That escalated quickly; WW's A RESUMES(hoosjim#13)

[hoosjim]

did this very thing... I sent H messages saying that I just wanted him and the boys and me to move away, just us four... to get away and start over... that I wanted him, wanted to be married to him... i didn't want anybody else... I don't know why I had done the things I had... I am trying to figure it out... ugh...

Artista, thanks. Your insights are extremely helpful.

Please answer me something, and it is going to sound like I am "Eager to reconcile", which I think would be a mischaracterization, so just hear me out:

How long, from that point, the desperation and desperate texts, the suicide threat, etc... until you hit rock bottom and were ready to start rebuilding.

I ask this not because I am "eager to get started" but because... I don't know how much longer, if at all, I can or even want to invest in this. IT has been 14 months since I first found out about the affair. The past 8 months of that, and some brief periods of time on and off prior to that, have been devoted, blood, sweat and tears (At least on my part) to trying to save the MR. Yet here we are and once again appear to be at ground zero. I am going to be 52 next month. I love my W, but I don't know if I am willing to invest another year or even year plus in a potentially failing effort to save the marriage... EVEN IF I COULD BE CONVINCED OF HER COMMITMENT TO SUCH.

So when I ask "how long for you", that is where I am coming from... because your sitch, or at least your past WW mindset, seems remarkably similar to my own W's.

And, if you don't mind, what did that period after your meltdown and then the subsequent recovery "look like"? I want to know what I might be in for. I want to be able to make an informed decision if and when the time comes.


ALSO: Completely unrelated to the above-- I am now increasingly in the "phone call in car to bff was a setup believing they were being listened to" camp. MC told me today that she exchanged texts with W and advised her not to pursue me but to give me time and space. I knew they had swapped texts but not that. That exchange occurred I am pretty sure (though still not positive) BEFORE the odd car-trip that W took out to "find" me at the bar. Wife acknowledged receiving such advice in a later text to me... after the car pursuit and the call to bff. Idunno... prolly not even worth worrying about anyway. Even if absolutely everything she said on that phoncon were 100% genuine... I'd still be going "ick" at the things she said. Her mind is just... broken... wayward.

[artista]

She did advise against physical separation, which I expected, saying that that adds an additional layer of separation which is hard for many couples to overcome. That is the biggest, and really only, difference I can see between the counselor's advice and what I am reading here.

Okay, that's it for now. Fire away!

seems you had a good IC session... and your counselor seems to really get you and your W... and i do think you should support your W's sessions at least at first... and if it comes to be that she is not really putting in the work to getting herself "fixed," you can stop paying for them... if she keeps relying on BFF, i would say that is a sign she is not putting in the work...

but dang it--i do disagree with your counselor as far as living in the same home, as you already know... i cannot see living together as a good thing at this time... i just don't think your W will respect your space... i think she will force discussions... and most of all, she will get comfortable and any urgency to change will wither...

mis dos centavos...

--artista

[EastTN]

No advice, just warm wishes. Hang in there, Jim, you deserve better than this.

[AnotherStander]

I am really torn here. On the one hand, if she is to pull herself out of this and become a person who could have a relationship with me (or anyone) she is absolutely going to need the help of a qualified therapist... and this particular therapist really GETS my W. OTOH, I don't want to be getting financially gaffed for a bunch of "show" sessions for a manipulative WW. Interested in everyone's take on this one.

Hmmm, that is a tough one. I suppose I wouldn't rip the rug out from under her, but perhaps you can offer to cover a certain number of additional sessions and tell her after that she's on her own?

[Cadet]

How long, from that point, the desperation and desperate texts, the suicide threat, etc... until you hit rock bottom and were ready to start rebuilding.

Here is my .02
Rock bottom can come after the affair ends.
Some affairs end in 2 years.

Some NEVER end.

Best to live your life "as if" she is never coming back and then
if she does you can decide what to do then.
Right now you have your answer.

