That escalated quickly; WW's A RESUMES(hoosjim#13)

[25yearsmlc]

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Sandi said she was transparent (although he never asked me to be), b/c she was remorseful and she had learned of its importance

from the LBS's on the board. I think it helped my H, and I know it helped me. I needed to give an account.......to show I was being honest and doing the right thing, and this was the vehicle that helped keep me stay on track. What drives out the darkness better than light? What exposes and keeps away secrets? If she wants atonement.......what better way than welcome her H to look at her activity.

Jim, do you think your wife wants real, honest to goodness atonement? She's not hit rock bottom yet my friend.

Hey, I've been where you are, constantly trying to predict what h was thinking or feeling or doing or planning. WHY he'd want to live in Alaska, WHY he'd choose a PLACE over our marriage and children and all the shared history.

A series of unanswerable riddles...me being the marriage police, and wracking my brain over what was next. It took me the past year for it to truly sink in that h does not have MY values. That is why I kept asking the "why" questions b/c it made no sense to ME. I would never do what h did, so it confused the heck out of me.

I kept wondering why/how h was doing what he was doing, and that was b/c I projected what I, 25, would do if I were in xh's shoes. But that was a fundamentally wrong way to look at his behavior. The fact is, x h's values and perspectives are NOT the same as mine. I don't know when they changed but it's like the word "blue" means one thing to me and though h uses the same word, what HE means is not the same. I think it's the color of the sky on a sunny day but x h thinks it means the cloudy day.

In other words, the more you assume she's like you or that you are like her, the longer you will be confused and stuck.

My x h and I have very different views and values and what HE would be willing to do was very different than what I'd be willing to do. Ever.

So, How do you feel about that?

Okay, there is nuance here I am going to ask some clarification on. Obviously, a WW to start her escape from wayward Ness needs to ditch the disrespectful, ggw behavior (staying out late, not acting like a married woman), and, when a WW gets caught and the H drops HIS bomb, you get a self preservation burst of activity (as we're seeing with mine.)

Not sure how much of this^^ is so obvious, or nuanced but...

What if your w has decided that her unmet needs from the past, justify her doing whatever she wants now, preferably without getting caught?

What if the "disrespectful" stuff is simply coming out passively, by her continuing the A? And other boundary crossings...what if she's not that unusual for a wife who wants to have A's?

Please Don't overlook how many LBSers here are blindsided by their WAS's choices.

X and I ml the morning he went to Alaska for "a trip"...& that was the last time I saw him.
He surprised me the whole past 2 years...

Not all WAS's are mean or overtly behaving in ways that would alert us. Many (most?) like to eat cake. Your wife likes cake.

And of course, that plays with your mind and heart in a whole new way...which really delays our awakenings (the DB goal of our own awakening is crucial to recall. )

it's very confusing, I know, and that confusion delays our healing.


Okay, so what about after that. In a couple of weeks, after the adrenaline and shock have worn off, if the WW is still, at that point, "doing work that would otherwise be productive" and maintaining her more respectful/respectable demeanor... what would distingush that (say, in my w's case bwing the obvious implication) from your phase described above where you are "doing the work because you know you should but your heart is not in it."

How do you distinguish the deceptive from the genuine-if-not-heartfelt effort. And it can't be the full humble apology, right, because for you that came much later, yes?

It's just the more I read from you ladies about this Dynamic, it seems like it is really hard to see from the outside whether or not the Wayward wife's heart has turned. Or at least has turned enough that it can be trusted to start moving down the right path.

Oh Jim, speaking for myself and with the benefit of the hindsight gained after a decade of "reconciliation", please let me offer some advice. (B/c I get the feeling you ignore what I say if it's not pro pro pro believing she's trustworthy and all in.)

if my x were to want to reconcile, NOW, I'd refuse to do anymore guesswork or riddle solving, I'd tolerate no more Itchy sweater feelings, wondering "is he really in the m, NOW??"

A damn humble apology would be essential for x to reconnect with our children b/c their pain must be acknowledged and not ignored. How else can he even pretend to want to show them their value? As for me, he betrayed me and heck yes, I deserve an apology and until I got one, I would not bother doing much "work" on my end.

