One word of caution on sharing our sitch with friends and family. Be careful. Since your husband is a conflict avoider telling others may be something that is difficult for him to come to terms with, and that can complicate the potential future R. I know I had to walk this line with my W. If I had told my family and friends I am pretty sure we wouldn't be in piecing and R today. She too is a big conflict avoider due to her childhood with a father who was very abusive to her mother.
So just keep that in mind. Try to limit who you confide in as it could be a barrier to your H returning to the MR.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
TJT, I would suggest NOT being sexually intimate with him right now. He shouldn't be able to eat cake like that. Telling you he wants a D and then continuing sexual contact with you is not okay, in my opinion.
He fulfill his "primal needs" with self-gratification if he needs to. I don't think you are helping the situation or yourself in being able to GAL and work on yourself by continuing to have sex given what is going in. You can't sex him back.
M: 40 W: 37 T: 20 MR: 13 S13, S9, S4 BD: 1/29/18 Sep: 4/23/18 (I moved out) 8/24/18 I come home, she moves out
If you want to get out of the hole, drop the shovel.
Thanks Steve. I guess I'm wondering what would stop my H from thinking I'm telling them even if I really wasn't? Unless I bring it up and say, "Just FYI, I'm not telling anybody anything" but that would seem sort of like having an R conversation, or perceived as wanting to start one, so I hesitate to do that.
Basically I've only told a few friends and they are people I really trust, and quite frankly are the main ones who will help me GAL. I don't think I could do it as effectively if they didn't know what was up (and also, I'm sure at some point they'd wonder where the hell H is every time). I've told them not to let on to anyone else that they know, especially if by some miracle we are all hanging out together (with H) again.
But like I said, even if I really wasn't telling anyone I feel like H would probably think that. I mean, he knows he's hurt me and now I'm hanging out with my friends much more often than usual. It would seem to be a normal assumption to make so either way, I don't know how to mitigate the potential impacts of him thinking that.
I did talk myself out of going to the neighbor's house and telling them, though! I feel terrible that we seem like such stand-offish neighbors because H doesn't want to socialize with anyone and part of me just really wanted them to know that obviously we are going through something and it's not that we don't like them... but in that case I definitely don't know them well enough to trust that they wouldn't say anything and ultimately, I just can't worry about them or what they think of us right now.
H:39 W:30 M:4 T:9
05/2018: H says "ILYBNILWY", BD 07/2018: Discovered A, confronted 09/2018: PA + other details emerge; H moved out 12/2018: I filed 03/2019: Divorce finalized
So yesterday and today while H has been working I visited with friends. It has been a nice distraction and I think it's helped, but I am definitely drained as an introvert. It's taken a lot of my energy.
H came home from work and seemed a little irritated, in general. We talked about a few things like work and his plans for the rest of the weekend (actually, he asked me what my plans were first) and throughout the conversation he just seemed to have these moments of agitation, for whatever reason. I tried not to show that it bothered me but in my head I was of course wondering what his deal was again (I wasn't forcing him to talk or being overly pressing about his day, etc.)
One thing that has "pinched" right now is that when he left a minute ago to do another shift at work, he stood in the doorway to say he was leaving and asked if I needed anything. Up until now, we've at least still hugged upon leaving or arriving (albeit not always great ones) and even this morning when he left for the first shift (while I was still in bed) he gave me a hug and told me he loved me...
I just keep telling myself over and over what's been said here, that I can't try to make sense of these things or read into them or get my hopes up when he's acting "nice". It is what it is.To that end, should I say I love you back if he says it to me first? Should I hug him back if he hugs me? I feel like NOT responding to those things could be perceived as me being depressed or angsty since it's kind of hard to smile and seem pleasant while staving off a hug or as a response to saying "I love you" without verbalizing it back.
He has continued to ask if I need anything before he heads home, too (something he's always done in our relationship). And last night he did text to tell me to drive home safe since I was going to be getting home late.
While I am getting better at letting things go without spending too much time analyzing them, it's still SO odd to me and gives me pause in the moment, and of course is still maddening. It can be so easy to feel jacked around even from the smallest things.
For the record, would my situation be considered WAS? Since there doesn't seem to be an A at this point? Could it be MLC without an A? Just curious where this falls here.
Lastly for today, I just read the below thread for the first time and I am wondering what this means for me, because given the examples above, I start to think more and more if the conflicting behavior is just the result of H wanting to control the situation, as described here by Zues.
