That escalated quickly; WW's A RESUMES(hoosjim#13)

[hoosjim]

You and your w need to become whole again before you can have a healthy M. My suggestions do very much apply to you, but if you don't want them just say so and I will go back into lurker mode.

Nope, don't go. Very much agree with this first sentence. W is most certainly not "whole" and I am not so arrogant to think that I am, either, at least not yet. I still do have a component of rage/anger in particular lurking around that I need to tame.

And I don't disagree all that much with the body of your work... just one or two things. And that's one of the things that makes this forum so valuable. If there were just one perspective it would be so much more difficult for folks to find one that fits their sitch the best.

Thanks again! And keep posting, please!





And, BTW, ima see if I can obtain a cryogenic freeze chamber or something and just put myself in hibernation on the 23rd of each month. Had some real bad 23rds in this deal. In fact, all of my worst days, with the exception of the drunken May disaster last year, have been on 23rds:

1/23/17--BD1
5/23/17--Burner phone found (I think)
6/23/17--Have to go back and look this up but pretty sure its something.
7/23/17--Burner phone 2 found, I "walk" for first time
8/23/17-- my meltdown after W's late day...where I think in retrospect she may have actually had lunch date with OM
12/23/17--Worst day of Christmas season-- W has anomalous and unexplained weekend trip to office and then "drives by" OM's hangout
3/23/18--I discover the office phoncons with OM-- likely the setup for the gym meet-up and BD2

Seriously, man, the 23rd flat-out $ucks.

[DonH]

At this point, I have to agree with your C, and it appears with you as well Jim in that separating is not the right move at this point. It sounds like you've got a good C who knows what she's doing. Why then would you not follow her advice? I fully see the challanges of in house separation. The thing is, I think a full separation hurts more than in house will hurt - at least in the near term.

Perhaps could you stay with a friend for a week or two? I really wonder if that's not the best move here. You are not ready to talk or deal with W yet and giving you two weeks away might really help the sitch. Even in two weeks I think you'll get an indicator of which direction W is headed. You'll see a lot in a couple weeks - either way. By that I mean you'll see a lot if she's reverting to her old ways and see just as much if she's really finally trying. I think you'll be in a much better place two weeks from now than you will tomorrow.

Now, I also am seeing two sides from you Jim, making me wonder what you are really thinking. In one breath you are saying things like you are done, you don't want to pay for W's C, you don't want to waste more time, you can't see her turning around. But then I see you being very hopeful like you really don't believe those things and are thinking this is her bottom and this M will be saved. Perhaps those wide swings are normal. I just can't tell where you are REALLY at here.

I would most certainly pay for W's C in the near term. Like I said, the picture will start to form rather quickly. With my W after the incident that turned her, I could just tell. She was holding back, and was not all in, etc. she was holding onto not being back and all in. After our incident, that all stopped and I could tell my W was fully back. She stayed that way for another three years until the big BD. However I reverted back to my old self as well. My changes didn't stick.

That's my best advice - find a friend to stay with for a week or two. W will still see you mean business and this is serious. You'll have space and won't have to R talk with her. You can still GAL. However the path back to R is still there. If she moves out or you do, that path is much harder. Now that may still have to happen. You'll know within weeks to a month. You'll see if W is truly changing or is still in her WW mode. You'll see it. I just think you need to keep that path open. I think that's what C is telling you.

[artista]

hoosjim—you were so quick to disregard Coconut right here: If you take the next 6 months truly living for you, you will be that much closer to moving forward if your MR doesn’t reconcile, but if you spend the next 6 months thinking about reconciliation, you will be no closer to moving forward. I feel like you are still thinking you will get back with your W as soon as she breaks down and repents, and I get the feeling you think that will be even before your son goes away to college.. Change your mindset Jim, or you will be stuck in an endless loop.

you asked me how long… here is my story: i believe my H knew he had to separate from me for his own sake... he finally did, the day after a horrible episode at his class reunion, tell me that we need to separate... this was 9 months after the suicide threat... i packed my bags and went to my parents... it was difficult for me... as i was driving from Santa Cruz to San Jose (40-minute drive) it hit me that my family was really broken... i could not believe it... my parents are elderly, and i had stayed with them many times throughout our marriage, but i knew this drive was very different...

even at that, being physically separated, we were still enmeshed in each other's lives because of our sons: 12 and 16 at the time... we talked extensively about my needing a change of scenery... i had been a stay-home, homeschooling mom from 2000-2012... we decided i would go visit my niece (who is my age and much like a sister or close cousin) and her husband for 4-6 weeks... while i was there, H became very cold and mean... all the anger he had been holding aside finally came out when i was far away from him... he took me to the airport and we parted friendly... when i landed in NC, he did a complete 180 and nothing but venom came from him... i was devastated and fell into a depression...