I realize you have some different kind of dynamic going, but making it too easy to regain the lost trust is simply an exercise in NOT regaining the trust.

I would have to be crystal clear on what and why x he wanted to reconcile, and I'd need to be won over with EFFORT from him.

That is a regret I have about our reconciliation. I did not get clarity from x. I simply trusted that he meant what he said. I did not "make him" work for it and I'm not suggesting anything punitive.

But I wish he and I (and h alone), had gotten counseling so I could hear what he thought had happened. So I could KNOW he realized he had inflicted deep pain on the 4 people who loved him the most.

When X had a day of clarity at Retrovaille in which he was accountable - I felt we had gotten somewhere. I gave that ONE day of tears great weight.

But in a matter of months his remorse had converted into blame shifting.

True effort would mean time, consistent & overt effort and IC on HIS end (and whatever I needed).

I'd have zero (ZERO) tolerance for more doubt. I've been thru enough now.

I would do No more Marriage policing...life is short, Jim. I deserve certainty in the partner I have, and he will get it from me.

Jim, I'm dating someone now and before I continue, we are both aware of rebounds and how we must take things very slowly. So let me say that up front.

However, the way he treats me is with so much kindness and honesty and affection, that it sometimes makes me shake my head. Why was I slogging thru with x, when he mistreated me that way, and was so eternally discontented?

I know you don't want to hear anything but why this will eventually work out, AND it's not that I think it cannot work. I just think you are doing a lot of the "Pick me" dance. AND That does not work.

And the only way to gain any real lasting effort from her is by her losing you - feeling the loss and seeing you in a new light - and THEN regaining your trust AND your interest.

it's the only way she might awaken and to do that, YOU have to awaken to this.
Face the few facts you know.

Is it true that she's had an A and then pretended to stop, but really hasn't? Are you asking why she'd do that? INSTEAD of asking why she's doing what she's doing,

ask yourself, Jim, what do YOU want? Is this marriage making YOU happy? What will YOU tolerate?

Is this marriage AS IT IS NOW with all the doubts and missteps, enough for you?

Are you allowed to be your own priority? Does YOUR happiness get to matter?

[artista]

I think, if you have a healthy perspective, you can detect humility... She has to come to you with a humble heart... She has to know that she does not deserve another chance with you... She will come to you on your terms... She won't insist on trying it "her way." She won't be doing things that say, "look at me! I am doing all the right things!" She won't do things for show, like reading a work book so you notice... Like making a point that you know she is using the app to make an IC appt.

I am curious how she is going to address the BFF issue... and do you think she is going to try to get you to join her for Easter? I wonder if she will... I remember our big BD happened about a month before Thanksgiving... I had hoped that we would work things out by then so things would appear normal at Thanksgiving dinner... Short-sighted moi...

[hoosjim]

She is genuine. She has work to do and I am not going to let her back in right now. But she is genuine. Had a long talk with the mutual friend whom I trust very much. One who knew more than I thought she knew about what was going on. There's an overlay of fear of the OM, who apparently has been threatening at times. There are other things. Wife definitely screwed up. Is she still needs to do some things to get her head completely straight , but I am now convinced that she is at least pointed in the right direction. That she is dreadfully sorry for what she has done. But, yes, more work. I am not lowering my guard yet. Will update more later, but I have an individual counseling session now.



On my way home now so dictating another snippet. This mutual friend was herself a victim of infidelity and managed to reconcile her marriage. She played tough with her husband and eventually they got back together. That was 8 years ago. They're still together and have a great marriage. She is also very Christian and very kind, and they no BS kind of person would not be an enabler for my wife. She's one of the friends that I wish my wife would gravitate closer to as opposed to BFF. she said she didn't tell my wife she would be talking to me and I believe her. She also showed me screenshots of texts that my wife had shared with her. Text from om incline he might tell our kids, or come by her office. My wife has a history, prior to our relationship, of being in abusive relationships, and being one of those women who doesn't tell anyone about it out of fear. There was a lot of other stuff too. Enough to make me think that wife is close to Rock Bottom. We are still too close to Saturday to know for sure, and, as I said, she's still very clearly screwed up, and was willing to do things that she shouldn't have been had her head been in the right place. I want to hear what the counselor has to say because I have not talked to the counselor since the counselor talk to my wife. I have not made any decisions yet, and did not tip my hand who absolutely concurred with me that wife screwed up. I have not made any decisions yet, and I'm still far from taking her back. But I am starting to believe that she may be closer to being in the right place than previously thought. More later.

