That escalated quickly; WW's A RESUMES(hoosjim#13)

[artista]

I mean... arrrgh! I just have so much frustration and anger towards her. Seems like she wants to just jump right back into working on things at the point we were at (my impression, at least). EVEN IF she were serious and EVEN IF she were trustworthy, it is so childish to even think that that is possible. Every aspect of a relationship requires some degree of surrender and vulnerability-- even just going out and having fun with each other on a casual date. You need to be able to let your guard down to truly enjoy the other person's company. And you cant let your guard down with someone who has (repeatedly) stabbed you in the back every time you've shown it to them.

you are correct... that is exactly what she hopes to do--get to the point where you were before you caught her... really--who wants to acknowledge the bomb that just went off? it's scary and painful... she is not feeling the pain at this point... she is scared... she is trying to avoid the pain... she is doing, doing, doing, talking, talking, talking, explaining... her gears are grinding... when she gets to the point where she is either all out of schemes, or is just too dang tired, she will finally realize the pain... that is when i saw that i was broken... H (whose name is Jim, just like yours!) had already told me i was broken, but i didn't see it until my point of finally realizing i needed to be authentic... i couldn't pull this off by mere appearances...

hoosjim--it is good that you have time to yourself so you can go through your cycle... and i think you are handling it well... i dig your sense of humor...

[hoosjim]

And let me expound on this lack of trust and seeming impossibility of ever earning it back again:

Sandi2 and others have said from a WW you need to see consistent behavior change over a period of time. Actions over words. So what does that behavior look like in the case of a WW who is, aside from the illicit cheating and contacting AP, not a ggw or disrespectful? And how do you observe it if you are separated? The running around and cheating youre never going to know about (unless you're having her tailed or tracked or the like, which you shouldn't be doing anyway if you are properly detached.) The going out and ggw I suppose you MIGHT catch wind of if she's doing it, but, if she's not, how would you know? She could just as soon be doing it at places you don't know about. Interactions and demeanor I can see but... what if your WW is (like mine) already desperate and obsequious? Just need to see consistent groveling? That I can see, but the rest of it... how do you know? You certainly can't take her word for it? (I wouldn't).

[hoosjim]

that is exactly what she hopes to do--get to the point where you were before you caught her.

I mean, can she really expect that we would jump right back in to the stuff we were doing? Going out, joking, laughing, flirting, starting to get a little physical? YOUGOTTABEF***INGKIDDINGME!!! YOU WERE JUST HOBNOBBING WITH POS ALCOHOLIC TOWTRUCK DRIVER OM!!! WHO LOOKS LIKE RODNEY DANGERFIELD!!! (No, really, he does). IF I COULD EVER GET OVER YOUR BETRAYAL I'M STILL NOT SURE I COULD EVER GET OVER BEING THROWN OVER FOR AN ALCOHOLIC RODNEY DANGERFIELD LOOKING TOWTRUCK DRIVER!! (Any one of the three, maybe, but definitely not all three together.)

But, seriously! Come ON! If we EVER do this its back to square one, girl! It took my 7 months to get to the point where I felt like I could flirt and start making advances the first time around, and I trust her LESS now. Which is yet another reason I'm not sure I could do this... Don't know if I'd have the heart to invest all that time. Again.




Oh, and thanks, Artista. (BTW, my real name's not "Jim", nor is my real last name "Smith"... My Mom once told me a story about going on her honeymoon with my Dad and the hotel they stayed in was also hosting the "National Conference of Jim Smiths", or something like that because "Jim Smith" was the most common American name at that time, so that pretty much every other person staying in the hotel was "Jim Smith."-- Guess that made the nametag printing pretty easy, lol. Anyhoo, that story always stuck with me so I adopted it as my screen name pseudonym here.)