If my H said he wants a D but hasn't done ANYTHING else tactically around that (no papers, no setting of boundaries or expressing any timeline on his end, and I'm pretty sure not talking to anyone else about this) and yet is not wearing wedding ring, not being affectionate, not telling others, etc. I'm confused whether I should just GAL and 180 and wait to see if he actually takes action toward filing or at least separating, or if I need to do something more? Again in my sitch there doesn't seem to be an A at this point (and I don't believe there is).
Maybe I will be proven wrong one day but until then, am I taking the right steps by letting this ride out, since we can't believe what he says? My plan was to GAL and 180 until one of two things happened: 1) either I find out about other circumstances that would require me to create bigger boundaries, like an A happening, or 2) I feel the emotional strain of being in "limbo" gets too much to where I feel it would be better for MY well-being to move forward with the D (still something I really would not want to initiate).
By all means I don't want to ask him to make steps toward something that I don't want to begin with, but after reading Zues' thread and reflecting on other behavior I may have enabled in the past, I'm definitely worried that he may just be trying to get his own crap together so that WHEN he does it, it's easier for him. It's so hard because I just don't know truly why he's not acting on it...e.g. if he's not fully convinced it's the right thing (despite what he's told me), if he's waiting to see if the changes I'm making last, etc.
Do I point out at some point (or, now) that dude, you asked for a divorce, but I don't see anything happening so in the meantime here's some things that have to change until you make a solid step one way or the other (and if so, what should those things be)?? Again I feel like that would be having the R conversation, and I just took this limbo period as the gift of time but I know it might not be that simple..
I don't want to be naive, but if it ends up being that he is really just taking advantage of the situation until HE is ready, I was accepting that as something he has to live with knowing he strung me along. Except I'm sure he could rationalize it by the fact that he did tell me that's what he wanted, despite his lack of swift action. So I know it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to protect myself and hold him accountable for what he's said, but aside from GAL and 180s I'm not fully clear on what else I should be doing or saying to him specifically in this case....ughghggh.
Obviously it would be nice if someone could both say what they mean and act what they say...
H:39 W:30 M:4 T:9
05/2018: H says "ILYBNILWY", BD 07/2018: Discovered A, confronted 09/2018: PA + other details emerge; H moved out 12/2018: I filed 03/2019: Divorce finalized
Like its been said a few times here... work on yourself. Be the spouse only a fool would leave...
Accept its out of your hands, and only you can control you...
I'm in limbo as well, I think for some of us, depending on our personality, that unknown, no specific horizon to work toward is the hard part. It is for me. I'm a do'er...
TJT, please read the detachment thread. Yes it's okay to reciprocate when he says ILY or hugs you. Just never initiate. GAL helps you detach. 180s make you the spouse only a fool would leave. See how it works?
You are still too focused on him. We've all been there. We focus on our WAS way more than we should be. Lots of WAS make their BD proclamation and then sit and do nothing about it. My W did that. In fact, looking backI almost think she did it to get me off her trail on her EA.
But as cdn2a said, focus on you. DETACH. And yes all of this is easier said than done but nothing worthwhile is easy.
And yes he's a WAS. TJT I'm detecting that you haven't read DB/DR. Please get a copy of DR and read it. A lot of this will clear up for you.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
TJT, I have been reading up on your sitch for a few days now. I see a lot of similarities in our personalities, some in our sitches too. I do not know if mine is a WAH or WH yet, well with us at the doorstep of D maybe it doesnt matter. You are restless and trying to control the sitch that you really cannot do anything about. Have you read thru all of Cadet's homework links, there is a lot of helpful info there. It is still quite early for you so it is natural to react to Hs moods and behaviors but whenever you need to vent out or seek advice use this forum and it will help immensely. For now pull back and watch what happens. I will follow along and chime in whenever I have anything to offer. Take care - Arshi
Thanks cdn. It's true that I don't do well with uncertainty. I've actually been trying to work on that in other areas of life (aka work) but never imagined I'd have to do it in my marriage!
Steve, thanks for clarifying some of my questions. You're also right, I have not fully read DB, I have just tried to read as much as I can on this forum at the moment. Between the 180s and how to GAL and detach, etc. I've taken some notes as reminders but it's all a lot to remember - not to mention the general confusion caused by the sitch and trying to practice these behaviors I'm totally not used to!
After reflecting on it briefly this morning, I think part of it is me looking for what's unique in my situation simply out of fear that whatever framework or solution might not be 100% the right thing to do in every case. But I get it, nobody is promising anything, there are no guarantees, and I'm aware of the flaws in some of my thinking. I just have to get past the fear...