[neffer]

You must let her go Jim. This is a re-start for you. Both of you must face reality: you can’t get in her mind, she must feel the outcome of her behaviour. Take your time. Keep strong. Get her respect.

[Coconut]

Although it would certainly involve complete accountability for everything in the A from the past, complete transparency going forward, and obviously complete disassociation from both OM and bff AND, most importantly, complete commitment from W to the MR... Which is the biggest, perhaps insurmountable hurdle because I do not know how I would ever be able to trust her commitment.
Agreed that it was troubling that, although W had shown SOME remorse for and acknowledgment of my pain, that there had been no "I'm sorry" or other explicit apology. (Though, again, noting my W's own peculiar hangups on that point.) Also, troubled, though not surprised given what just happened, that the "justification" and rebellion narratives had returned in small doses last couple of weeks.

Are you maybe trying to communicate to your W through the counselor? I’m kind of surprised that it isn’t a conflict of interest for a counselor to see you both individually, but I think that there is way to much cross information going on.

Interesting question she raised which I had not considered: Would I continue to pay for W's counseling sessions? On the one hand, I would be inclined to say "yes"...

Being that your still M, I don’t really think there is “your” money vs. “her” money… while precautions should be taken to make sure all the money doesn’t disappear, I don’t think a few hundred dollars of counseling is a big deal.

In sum, in general, urged contemplative thought before making any big decisions. Said I was justified in not wanting to leave marital bedroom and home and said it was obviously up to me whether or not to split completely, but that she would advise against it if I harbored any thoughts of potential reconciliation in the future.
She did advise against physical separation, which I expected, saying that that adds an additional layer of separation which is hard for many couples to overcome. That is the biggest, and really only, difference I can see between the counselor's advice and what I am reading here.

I’m on the need to physically separate mind set, I don’t see a way that you can continue to live in the same household and move forward on you, more to come on that.

Yet here we are and once again appear to be at ground zero. I am going to be 52 next month. I love my W, but I don't know if I am willing to invest another year or even year plus in a potentially failing effort to save the marriage... EVEN IF I COULD BE CONVINCED OF HER COMMITMENT TO SUCH.

This statement is what concerns me the most. You absolutely should not be investing time into your W or your M right now, not for the next few months, or year, or couple of years… You need to recognize that your M is over, you need to find the mindset of living your life, separate/away from your W. When you are working on you, you are not investing time into saving your M. Saving your M may be a by-product of working on you, but it should not be the reason for doing it, it CANNOT be the reason for doing it or you will be wasting that time. I did not understand this until I moved to another state and started living for myself, which is why I don’t believe you can do it without at least physically separating.

If you take the next 6 months truly living for you, you will be that much closer to moving forward if your MR doesn’t reconcile, but if you spend the next 6 months thinking about reconciliation, you will be no closer to moving forward. I feel like you are still thinking you will get back with your W as soon as she breaks down and repents, and I get the feeling you think that will be even before your son goes away to college.. Change your mindset Jim, or you will be stuck in an endless loop.

[hoosjim]

Coconut, I love ya, man, and I'm sorry your MR sitch turned out the way it did and happy you now seem to have found peace and fulfillment beyond that old MR, but... I think your, IDK, mindset(?) is not strictly applicable to me. Although, you do offer several good warnings and other useful nuggets. All of your concerns and objections with me right now seemed aimed at "you shouldn't be harboring even a scintilla of hope or even acknowledging that there may be a one in one million chance of eventual reconciliation." I'll address some of the specifics below, because I think the points you raise are valid, to a point, but I also want you to know where I am coming from. As a starting generalization, this is the "divorce busting" forum and the "divorce busting" website. Granted that GAL and "doing oneself" and "detachment" are critical components of all of that, but, once the MR and any hope for it is dead, gone, and buried? Divorce is what's happening and I, personally, will have no more use for DB-ing other than as a contributor... See ya'll 'round. The GAL and getting on with my life stuff? I've got that down, or, at least now I do. The pathetic, shell-shocked, desperate dude that got BD'd in January 2017 is done. Even after last Saturday, I still feel immensely better than I have at any point with the exception of the past, say, 4-5 weeks where I really though the MR was coming back... and I am really even not too far off of that. Maybe it's a component of my training or just the way my mind works and the ability to both compartmentalize as well as to analyze and contemplate multiple outcomes at once, but I personally see no contradiction in my operating principle being to write off the marriage while still acknowledging the possibility that it might, at some unforeseeable time in the future, be revived. My mind simply does not work any other way. I'd need a lobotomy to change that.