while in NC, my niece and her husband really took me in... i saw a psychiatrist, started taking Zoloft (which helped me to function... my anxiety was super high)... while there, i went to work with my niece, volunteering at her place of employment... her friends kind of took me in too... for about 3 hours a day, i continued to homeschool my sons via Skype... during the end of my six weeks in NC, i landed a part-time job... i accepted it... i went back to San Jose/Santa Cruz for 2-3 weeks, then went back to NC to start my new job as a administrative assistant at a law firm... it was the best place i could have hoped for considering my circumstances...

during this time, my husband and i legally separated... he felt i was reckless, making stupid decisions, and he didn't trust me in any way shape or form... the legal separation would protect him financially... on the other hand, he was still supporting me financially... however, with my new job, i was able to support myself somewhat--being that i was living with my niece and she refused to take a cent from me... she would even let me pay for my meals when we went out to eat... i remember once i went shopping with her and her friends and she slipped a $100 bill into my pocket... it brings tears to my eyes when i recall her and her husband's generosity...

anyway--i was there in NC for 16 months before i finally came back to California for good... during that time, life went on in both of our lives... my father-in-law passed away... my father had a major surgery... H and i were in touch, but it was mainly business-like... i moved back in with my parents... and it was another 7 months before I approached my husband regarding reconciliation… and he needed time to think on it… about a month… during that month we both saw a counselor separately and together… and to show him I was serious, I schedule individual sessions with a psychiatrist… I continued to live with my parents for another month… so there you have it… it took about three years before we reconciled for good—as far as we are both concerned… and we are still piecing in some respects… three years piecing…

I just want to note here that I think you two living under the same roof at this time is a mistake… I do think you will be back in limbo in no time… I believe her chance for change is diminished if you live together so soon… any changes will not be long lasting if they should happen at all—I know I say this in vain… you so eagerly jumped on that part of your counselor’s advice…

know this: I do hope I am wrong… You and your W remind me so much of me and my husband… we are close in age and we even have two sons… you hold the cards, hoosjim—she does not, and she should never act as though she does… there are no excuses for her behavior… no explanations… but I am getting ahead of myself… so much has to happen before you two can really consider reconciling… she is still in self-preservation mode…

please hoosjim—keep us posted as you navigate these treacherous waters… they may seem calm at times, but they are not… your wife has a long way to go before she is emotionally healthy—and that will absolutely not happen while she is connected to her BFF… remember: RESPECT YOURSELF MORE THAN YOU LOVE HER… or she won’t be faithful to you… please do not hesitate to ask for the perspective of this former WW… I want your marriage to succeed…

--artista

[hoosjim]

Hey, DonH... Thanks for chiming in. Now ima jump on you for being slanted by your own perspective, lol... j/k.

No seriously, I do think people's individual perspectives DO affect their insights/advice... and I think that that is valuable. It used to irritate me a bit, but, then again, my emotional state then was not as good as it is now. I still think I come off a little prickly when "respectfully disagreeing" and that is undoubtedly my writing style which tends towards the remnants of the litigator in me... but I do appreciate all views on here and I absolutely do see the utility and benefit in hearing differing, even directly contradictory views. It's challenging, and everyone should challenge their thinking regularly, imo.

Anyhoo:

Perhaps could you stay with a friend for a week or two? I really wonder if that's not the best move here. You are not ready to talk or deal with W yet and giving you two weeks away might really help the sitch. Even in two weeks I think you'll get an indicator of which direction W is headed. You'll see a lot in a couple weeks - either way. By that I mean you'll see a lot if she's reverting to her old ways and see just as much if she's really finally trying. I think you'll be in a much better place two weeks from now than you will tomorrow.

Maybe this is the right paradigm, separating without calling or necessarily designating it as a permanent and official-under-the-law separation. Even so, not sure I would want to frame it that way to my W... and, right now, I don't see any way forward as a "couple". My stance is simply "I want you to leave" and I intend to push that within the next 48 hours but that, obviously, will necessitate contact and a "discussion" of sorts. AAR, She has places she can go. Under the circumstances, I shouldn't have to be the one living out of a hotel room or friend's place. Nonetheless, that may be what happens if she refuses to budge. I would count it a victory, as well as a check mark in her favor and a sign of respect if she agreed to leave. Either way, on here, lets call the split "indefinite", as opposed to "permanent." I am open to the miraculous happening (say, her tumbling down a flight of stairs, forgetting the last 15 years and being madly in love and devoted to me again) even as I am proceeding on what appears to be my path in a different direction.