[artista]

you are right, you cannot take her word for it... remember: believe nothing they say, "i'm dying inside... i never meant to hurt you... " and only half of what they do: "snuggling," "finally wearing wedding rings," "finally setting up IC sessions."

it's harder for you because your wife was not GGW, and neither was i... remember i said what she has done and what i did was more cruel than what spouses who are blatant in their cheating do?

as with most things, these things go about in stages... she will finally stop trying to win you over with words... she will be respectful of you...

you say she wasn't ggw or disrespectful... i beg to differ... she was very disrespectful to you... i saw it... telling you she would "probably be home by 5:30" on her wine night, but then little by little letting you know that she was actually going to stay later... that hurt you... you and she still saw her as "behaving,"... i didn't... that was misbehaving... thinking it would be okay to meet Doc at the wrestling match is disrespectful to you... not wearing her wedding rings was disrespectful... weekend away with her BFF and other GF on her birthday, without discussing it with you (especially during the time of what you hoped was piecing)--she told you about it but didn't ask what you thought... that was disrespectful...

hoosjim--she was living her life with the attitude of an unmarried woman... that is disrespectful... there are many other incidents that stood out to me as they were happening...

so you will begin to see her respecting you... owning her $h1t... she will do things because it is the right thing to do, not pretend to do things because it's the right thing to do... that time when you walked in on her reading one of your workbooks in bed... that was her "pretending to do the right thing." there should come a time when she will REALLY do the work because that is what is required... she will be humble... she won't be coy, she won't be flippant... you have to be able to step back and see the difference... you need perspective... because you were in it, and because you were hopeful that she wanted to save your marriage, your perspective was skewed... your vision needs to be recalibrated...

remember DB 101: believe none of what they say and half of what they do...

--artista

[Cadet]

Have you ever heard of affair down?

That is what she is doing - it is very common.

[hoosjim]

so you will begin to see her respecting you... owning her $h1t... she will do things because it is the right thing to do, not pretend to do things because it's the right thing to do... that time when you walked in on her reading one of your workbooks in bed... that was her "pretending to do the right thing." there should come a time when she will REALLY do the work because that is what is required... she will be humble... she won't be coy, she won't be flippant... you have to be able to step back and see the difference... you need perspective... because you were in it, and because you were hopeful that she wanted to save your marriage, your perspective was skewed... your vision needs to be recalibrated...

She will never be that way until she "fixes" herself. All of what you describe involves some level of either a) frank and unafraid introspection and/or b) openness with others. If nothing else, in these past four days, she has been absolutely right about that: She has barriers and walls all built up inside her. Some against others and the outside, some against herself. That, IMO, is going to take a lot of "fixing" before she is relationship ready, however much she might "want" otherwise.

The sad thing, is that without OM and the affair, I maybe could have been there for her, but not now. Now she has to deal with a broken marriage at the same time as her own personal s**t

[artista]

YOU WERE JUST HOBNOBBING WITH POS ALCOHOLIC TOWTRUCK DRIVER OM!!! WHO LOOKS LIKE RODNEY DANGERFIELD!!! (No, really, he does). IF I COULD EVER GET OVER YOUR BETRAYAL I'M STILL NOT SURE I COULD EVER GET OVER BEING THROWN OVER FOR AN ALCOHOLIC RODNEY DANGERFIELD LOOKING TOWTRUCK DRIVER!! (Any one of the three, maybe, but definitely not all three together.)

okay... i just let out the loudest guffaw ever! No WAY! Rodney Dangerfield???????????????????? hahahahahahaha

[artista]

She will never be that way until she "fixes" herself. All of what you describe involves some level of either a) frank and unafraid introspection and/or b) openness with others. If nothing else, in these past four days, she has been absolutely right about that: She has barriers and walls all built up inside her. Some against others and the outside, some against herself. That, IMO, is going to take a lot of "fixing" before she is relationship ready, however much she might "want" otherwise.

