A familiar story with questions. VI

[RR17]

Steve, all point well taken. And hindsight is 20/20. I tell my mistakes as well as successes if it seems appropriate.

However, let me caution you on the overly sensitive LBS thing. Because this is something I am seeing more and more with LBSs. Believe it or not, sometimes the problem with something the WAS/WS does or says is with the LBS, not the WAS. What do I mean? A comment said in jest (I am trying to get people out of my house!) is taken the wrong way due to the sitch. If your W had said that and your marriage was perfect, then you would never have taken that comment the way you did. This is why it is important to take a minute before reacting. Because a LBS' initial reaction is USUALLY the wrong one. At least until they get really good at DBing and detachment.

No excuse, but one of my challenges with this forum is it is almost impossible to express all the details or dynamic in any given sitch. Example: This family friend W has a history of being anti-marriage. She would like nothing more than to take my W under her wing and team up against the bad men. I've seen her do it. W know this and we have distanced our selves from them because of tampering during W's A, years ago. Get it?

[SteveLW]

Steve, all point well taken. And hindsight is 20/20. I tell my mistakes as well as successes if it seems appropriate.

However, let me caution you on the overly sensitive LBS thing. Because this is something I am seeing more and more with LBSs. Believe it or not, sometimes the problem with something the WAS/WS does or says is with the LBS, not the WAS. What do I mean? A comment said in jest (I am trying to get people out of my house!) is taken the wrong way due to the sitch. If your W had said that and your marriage was perfect, then you would never have taken that comment the way you did. This is why it is important to take a minute before reacting. Because a LBS' initial reaction is USUALLY the wrong one. At least until they get really good at DBing and detachment.

No excuse, but one of my challenges with this forum is it is almost impossible to express all the details or dynamic in any given sitch. Example: This family friend W has a history of being anti-marriage. She would like nothing more than to take my W under her wing and team up against the bad men. I've seen her do it. W know this and we have distanced our selves from them because of tampering during W's A, years ago. Get it?

Very solid point. It is true that it is hard to give full context to everything. Though I do remember you mentioning this friend before.

Even with that context, I think you probably shouldn't have confronted over that. If nothing else now she will be more diligent about covering her tracks.

[RR17]

Very solid point. It is true that it is hard to give full context to everything. Though I do remember you mentioning this friend before.

Even with that context, I think you probably shouldn't have confronted over that. If nothing else now she will be more diligent about covering her tracks

True, I shouldn't have. Most of the time I don't feel the need to look. Sometimes something happens and I just want to know. Confronting her is another thing. This pissed me off.

Her explanation seemed honest. I put her on the spot and she's not quick like that. As you said it was the context and the characters involved.
I don't regret doing it. If she gets more diligent, so be it. If anything the event has inspired movement. Limbo gets old.
And things were getting too comfortable in this new normal. This adds perspective and a segway for me to pull further away. I am watching a movie with W as I type. lol
The pouty persona has all but gone. I have gained more distance. During the fight, she accused me of not listening to her. I said "S*&%, all I do is listen." This seemed to cause pause. I believe she realized that I have been listening and confirming. But who knows?
Tomorrow night I will be MIA.

Steve, don't think I don't appreciate your observations. I do. Even if it wasn't the intended point of the story. I can always use an honest constructive opinion. Thank you.

[RR17]

RR-thanks for sharing your experiences with us. It may become valuable someday should we need it. Blessings

Thanks for your continued support.

[RR17]

Okay, gang, it's been nearly a month but I figured it's time to check in.

Limbo is still in place but with modifications. We still make time to watch movies together a couple times a week. I pick out the movie and for the most part, the time is held sacred. Meaning it is intentional and interruptions are limited. I usually cook. Like I often did when we were dating. But no expectations.
No intimacy. No R talks until today.

This morning. after a couple months of no sex and recent positive vibes, I decided to try initiating. I changed my approach and prepared myself for rejection. And rejection is what I got. But it was different. She took the opportunity to start the R talk. I listened. Only interrupting to seek clarity. W talks in vague abstracts that she assumes that the listener just has to understand what she means. Like assembling a puzzle with missing pieces.
At one point she explained how her life had changed and that she felt that mine had remained the same. With a light-hearted wit I explained all the things that had been taken from me and low and behold, she listened without simply dismissing or looking for a slight inaccuracy to discredit my statements. I felt heard.
W also explained how her life had not turned out like she planned and how she was aware that other people had it a whole lot worse. She referenced a story about D19s classmate that recently died of cancer. Sensing that W felt guilty for her feelings. I got off track and suggested that we have to practice gratitude. And how it didn't always come organically and why it was called practice. I know, I know. Old, problem-solving habits die hard. Anyway..
I did get a little preachy when I pointed out how some of the dynamics in our M/R had improved, like the detachment and gained autonomy in both of us. No I didn't divulge any DB secretes. And W agreed.
I have often felt that W assumed that my lack of trust in her was some sort of hold-back that I was harboring, a weapon of sorts to use against her when I needed. In an ongoing effort to explain that this trust-deficiency was not by choice but because W hadn't done the work to restore it. I reminded her of a recent time when she said she was at Bible Study with her women's group. Well, when she got home and said hi, I realized that she wasn't wearing a bra. Fancy that? If I know anything about this woman it is that she doesn't go out in public braless.
Well, without fully engaging my suspicious mind, I decided to dig a bit before defaulting to my imagination. I didn't just approach the obvious question, I guess for fear of starting a defensive fight or some lie. But, with some minor digging, I learned that that night's meeting was more of a social one and they went swimming at one of the girl's pools and she must have changed back into the clothes she wore over her one piece suit on the way there. A story I later confirmed with some snooping. I found out that at least some of these ladies were baptized, but W never mentioned.
Well, I explained this example to W during our R talk today. I explained it from my perspective and how it could easily and reasonably cause suspicion that I had to overcome in spite of my feelings.
Low and behold, she apologized without hesitation. This is huge. She could have very well dismissed or belittled the whole story. She did not.

