A familiar story with questions. V

[RR17]

Anyway, we are mindreading. Just stay the course. Her being nice is better than her being not nice. It could be the start of her turning back to the MR, it is simply to early to tell.

Why can't she sex me into leaving?

Yes, stay the course.

[SteveLW]

Anyway, we are mindreading. Just stay the course. Her being nice is better than her being not nice. It could be the start of her turning back to the MR, it is simply to early to tell.

Why can't she sex me into leaving?

Yes, stay the course.

LOL

We laugh but WAWs have tried even that.

[RR17]

So another opportunity for interpretation.
We are supposed to listen to what our Ws are really saying, Right?

I'm riding in the car with a friend and my 15D today. (note to self, get better friends)
And said friend after warming up decides he is going to have some fun at my expense. He asks D15 if her father has ever embarrassed her in public.

Now understand that this friend is in his early 60s, never been married, no kids, and in my 25 years of familiarity has never had what I consider a healthy relationship (drinker party girls and maybe some wives), and tends to have a pessimistic sardonic wit. He is funny.

So back to the questioning. D15 recalls an incident where I blew up at a restaurant over some poorly cooked wings. Now granted, this was over 6 years ago and as I remember at the apex of my toxic M. I have since realized that I didn't even realize the place that I had reached. Things reached a toxic atmosphere and I and probably W didn't even realize how bad. Like the frog in the pot of heating water. I caused a bit of a scene. Like most H I realized these transgressions shortly after Discovery in 2013 and with IC and MC addressed what had transpired. No police were called. The restaurant deserved the feedback, but I went too far.

So this friend goes on about how D15 felt, going on and on, and did she ever see herself with anyone that acted that way. Questioning in a leading way that seemed more hurtful than playful. Anyway, at first, I ignored it expecting it to go away. After having enough I handed it back by asking rhetorical questions about how pathetic a person must be to have to destroy another's character just to feel good about one's self. It stopped and we took D15 home. Fun times.

So after work W comes home and out of the norm, is preparing the dinner that she had planned for Sunday and bailed on. I asked if I could tell her something and while preparing the meal I told the story. Since D15 was involved I thought she should know. W is familiar with this friend and would understand the dynamic. And she did.

So the point: I noted that when this whole restaurant incident transpired, I said I was probably a ticking time bomb and hadn't even realized the point that I had reached.

W agreed in a sympathetic kind of way. Not in an "I know that's right, I lived it." kind of way. This show of sympathy is new and unusual.

So if I am to hear what W is really saying, what am I to take from this?

Thanks in advance and God bless.

[SteveLW]

RR17, forget what she says. The fact that it is the last week of June and she is still in the house says a lot more! I think you are on your way to R, just keep on DBing.

[RR17]

Steve, Thanks. I know I can rely on you.

Some on here can't be challenged, only accepted. You I can rely on.

I know what you are saying and it's not in a simple choice of words, it's much more. It's a change of heart. IMO

For some reason, I feel like there is a missing piece. Am I forgetting something or is it just more of the same? I enjoy my solo bedroom. I appreciate the respect that is now extended.

I know it is the allusion of action. The more you try, the less it works. Indifference is a key part of DB.

[Vanilla]

OK. Sit by V and let's have a heart to heart.

This convo is highly inappropriate. If it was V I would have closed it down straight away as crossing a boundary. So I would like to start there.

Allowing this convo at all indicates weak boundaries. It's disrespectful to you despite the content. If this is typical for you then I suggest IC and discuss boundary enforcement.

Is lack of respect for you and your boundaries typical?

V

[SteveLW]

Steve, Thanks. I know I can rely on you.

Some on here can't be challenged, only accepted. You I can rely on.

I know what you are saying and it's not in a simple choice of words, it's much more. It's a change of heart. IMO

For some reason, I feel like there is a missing piece. Am I forgetting something or is it just more of the same? I enjoy my solo bedroom. I appreciate the respect that is now extended.

I know it is the allusion of action. The more you try, the less it works. Indifference is a key part of DB.

Well I think what is missing is that she may still be holding on to her WW daydream and fantasy. I saw that in my sitch, where my W, despite her actions, was still wanting to hold fast to that WW fantasy. In mid Feb, when we were at a marriage retreat (I think she agreed to go in order to be able to say we tried), she rebelled against the MR despite the retreat having an affect on her. It was Christian-based, and prior to her waywardness she had been a devout Christian.

It was there that I really felt her heart starting to change. The Lord works in very mysterious ways and we even had some adversity happen while we were there that helped bring us closer together. But at lunch, on the Saturday of the retreat, she rebelled verbally against the MR one last time. This is documented in my threads.