Are you maybe trying to communicate to your W through the counselor? I’m kind of surprised that it isn’t a conflict of interest for a counselor to see you both individually, but I think that there is way to much cross information going on.

Ya know I had the same concerns, and did a lot of looking into this and asking around and it really is not a COI. If we were actively in divorce proceedings, a legal matter, then... maybe. But only maybe. This MC in particular says she does it all the time. And while she is very very very pro-marriage and anti-divorce, she does facilitate between couples whose marriages can't be saved... which is something that is quite likely to be needed in my case as well.

As to "trying to communicate", everything conveyed to the counselor today was in response to her questioning. Remember that she only received a thumbnail sketch by text of what transpired over the weekend. One of things she was trying to guage, I think, was how far gone the situation was and whether or not and under what circumstances I could consider taking W back... Which I think was pretty much the exact question she asked me. Also, FWIW, even Sandi2, and, I believe, artista have counseled me to contemplate what those preconditions might be. I have not yet fully done so (contemplated a comprehensive list of such things) because right now my emotions are still somewhat hot and I am still somewhat in "kill this m-f-er who invaded my MR and attacked my family" mode and also in "how the hell would I EVER take back that cold-hearted s**t" (which is actually what I posted on Saturday) mode. Nonetheless, because of how I process things (see above) I will at some point need to acknowledge the possibility mentally. At least until such time as I have no more feelings for the woman... which is not yet... if even then. After all, with God all things are possible.

Being that your still M, I don’t really think there is “your” money vs. “her” money… while precautions should be taken to make sure all the money doesn’t disappear, I don’t think a few hundred dollars of counseling is a big deal./quote]

This is a thoughtful response because it delves even deeper into related issues which I had not addressed. Namely, what to do about the finances in general. I had already been contemplating cancelling her cards that are co-held on my accounts and changing the account numbers, and will definitely do so if/when we separate, as appears most likely to happen very soon. We have separate checking accounts, so that is not a problem. Not sure what we'll do about the bills. We are pretty heavily leveraged, with one kid in college soon to be two, and rely on both our salaries to make ends meet. Separation and divorce will be an extreme financial hardship on us both. More on her than on me, but I aint getting out of it without some pain.

As to the sessions themselves, it was less about the money (Though there is that), and more about the optics and how I feel about supporting someone who did me so wrong. I wouldn't want to be paying for her bogus counseling (if it was bogus) any more than I'd want to be paying for her plastic surgery intended to excite other men (or even me, in the state we're in).

[quote]I’m on the need to physically separate mind set, I don’t see a way that you can continue to live in the same household and move forward on you, more to come on that.

And this is for Artista, too:

but dang it--i do disagree with your counselor as far as living in the same home, as you already know... i cannot see living together as a good thing at this time... i just don't think your W will respect your space... i think she will force discussions... and most of all, she will get comfortable and any urgency to change will wither...

And, yeah, this makes a whole lot of sense when explained, but... you gotta admit it goes against pretty much the entire orthodoxy of marriage saving with the exception of the WW experts on this site... who I have to acknowledge have been pretty much spot on WRT my wife in this one. Having said that, and also now providing the caveat that in my case right now I don't see this going any other way barring some Act of God that I cannot now foresee, I absolutely do not believe that "separation is the only way these marriages ever get successfully resolved." Facts and history just don't bear that out, and I think the world of marriage counselors would all be sued for malpractice if that were the case. Is it sometimes the case? Sure. Is it, especially in the case of WW's, usually the case? Quite possibly. In my case? Who knows. It seems to be headed that way and that seems to be the appropriate short term resolution and the way I want it to be so that's the way im playing it, but I have always had a problem with the (and sorry for this, I do love ya man) militant spurned spouses sector's stance that out of house separation is the ONLY WAY to parse these things. But I do appreciate the insight, and the discussion.... I think it is an interesting one.

