wayward spouses.......that's it.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Jim, I hear the all too familiar anger in your post. I hope you use this anger for a positive change in your life. Anger is an energy and we must use it for constructive purposes.
Don't make any rash decisions in this state unless you are just sure. You will feel different down the line.
I know this stinks having just let your guard down. Hang in there. doodler's spot on. Time for them to feel some loss.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
You said both boys were there. Did the oldest son ride back from college, b/c he knew something was going on? Did the boys ask you questions?
I was referring to same boy (S18) both times. He is uneasy and growing more curious. Knows somethings up, obviously. Heartbreaking because he continuously struggles with his Tourettes syndrome and is in therapy himself trying to get "college ready"... and he aint there yet. He is also the closer of the two to my W, and is going to be heartbroken if/when he finds out or when she leaves.
Quote:
I know you are furious at the OM. Maybe it is natural for any H to want to believe the OM pursued the WW. He may have made first contact, I don't know.....but I think your W is just as guilty as OM. If the OM did contact her first, she should have very firmly told him to never contact her again. I just have doubts that was the case.
I am absolutely certain that by Saturday, W was a willing participant. I have recordings of a couple of her work phone calls with OM (don't ask how I got them-- I have resources) and while they are somewhat muffled, it is clear she is receptive and solicitous. Talking softly, gently putting him on hold when a patient or some other call comes in (I am usually, though not always, told: "I gotta go"), laughing in that odd way that sounds like a different person than I knew, and saying things like "I remember that night". She was definitely not putting him off. Now, it is quite possible that he contacted her first at some point, ill never know, and it is also possible that now, facing what she is facing, that she is sorry and wishes she could go back, but... doesn't change the facts. As to those calls, she doesn't know I have heard them, and I maneuvered her into admitting they had occurred on Saturday. Wasn't hard. in fact, I don't intend to ever tell her I heard them and they will be used as a litmus test if and when she comes to me humble and such and I decide to give it one last try. I would need to hear complete honesty from her... a complete accounting of the affair, including particularly those calls, so that I knew there were no more shoes to drop and she was truly apologetic and not just, as she appears to be doing now, looking to minimize her guilt.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
I have no advice for you, just well wishes. This stuff stinks. I was one of the ones reading from the sidelines hoping for the best. Breathe. Just focus on you. Do what you have to do. Take care of your sons.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
i missed a couple of your entries yesterday... when i reacted the way i at my H's BD, i may as well have followed a script... i didn't, of course, but just about everything your wife has done and is doing in response to your BD, i did the same... i just came across this from you yesterday:
"Hoosjim, I am so sorry I know that you are hurting because of me and because of that I am dying on the inside. I am trying g to figure me out that is why I had scheduled an appointment with Jessica [our MC/IC] for Wednesday and also for tomorrow. I have done lots of looking into myself.And please understand that what you think yesterday was was not even close. I wish we could talk about it. I know I want us. Not because of yesterday, and not because of the kids, and not because I'm supposed to, but because I want us"
I did this very thing... I sent H messages saying that I just wanted him and the boys and me to move away, just us four... to get away and start over... that I wanted him, wanted to be married to him... i didn't want anybody else... I don't know why I had done the things I had... I am trying to figure it out... ugh...
She says she's looked deep into herself and that is why she scheduled an appointment... wow... she finally got around to scheduling an appointment... just last week it was, "i should schedule an appointment... i'm going to try to schedule an appointment." see what i mean about her words? her words, all along, have been uncommitted... the truth is, she should have scheduled these appointments way before it got to this... she should have honored your requirements when you voiced them...
she is still all about herself: I'm dying inside... well, damm, girl... you sure weren't dying inside when you told hoosjim you were going to have a longer session at the gym on Saturday--cardio and weights, my a$$...
and then saying what you think is not even close... she is still not taking responsibility for her betrayal... her deceitfulness...
and then saying she know she wants "US," not because of yesterday, not because of the boys, not because she is supposed to... she is disingenuous here... IT IS BECAUSE OF YESTERDAY (Saturday)... had that not happened, she would not be telling you in plain words that she wants "US."
This was followed closely by a 40 second voicemail of which I couldn't even distingush coherent words through the heavy sobbing. I think I may actually be growing cold and callous, although her crying did tug at my Heartstrings just a little, I have to admit. What is it about women's tears? Y'all put some kind of special chemicals or something like that?
i sent H an incoherent voicemail too... he didn't get it until after the suicide threat, until after he let me come home... my tears tugged at him too... he hated to see me hurt... even when he first told me he knew about my very first EA, he said the look of pain on my face really hurt him... he hated seeing me in pain even though he was in pain, and i was the cause of it...
You love your wife... you don't want to see her hurt... but if you hope to get to the other side of this with any sense of victory--whatever that may be, YOU MUST RESPECT YOURSELF MORE THAN YOU LOVE HER...
Had my session. Was as much of a "let's get re-set and see how you are doing and establish a baseline" session as anything. And, yes, it was solo. I told W yesterday I had no intention of doing any joint sessions-- if she wanted to make individual appointments for IC for herself, then that was her affair... no pun intended.