And perhaps that answers your next question:

Now, I also am seeing two sides from you Jim, making me wonder what you are really thinking. In one breath you are saying things like you are done, you don't want to pay for W's C, you don't want to waste more time, you can't see her turning around. But then I see you being very hopeful like you really don't believe those things and are thinking this is her bottom and this M will be saved. Perhaps those wide swings are normal. I just can't tell where you are REALLY at here.

TBTH, I am not at all "hopeful", let alone "very hopeful". In fact, there are so many things stacked against the prospect of a happy marital resolution here (longstanding, likely physical affair, strong connection to OM, unbelievably Toxic and wayward bff who is WW's closest confidant, W's inherent commitment issues, my own fatigue/exhaustion at this process and lack of patience for months/years more of this) that I have a hard time believing that that is what the Good Lord intends... but only He knows what that is so pointless to speculate without some clearer sign. I do, however, acknowledge the possibility. All signs are not completely and irretrievably hopeless-- pretty close, yes, but not all the way there. And I still do have feelings for her that I cannot deny or change. I can't see the path that would get us back together from where I am currently sitting, but my analytical brain, as well as my faith of all things being possible through God which will never leave me, tells me that such a path exists.

So, am I "hopeful"? I think that would be a stretch. This deceptive, selfish, wayward woman who currently lives in my house and looks like my W is someone I currently want nothing to do with but... I am kind of like Luke Skywalker, here: "I see there is good still in her". Though, admittedly, she may ultimately recover her goodness and achieve spiritual redemption only to have her life choices prove the undoing of her previous (here marital) life.

I acknowledge the possibility of reconciliation, faint though it may be, and can imagine a woman who is my W who I would want to be with... but she is not currently that woman and I am not counting on her being that woman. I am moving on... perhaps even without any further attempts at reconciliation. That latter, I think, is what the next couple of weeks is all about figuring out. FWIW I think the strong likelihood is that we end up separating into something more permanent-looking. She does just not sound close to a place that would enable her to have the kind of relationship that I want with a woman.

[sandi2]

she is still all about herself: I'm dying inside... well, damm, girl... you sure weren't dying inside when you told hoosjim you were going to have a longer session at the gym on Saturday--cardio and weights, my a$$...

I like this lady!! ^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree about paying for some initial sessions. Give her a birthday card and tell her you will use the Mexico birthday trip money to pay for ever how many IC sessions it will purchase. (But that may seem a little b'tchy, so...... leave off the card).

FWIW, I disagree with the counselor's suggestion about staying under the same roof. If anything, I see it destroying any chance of R, b/c to the WW......it looks as if you are comproming. Any H who was/is experiencing in-house S, will tell you it is soul crushing. (Those are the words I've heard them use). It's like having your nose rubbed in her sh't every day. IMHO, your WW needs to believe you are done with her. No more compromising to her terms. Give her physical space and time to experience or discover what means the most to her. If you go home now, she'll start pulling out of IC/MC.......b/c she'll see it as you being weak. It's not true, of course......but it think it's how she'll see it.

As far as her reaching rock bottom (or somewhere close), I don't see it happening if you are staying with her. But while on the subject.........I don't think I've said that every WW had to hit rock bottom before she could make the decision to do the right thing. I have read a few others who claimed to have been taking something from what they read from me, make a similar statement..........but unless I have forgotten, I said some WW's have to reach rock bottom before they start to come around (make the right decisions). Not all WW's have to do it. I have stated that I did not hit rock bottom. I can easily see how quickly it could have occurred, if I had ever left my H. But I did not physically leave the home. Maybe someone else has a different definition, but I consider rock bottom as being nearly destitute.

To be clear, reality hit me. It did not take that much reality to knock some sense into me (thank God), but for some WW's......it takes a lot more. I experienced loss, but not near as much as some WW's. It's not as if your WW cannot make a decision to straighten up and fly right. Don't ever believe this wayward problem is too big or overwhelming her to the point it leaves her incapable of making right choices. Neither does the fact of being the first born or her parents expecting their daughter to behave appropriately excuse her current actions. I don't assume the IC was trying to make excuses for her. I just wanted to throw this in the mix. There are no excuses. There are no mysterious issues that prevent her from being faithful and committed to the MR. She did not suffer consequences, losses, nor reality smacking her in the face (that I am aware), and she did not do the hard work. Second time around needs to be different.

I see you wanting some idea of a time frame. Artista may be able to give you the time it took her, IDK. However, as I tried to point out in the paragraphs above, every WW sitch will vary.