W acknowledged enjoying these movies together. I don't dare call them a date. lol

Later I thanked her for feeling heard. She said the same. This is also an unusual and different reaction.

I sometimes feel like I have allowed things to slip into some dissatisfying New-Normal. I usually find a way to gain more space when this happens. If you've followed my threads you will know that I am adamant about a proper reconciliation as defined here in this group. I have not changed on this point.

Anyway, that is where things are. I welcome any questions or feedback. You guys, even the ones that no longer reply to my threads, have all been a big part of my journey, and for that I thank you.

[LoneWlf]

RR - sounds to me that although things are not moving at a rapid pace. Things are still moving forward. For this I commend you. It seems like she still continues to enjoy time with you with the movies. You also mentioned that you felt heard- another positive. Let's celebrate these small victories with caution of having no future expectations. I too believe in not compromising in your proper reconciliation because if this is done hastily and wrong it is like building your house on a foundation of sand . Done with proper care to detail it will be a solid foundation on rock. Continue to move forward and be the lighthouse. Blessings!

[SteveLW]

I sometimes feel like I have allowed things to slip into some dissatisfying New-Normal. I usually find a way to gain more space when this happens. If you've followed my threads you will know that I am adamant about a proper reconciliation as defined here in this group. I have not changed on this point.

Out of curiousity, what does that look like to you? The "proper reconciliation"? And more to the point how do you see it beginning?

[RR17]

I had hoped to post a link but I am unable to search back more than 3 months. This I copied this months ago from a Sandi2 post. I agree with these things. Remember this journey started for me nearly 5 years ago with an EA and I allowed it to slip into a miserable new normal. If you guys don't seek many of these, I expect you will end up back here again.

Proper reconciliation:

This list has some of the things the WW will need to do in order to reconcile, honestly and completely, with her H. If you see something that needs to be added, feel free. 

These are in no special order.

1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind.
2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss.
3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss,
and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her.
4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself.
5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around.
6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy.
7). To be remorseful.  If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H.  She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly.
8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M.
9).  To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal.
10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR.
11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR.  And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her.
12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored.  To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings.
13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H. 
13).  And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.

 Keep in mind, these things will not all come about at one time. Neither will she be able to know without someone guiding her.  It is really important she has help or coaching from an unbiased source who is pro-marriage and is familiar with piecing after an affair. 

How do I see this starting? With a commitment.

[RR17]

RR - sounds to me that although things are not moving at a rapid pace. Things are still moving forward. For this I commend you. It seems like she still continues to enjoy time with you with the movies. You also mentioned that you felt heard- another positive. Let's celebrate these small victories with caution of having no future expectations. I too believe in not compromising in your proper reconciliation because if this is done hastily and wrong it is like building your house on a foundation of sand . Done with proper care to detail it will be a solid foundation on rock. Continue to move forward and be the lighthouse. Blessings!

I couldn't agree more with the foundation built on sand. I not celebrating anything yet. Fact is, I feel like I am settling for less than I deserve. To say this is not happening rapidly is an understatement. She has been out of the MBR for just over a year now. I often wonder if it were financially feasible if she would be gone. I'm tired of feeling the threat.

[SteveLW]

I had hoped to post a link but I am unable to search back more than 3 months. This I copied this months ago from a Sandi2 post. I agree with these things. Remember this journey started for me nearly 5 years ago with an EA and I allowed it to slip into a miserable new normal. If you guys don't seek many of these, I expect you will end up back here again.

Proper reconciliation:

This list has some of the things the WW will need to do in order to reconcile, honestly and completely, with her H. If you see something that needs to be added, feel free. 

These are in no special order.

1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind.
2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss.
3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss,
and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her.
4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself.
5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around.
6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy.
7). To be remorseful.  If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H.  She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly.
8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M.
9).  To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal.
10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR.
11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR.  And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her.
12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored.  To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings.
13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H. 
13).  And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.

 Keep in mind, these things will not all come about at one time. Neither will she be able to know without someone guiding her.  It is really important she has help or coaching from an unbiased source who is pro-marriage and is familiar with piecing after an affair. 

How do I see this starting? With a commitment.

The reason I ask is because rarely starts with a big bang. Usually it's a whole bunch of baby steps. Most people don't even realize they are in R until weeks or months after she took the first step towards it. So if you're looking for that one grand moment where she has a come to the truth moment, then you'll be sorely disappointed. Take this lady interaction as a possible step. But.... be prepared for setbacks and for even smaller steps. Remember marathon not a sprint.