Okay, I kinda intended the pun.
At any rate, W did in fact schedule IC sessions. Two to be exact, later today and then on Wednesday. Little hitch in my plan to go home to do the Skype session with the IC for my appointment in that W was still at home. Apparently she called in sick to work today. So, I didn't go into the house... didn't want her listening in on my session and in fact didn't even want her to know I had one, though I assume MC will tell her I did and I didn't tell MC not to.
I gave the MC the detailed rundown (I had interfaced with her via text on Saturday when all the crap went down, but she had not gotten the full scoop). Told her all in knew about W's carryings-on, where I was, that I am at this point "done" with all the crap, that I still have feelings for W but don't know how I could ever see my way clear ever again to trust her and, while I couldn't completely rule out the possibility of trying to work things out some day that things were so effed up right now and W is such an obvious train-wreck that I have absolutely no idea what that might look like... Although it would certainly involve complete accountability for everything in the A from the past, complete transparency going forward, and obviously complete disassociation from both OM and bff AND, most importantly, complete commitment from W to the MR... Which is the biggest, perhaps insurmountable hurdle because I do not know how I would ever be able to trust her commitment.
Also discussed my anger and hatred towards OM... which, after she became comfortable I wasn't going to go out and whack the guy, MC also granted as being completely normal. Even healthy, she said.
MR said all those feelings completely normal. Advised against direct communication with W in the short term since emotions are so charged, except maybe by text, and advised against any joint MC (there's just no point right now) for the indefinite future. Advised giving the boys "surface level" explanation as they are certain to know something is up, but to hold off on any detailed explanations til later. She did grant that leveling with them about the affair ultimately, regardless of WON wife and I divorce, would be a good idea, and also an opportunity to teach them about the importance of boundaries and such.
She talked a bit about the struggle of women in Joan's position to "get their heads right", so she seems to understand the dynamic. Says in my W's case her upbringing and the pressure on her to be the "good girl" and the"good oldest child" have led to it being very hard for her to admit fault and take full accountability for mistakes, and that this is an additional hurdle that will have to be overcome. Agreed with me that her bff would obviously have to "go" if she is ever to drag herself out of this, but that that is something that she is going to have to recognize on her own, hopefully with the help of IC. Also said that W's in my wife's position sometimes "live in a fog" and cant always accurately and fully account for their actions at the time... that if it came to that and that I wanted a full accounting from W for the A, I might need to get it "in writing" so she would have time to process and think about it... but that W was nowhere near being ready for that kind of thing right now.
Agreed that it was troubling that, although W had shown SOME remorse for and acknowledgment of my pain, that there had been no "I'm sorry" or other explicit apology. (Though, again, noting my W's own peculiar hangups on that point.) Also, troubled, though not surprised given what just happened, that the "justification" and rebellion narratives had returned in small doses last couple of weeks.
Interesting question she raised which I had not considered: Would I continue to pay for W's counseling sessions? On the one hand, I would be inclined to say "yes"... if I had some hope that she would come around and fix things with herself. (There is no way she affords the sessions as well as the cost of living here where we live-- one of highest costs of living in country-- on her salary alone. She makes about a quarter of what I make.) OTOH... I am not sure she is genuine about any of this. All I could think when I walked into the bedroom last night and she was sitting in the middle of the bed wearing my shirt (that was her favorite of mine) and sobbing was: "Wow, nice act... you should get an Oscar for that one." If she is just doing this to appease me, to get out of the mess she got herself into, because she got "caught" then... screw that, right? Do I want to be paying the counselor a lot of money (and it is a lot of money that insurance does not reimburse very well-- mental health benefits sucking in general as they do). I am really torn here. On the one hand, if she is to pull herself out of this and become a person who could have a relationship with me (or anyone) she is absolutely going to need the help of a qualified therapist... and this particular therapist really GETS my W. OTOH, I don't want to be getting financially gaffed for a bunch of "show" sessions for a manipulative WW. Interested in everyone's take on this one.
In sum, in general, urged contemplative thought before making any big decisions. Said I was justified in not wanting to leave marital bedroom and home and said it was obviously up to me whether or not to split completely, but that she would advise against it if I harbored any thoughts of potential reconciliation in the future.
I have a follow up scheduled on Wednesday. That's soon, I know, and probably sooner than I needed, but we left a bunch of things un-discussed, and her next opening was not until Wednesday the following week.
She did advise against physical separation, which I expected, saying that that adds an additional layer of separation which is hard for many couples to overcome. That is the biggest, and really only, difference I can see between the counselor's advice and what I am reading here.
Okay, that's it for now. Fire away!
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Jim, really sorry you're going through this. The bottom line is your W is a lying cheater. You have that info laid out before you in stark black-and-white, there is nothing at all vague or unclear about it. I've got to say I fully support the Doodler 2 step plan outlined above. Do that and your W may hit rock bottom and finally come to you with a humble spirit. Right now she's not humble at all, she's a child who is pitching a crying jag of a fit because she's not getting her way. She's trying to manipulate you back into the status quo. Don't do it.