this is very true... and i had to do the same... when i had my meltdown in NC, and when i finally just let it all go, i talked with my niece and her husband about ALL of my indiscretions... all of my bad behavior... i didn't leave any of it out... there is so much more than what i have shared here... i will try to cover all of it someday... anyway, at some point, H called my niece's husband... my niece's husband told my H that i had told them everything... that i opened up and shared all of my garbage... H started asking, "did she tell you about this?" "did she tell you about that?" "did she tell you she did this?" "what about this one? did she tell you about that?" my niece's husband answered yes to all of it because i did share everything... my H was very surprised... he even told niece's husband that he couldn't believe that i actually opened up to them and revealed everything... because i was all about appearances... talking with them was one of the first steps toward authenticity... first was the email i sent to H saying i was done trying to hold everything together... next was sharing with niece and her nephew... H was not talking with me at this time...

[sandi2]

Well, my IPad froze and I lost the post I was working on, and I'm afraid your thread will lock before I get this one sent.....but here's trying.

I hope you realize everything you currently see her doing, is meant to impress you. Going to the IC and reporting back to you, wearing her rings, etc., etc. This is what she does whenever she knows you are upset at her. She tries to score brownie points. If she can get you to compromise, she'll continue playing the same game.

So, Sandi, how did it feel to you? And how did you respond? Were you morose? Depressed? Energized? Defeated? I seem to recall you didn't start "working on" the MR right away? Or did you, after a fashion. I remember you saying it was like two years before OM was completely out of your head, but that NOT going to counseling in your case probably prolonged that. Were you nonetheless "doing work" during that time and, if so, what? And how did that "look" to your H?

How did what feel? The reality that was hitting me? It was horrible! It woke me, so to speak. My daughter had found my messages to OM, and knew everything. I knew my plans to demonize my H to my family and introduce the OM after I separated......was shot down. This was the beginning of my fantasy crumbling. I did not "feel" like reconciling. I had no desire for my H. I could barely stay in the same room with him.

I made the decision to do the right thing, in spite of my feelings. (I had hoped your W had made the same decision, but obviously, I was wrong). The right thing was ending my affair and staying with my H. So, I ended the A. No, it did not take two years to get OM out of my head, but quite a while. It took around two years before I felt that I was emotionally ready to put forth the effort/action toward working on the MR.......in the sense most LBS's think of the WS as "working".

After ending the A, I asked my H if he would attend MC with me. He refused. So, the board served as my MC. No, I had absolutely no energy, no desire, no positive feelings. It took almost six months to finally get through withdrawals. One reason, I finally realized, I was keeping the A alive by fantazing about the OM and all the what-ifs. I was very depressed. Suffered from health problems. Had no motivation or interest in anything.

LBS's must think the WS returns to normal the minute they end their A. They must think all the "normal" feelings are restored immediately. It just isn't the case. It's a process, and it takes time for her to get through it.

I had to deal with all the resentment and disrespectful feelings I held against my H. I prayed a lot, b/c I needed God's help. I even prayed that God would help me feel remorse, b/c I had not felt much guilt or any remorse for the A. I knew I should, but I didn't. I regretted getting caught, very much. I had lost my family's respect. I was having panic attacks and not sleeping. Finally, I was able to let go of the past and forgive my H for everything I had held against him. It wasn't easy. When I did let it go.......then, the remorse hit me. I approached my H and humbly apologized for everything. Went to bed and slept like a baby, and had no more panic attacks.

Most of the work the WW has to do is on her heart. When she truly has fixed her heart, then I believe her actions, attitude and words will match. I will say this.......that before I actually felt respect for my H, I purposely started showing respect toward him. B/c it was the right thing to do. I purposely did appropriate actions instead of inappropriate behavior. I knew what was right. How I felt.....was neither here nor there.......it was about doing what was right. The WW thrives on emotions and selfishness, so she can't allow those to dictate her actions anymore.

I was transparent (although he never asked me to be), b/c I had learned of its importance from the LBS's on the board. I think it helped my H, and I know it helped me. I needed to give an account.......to show I was being honest and doing the right thing, and this was the vehicle that helped keep me stay on track. What drives out the darkness better than light? What exposes and keeps away secrets? If she wants atonement.......what better way than welcome her H to look at her activity.