This is why I always say believe NOTHING they say, whether it be positive OR negative. I see so many here say "Oh, my marriage is over because she said blah blah blah." or "My marriage is saved because she said blah blah blah!" The truth is that sitches do not turn around because of words, they turn around due to action.

I chose my words carefully, that "I think you are on your way to R". Not because of anything you've posted that she has said, it is due to her actions. With words she insisted she was moving out 5/18. In actions it is nearly 7/18 and she is still there, with no apparent activity towards changing that!

In March, when I looked back and realized my W had made no effort to move forward with getting a job and moving out since the middle of Januray, that is when I started thinking that there was a possibility that the retreat, the MC, and my GAL, 180ing and detaching was having an affect. Read my threads and you will see I struggled MIGHTILY. I initiated R talks. I snooped. I was terrible at DBing until late Feb/early March. But once I started detaching and differentiating well, the effect happen fairly quickly.

So yes keep up the GAL, 180s, and detachment. Through that be that spouse only an absolute fool would leave.

There will be things missing for quite a while. My W still isn't as affectionate as she was a year ago, but she is moving in that direction.

[RR17]

V, no lack of respect and my boundaries is not typical. One of my challenges with this or any type of forum is that it is very difficult to convey tone or context.
If you knew me, you would be surprised that I let it go on at all.

Shutting it down, or attempting to, was exactly what he wanted. To get a rise out of me. Make me defensive. It was done in sardonic humor but it crossed the line. At that point, I did shut it down.

This friend, let's call him John. Because that is his name. John is immature and very insecure. When I got married he was jealous and most anything people accomplish gets belittled because of this insecurity. John, I believe saw an opportunity to punch holes in what he sees as my better life. No doubt it was inappropriate. I didn't think he would do this. Now I know.

[RR17]

Thanks, Steve, and Vanilla thank you too.

Steve, I have followed your thread and am happy for your progress. I am also trepidatious that neither W has shown remorse or a loss. Is that correct?

Sandi has empathized the importance of this loss and I believe it. I believe it because although you sometimes tell me it is too soon. Hell, I've been playing this or some version of this game for 5 years now. Since Discovery Aug. 2013. My latest BD was just about a year ago this week. But that is only the latest.
Why, did I return? I believe it is because W didn't experience this loss. We didn't have a proper recon. Both had more lessons to learn. I didn't discover DB until this go round. I hadn't detached.

My living hell has been trying to proceed while living with a person that I often don't trust. That until BD I trusted more than anyone on the planet. If there is any boundary that I am allowing to be breached on a regular basis it is this one. Yes, I have expressed this to W. Once while emotional she even said she was sorry for not doing the things to restore this trust. She also never made an outward attempt to restore it. I think she is afraid to find out what that might look like. Another hold back.
It has also forced me to release control. I get that. Faith baby.

I know what I need to do. I might need reminding from time to time. The more I detach, differentiate and un-enmesh, the more I think about moving on.

We, all of us, are expected to operate unlike humans in this process. Deny our own hurts and what is normally healthy responses to traumatic events for the betterment of a family and or M/R. And at what expense?

Thanks again.

[SteveLW]

RR17, I would never question sandi. She is right that in the vast majority of the cases a WW needs to have a feeling of loss to snap her out of it, and eventually remorse. However, every sitch is different.

While in my sitch I still attribute the turnaround mostly to my differentiation, I did some non-DB things too. The touch charges and talk charges I talk about, as well as the weekly lunch date, most here would classify as pursuit. And it may have been, but it worked in my sitch. It might not work in everyone's sitch.

I like what you said about operating unlike humans. That really is what DBing is. As humans we have emotions, and trying to control those emotions is difficult. I've read a lot of sitches here and other places, and it is amazing that those that can behave the most robotic through their sitches are the ones that are most successful at R. For most of the first 2 months of my sitch I failed at that.

RR17 I hear you about the previous sitch. My W had her first EA in 2005. And much like your sitch from 5 years ago we didn't deal with it properly. We aren't making that mistake this time and likely if you do R you won't either. But I do feel, and this is just me, that those old sitches are just that, old sitches. And these new sitches are new sitches. While the new sitches may have come about due to the old sitches, we have to realize that we can't claim that time that passed between the sitches. When I talk about a relatively short period I was more talking about the fact that 5/18 move out is only a month past at this point.

Every sitch is different (as I stated) and in your sitch maybe a year is still a short time. Maybe it is a longtime. You would totally know more than I would! But regardless if it is 1 day, 1 month, 1 year, 10 years, the point still stands that DBing and R are not on our timetable. It will happen as it naturally happens.

I still think it is hugely significant that 5/18 came an went without your W moving out. But as always in these things, time will tell!