I maintain that if my H had walked out when he first discovered my A, it would not have taken very long to get my rear in gear. I don't say this to encourage you to leave your M. However, I do encourage you not to agree to an in-house type of S. If you feel you must, then there would have to be a few ground rules......but, we know how she feels about rules. If you can't trust her to be faithful, how could you trust her to respect a few ground rules? The LBH sees in-house S as time to work on the MR. But the WW sees it as cake.

[hoosjim]

Thanks, artista.

Sorry if I came across as completely dismissive of Coconut (I have a way of doing that and so am always trying to tweak my writing style.) I actually totally agree with: "If you take the next 6 months truly living for you, you will be that much closer to moving forward if your MR doesn’t reconcile ". The rest I think is just a difference of perspective and syntax. I think by "Thinking about reconciliation" Coconut prolly means "obsessing about reconciliation" or, at least "Thinking a whole, whole bunch about reconciliation" which is not where I see myself right now. I don't think I need that much a of a mindset change in this area. I acknowledge the possibility. I allow for it. I can do nothing else.

WRT your story, wow. That's a hard one. I think maybe you have related it somewhat before, and so sorry you had to go through all of that. Sounds like it was hard for you as well as everyone else.

Sadly, it is also a long story and, TBH, I think that my story, if it went in that direction, might also end up being a long one. I think that my W has some very different fundamental hang-ups and issues than you, even as your WW profiles look very similar, but how much that would affect the timeline I have no idea. AAR, who knows what the future brings, but I know or at least strongly suspect that I don't have that kind of patience. I love my W, but if someone were to sit down with me now and say "You and your wife can reconcile, and she will be committed and intimate and everything you would want in a MR..l but you have to give it four years", my responses would be 1) "No" and 2) "Oh by the way Oh H*ll no." Even three or even two years. Im 52 for crying out loud. Illness and then depression robbed me of the peak years of my life-- I am eager to get out and live. I don't want to spend the next two, three, or four (maybe not even ONE) years of my life trying to drag up a woman who so badly deceived and betrayed me and our family. Maybe that sounds cold and selfish but... IDK. I am still hurt and sad and angry right now, so maybe I am being overly pessimistic here, but I just cant see me signing up for another such long stretch. This past 14 months was grueling.

[hoosjim]

Okay, advice time. The sitch is that at some point this week I need to interface with her, if for no other reason than to discuss short to mid-term living arrangements. She and I both had IC today. I just got this text:

"HJ, I am sorry that you are hurting and angry because of me and what I have done. I have a letter if you would like to read it. I can put it somewhere for you to pick up if you do not want to see me or talk to me. I am so, so sorry that I hurt you. Thinking of you. Miss you."

This is the first time I have seen or heard the words "I am sorry" since Saturday, and I am gratified that she actually went to counseling, so I feel like now might be, MIGHT be, an okay time to engage, primarily to set the stage for the living arrangements talk. Thinking of responding via text, and I am sure that even if some think this is a good idea that my wording will suck, so please feel free to smack me around as you see fit:

"Mrs. HJ-- I appreciate your apology, though I am sure you realize by this point that that is not enough. I need to come by to strip the roof rack off the Honda..." [HJ-- I really do, the car is totaled and I am a week overdue already in letting the insurance ghouls come tow it away] "...so you can leave the letter in the letter box for me. I cannot promise you that I will read it. We need to talk about living arrangements."

Okay, swing away. Say all of this? None of this? Something else? Kick down the front door and say "Get out of her and never come back you dam**d dirty b**ch!!!" ? (There's actually a funny story related to that line involving my Grandfather chasing my Grandmother and the family dog out of the house that you'll have to remind me to relay sometime.)

[Coconut]

Change your mindset Jim... Why are you trying to coddle the woman who is cheating on you?

[Coconut]

Sry, hit send to early.

Don't respond about the letter, it's words, you need to see actions, not even worth acknowledging.

Go do what you need to the car, no need to tell her, just go do it. What do you want the living arrangements to be, don't address it as a discussion, tell her (I thought you already did) what you want.

[artista]

you are gratified that she went to counseling? of course she went... how could she not? don't be gratified for that... and don't appreciate her apology... and don't mention the letter... why would you care about the stinky letter she wrote 30 seconds after you caught her cheating on you... if anything tell her you don't want the letter... she keeps wanting to give you that stupid letter because you have not allowed her talk with you... girl does not understand space and time... she will get her points across come hell or high water, apparently, and some silly letter is her way to do it... don't take the letter... and regarding living arrangements... you need to say that coming from a position of strength--not compromise... so i suggest rewording it...