[artista]

my two cents here: i would be leery of the screen shots that your friend showed you... they could be genuine, but they could be more of the same... you really don't know... i do hope your wife does "genuinely" seek out your Christian friend and begins to back away from BFF... that would be a big positive... right now, i would not give any benefit of the doubt... but i would not dismiss it either... just try to remain neutral... wait and SEE...

[doodler]

Enough to make me think that wife is close to Rock Bottom.

You're delusional. Haven't you caused yourself enough pain already?

[hoosjim]

right now, i would not give any benefit of the doubt... but i would not dismiss it either... just try to remain neutral... wait and SEE...

Artista: This is exactly where i am. And also where the IC/MC is. She believes W is finally "getting it", is devastated, but concurs that what she did was unbelievably selfish and stupid (though not, apparently, all the unusual for women coming off an affair). The way MC/IC put it was that W is starting to realize that her role in any reconcilliation, if there is to be one, is to get her head straight and to have an attitude of "sacrifice" for me and the MR NO MATTER WHAT that sacrifice is. For me, if I am to be able to come back, i will have to reach a place of trust NO MATTER WHAT, and we would have to decide what boundaries would need to be in place to enable that. She also said no MC for a while, only IC. W apparently drove all the way down to see her yesterday in person (3 hours) rather than go to work.

doodler: Dude, really? I'm on the spot here. Will fill in more later but, no, I'm not delusional. Nor am i "bought back in", either.

25yrsMLC: I very much appreciated your post. Your perspective is helpful, and i really appreciate that you made allowance for my... "stance"... for lack of a better word while still strongly voicing your own opinion.

I appreciate everyones' warnings, and I am "Being careful." I still don't know where i am going with this yet, though i know i need something from her. I am not going to make the first move.

More later.

[AnotherStander]

She is genuine.

So a few days ago you caught her meeting OM. Caught her red-handed, thus proving she has been LYING to you throughout this so-called recon. She's a lying cheater. She lies to you and everyone else. She probably told that BS story to 10 different people on the periphery hoping at least one of them would "secretly" leak it back to you, thus making it appear more genuine. I think she's controlling and manipulating you to the max right now. And hey, I totally get your desire to believe it's genuine, but from the outside looking in I've got to say that nothing about it sounds genuine to me.

[Coconut]

Jim, the other part of this is YOU, you need time, YOU need space to reset. A healthy M doesn't start with one person, you both not only need to be pointed in the right direction, you both need to level out first. It is possible to do that while together, albeit painful to do (I'll use Blu as an example here).

You really need to focus on you, you're complete focus has been on her, what she's thinking and doing (completely understandable), but there is a wholeness that comes.with focusing on ones self. If you can truly reach a state of detachment, you will be much more able to renter a healthy R with your W.

[Ginger1]

I am afraid I echo the others. Like AS said, of course you want to see it as genuine. If she didn't get caught would she be genuinely remorseful right now?

Objectively, genuinity cannot come right away the second one gets caught. That's going to take time. She just realized she can't have it all her way right now. She was busted.

[EastTN]

I think doodler's 2x4 was more of a piece of steel plate, but he is probably correct. Jim, you DON'T and CAN'T know where her head is at any given time, and to use the "are you hungry?" metaphor that Amoafwl likes to use, just because she might feel something RIGHT NOW does NOT mean it's going to be consistent.

Protect yourself. You are SO FOCUSED on your W, on the psychology of WWs, it looks like you're trying to put this into some kind of logical framework and go from there. But you CAN'T do that, because it isn't logical. Focus on you, let HER worry about her.