This statement is what concerns me the most. You absolutely should not be investing time into your W or your M right now, not for the next few months, or year, or couple of years… You need to recognize that your M is over, you need to find the mindset of living your life, separate/away from your W. When you are working on you, you are not investing time into saving your M. Saving your M may be a by-product of working on you, but it should not be the reason for doing it, it CANNOT be the reason for doing it or you will be wasting that time.

Maybe this is just a POV difference. You say potato I say potawto. Like I said above, I regard the work I am putting in on me as both. I still have feelings for my W. I still acknowledge the possibility that at some point...which is still invisible to me both temporally and circumstantially... we might get back together and that an even better (hey, I can always improve) healthier, happier hoosjim might make that more likely at the same time it is making a better life for myself. I don't see the conflict, there. Again, maybe just a function of my personal ability to compartmentalize.

but if you spend the next 6 months thinking about reconciliation, you will be no closer to moving forward.

I will always be thinking in some part of my mind about reconciliation. There is some state of affairs or events, I am certain, that would result in a happy, healthy MR between me and my W. I need to acknowledge that and be open to it, even as I am proceeding down different paths at the moment... those paths could always re-converge. And, at least for me, that's the way it will be until we are divorced and I find someone else or one of us dies. Mentally, I just don't find this a challenging process, but maybe I am missing something, IDK.

And, again, this difference in opinions could also be driven by our somewhat different spouses, yours, IIRC, being much more prickly, confrontational, and outright nasty (Not meant as a cut against you, just noting the diff).

Anyway, I appreciate your perspective, and it always makes me think, so thanks! And keep posting!

[Coconut]

Fair enough, but just know that I say living for you is the only way, because I lived it, I felt it, i recognized when I got to the point that I could actually reconcile with my ex. I'm not saying it because Im a scorned LBS who is no longer pro-M.

You and your w need to become whole again before you can have a healthy M. My suggestions do very much apply to you, but if you don't want them just say so and I will go back into lurker mode.

[hoosjim]

And let me just drop a quick note here to everyone who has been contributing to my thread, even to those with whom I do not completely agree all the time: Thanks!! Thank you so much, and I truly mean that. This place is not only a source of invaluable advice, it is also a refuge in time of need... and this has been such a time for me.

There are, IDK, what, hundreds (thousands?) of posters on this site, all of whom need help and support at one time or another, and I know the folks who contribute a lot can get spread pretty thin under the best of circumstances, and my thread has been CRAZY the last three days... I think we filled an entire thread in like two and a half days or something like that, and here we are nearing page 3 on another. So I know that people care when they take the extra time to post here, and to post as frequently as they have done so over the past several days. I myself hope to be on more as contributor in the future but, obviously right now, I am just trying to right my own ship just a wee bit. But I am eager to eventually put back as much as I am receiving on here... and I feel like I have been receiving a lot. The outpouring of support and suggestions has been very meaningful and very helpful and I thank you all, again, from the bottom of my heart. God bless you all.

And while I appreciate everyone's contributions on here, I would be remiss if I did not single out Sandi2 and artista for special thanks. These two are highly in demand all over these forums, and there are so many posters here (I think it is probably a large majority, even), who have had to deal with a WW-- an area where both these two ladies have loads of helpful expertise-- that I can't believe that they manage to keep up with it all. I am truly, truly grateful for the extra time you two ladies spent "in my corner" these past few days. Bless you.

Thanks again all... now I have a speck of dust in my eye so gotta go wipe it out...