I made sure I did not act in a secretive fashion.......isolate myself from my H and family, shut the door when I was on the computer or phone, make up excuses to be gone from the house for any long periods of time, take private calls, keep the phone glued to my side, etc. I certainly had no overnight trips or girls night/weekends. I didn't stay late at work or go hang out at a bar after work. Most of the behavior that waves a suspicious flag, just has to abruptly stop. I guess I find it odd that LBS's have to ask what it looks like when a WW starts behaving right. And, many have asked! I would think the wayward knows what appropriate behavior looks like, unless they were raised by degenerates. Not knowing right from wrong, was never the problem.......regardless of the b.s. she might try to sell you. Poor boundaries? Okay, but once the betrayed and concerned spouse expresses how it makes them feel when the W/H act in such a manner.......should not the offending spouse get the idea and stop repeating the same stuff? That's what I mean about the selfishness. She has to kill it. As long as she's talking about her issues of wanting to act like a bad girl, never wanted to commit, etc, she's making excuses for her selfishness, IMHO. It doesn't excuse inappropriate behavior.

Anyway, when my heart changed, it showed on the outside. I realized, too, that I could not depend on emotions. Although I let go of the resentment, etc., my desire and energy did not replace the bad stuff right away. I had to do the right actions on purpose. It's easier when you have all the wonderful feelings. But when you don't have those good emotions, and you are purposely doing what you know to be right.......it is not always so easy. At times, it can be draining. But here's the thing.......the wayward has to kill her selfishness. She can't allow everything to be about her any longer. If I had had IC, maybe it would not have taken as long, IDK. I actually went to an IC.....who was highly recommended in my area. Right off the bat, she told me I had done nothing wrong. What! I had enough sense to know I had done plenty wrong, and this IC was not the right one for me. I went to another one, who sent me to an intern.......who had no clue about the mindset of a wayward spouse. So, I decided to read everything I could find associated with a wayward wife.

I purposely made sure I spent time with my H every evening, showed interest in him and what he was doing/saying, and tried to treat him the way I did when we first met. In other words, I put my best foot forward.......and, I put him first. It was hard, I won't lie. However, good feelings caught up with the good behavior/actions.

That is very rough highlights of those two years. I probably left something important out, but it's already long enough.

[hoosjim]

Hey sandi, thanks. As always, great post with lots of good insight. (And mat I humbly suggest that you get a laptop and ditch the ipad? That thing gives you more trouble. Just sayin)

I was transparent (although he never asked me to be), b/c I had learned of its importance from the LBS's on the board. I think it helped my H, and I know it helped me. I needed to give an account.......to show I was being honest and doing the right thing, and this was the vehicle that helped keep me stay on track. What drives out the darkness better than light? What exposes and keeps away secrets? If she wants atonement.......what better way than welcome her H to look at her activity.

Okay, there is nuance here I am going to ask some clarification on. Obviously, a WW to start her escape from wayward Ness needs to ditch the disrespectful, ggw behavior (staying out late, not acting like a married woman), and, when a WW gets caught and the H drops HIS bomb, you get a self preservation burst of activity (as we're seeing with mine.)

Okay, so what about after that. In a couple of weeks, after the adrenaline and shock have worn off, if the WW is still, at that point, "doing work that would otherwise be productive" and maintaining her more respectful/respectable demeanor... what would distingush that (say, in my w's case bwing the obvious implication) from your phase described above where you are "doing the work because you know you should but your heart is not in it." How do you distinguish the deceptive from the genuine-if-not-heartfelt effort. And it can't be the full humble apology, right, because for you that came much later, yes?

It's just the more I read from you ladies about this Dynamic, it seems like it is really hard to see from the outside whether or not the Wayward wife's heart has turned. Or at least has turned enough that it can be trusted to start moving down the right path.