So, quick question, is there a digital version of the book anywhere? Part of the reason I haven't ordered it yet is because I really want to avoid the possibility of him finding it and having to always hide it. I will do it if necessary but digital would be ideal for me. ---------------------------------------- As an update from yesterday, after H came home from his second shift of work I had started to make dinner. Not particularly for HIM, to be clear that I'm not trying to "win him over" or whatever, but obviously because I needed to eat too. My outlook was very much that if he wanted to eat, he could, but if not, whatever. We had talked about dinner earlier in the day, discussed leftovers vs. making a new meal, and had left it open-ended at that point.
He did eat and talked about other things about his day in a totally normal way. In these moments I have been making sure to look at him directly and pausing to show attention if I'm doing something else when he starts to talk, as advised.
After dinner, it seemed he was doing small things to be nice. I admit sometimes I am too focused on what he is doing (and I will work on that) but to be clear, sometimes I mention these things because while I do take note of them, I also just want to share what's happening on this forum in a way that paints a more clear picture of the day-to-day stuff in our relationship and helps people understand what I'm going through. I think I am at least slowly doing better in taking steps to detach as far as not letting my feelings be dependent on what he's doing.
After I cleaned up from dinner it was the normal nighttime routine. Him on the couch, watching sports, on his phone/iPad, and me doing my thing and getting comfortable in the bedroom. I always do make sure to go out and tell him when I'm going to bed if he doesn't come in to say goodnight first (happens sporadically). Since all of this has been going on, I have adjusted the past few days to at least NOT initiate saying "I love you" when I tell him I'm going to bed, and sometimes he'll say it but sometimes not. Last night he didn't so that was that. And as an additional note in my medical journal (haha, I'm kidding about that but you get where I'm going with it) he again seemed randomly annoyed by the "interruption". But I've again slowly prepared myself more each day for that to happen, so that's another positive step for me I think.
That said, this morning again as H left for work, he did give me a hug, kiss (not on the lips), and said I love you. Likewise, I've been trying to prepare myself for those actions as well and I do feel like I'm doing better not letting them change my thoughts/feelings one way or another. It's definitely a little harder when it's a display of affection I have to neutralize though. ---------------------------------------- I am going to be re-reading the detaching thread over the next week and continuing to read through other resources as I get time. I will be going on a business trip this week so I will have time. I had gone on a shorter trip for a few days when this all first happened and didn't do all the things.
Traveling while going through this is very hard even though I know in other ways it's good. I am going to try to do the full 180 this time and never initiate the texting (calling is not an issue... for whatever reason, for the entirety of our relationship, when one of us is out of town we only text. I had brought it up a few times in the past and told him sometimes I'd like to Skype or whatever, especially when I'm gone longer, but he says it's just not his thing AND I can corroborate that with most every other person in his life he rarely talks live on the phone. If he can get away with it, he'll just text).
So, anyway, I'm pretty nervous about that, just because (as the detaching process mentions) I tend to think how I would feel if he went on a business trip and didn't seem interested in texting me or whatever. Of all the rationalizations for not detaching, that's the one I'm most guilty of - the feeling that I am being cold-hearted if I do it, or that it's sending the wrong message. I want to choose to always take the higher road...I am honestly NOT in the mindset of trying to "fix" him or that I need to help him or that I don't think I have logical reasons to detach... I just want to be a decent human being and hold myself accountable for things I contribute to the sitch too.
And while I have absolutely gotten to a place where I know I can only control myself, it really [censored] that to know that it will not guarantee the same realization on his end. I keep reminding myself that continuing to do all the things I've done up to this point obviously doesn't guarantee that either, so just bear with me here! Arsh - I agree and know you are right that this boils down to me struggling with the realization that sometimes, no matter what we do, life just happens TO us and even if I did everything right, it might not work out the way I want.
If you all haven't noticed already (hah), I'm very introspective and expressive about those reflections. It helps me get things organized in my mind toward clarity. This is typically why my best intentions to make a short post always end up longer...it ends up being its own sort of therapy for me. And having witnesses to it helps.
Needless to say I'll be spending some time on the forum during this next week to give an update or two on how it's going. Thank you all for your continued interest, concern, and responses.
H:39 W:30 M:4 T:9
05/2018: H says "ILYBNILWY", BD 07/2018: Discovered A, confronted 09/2018: PA + other details emerge; H moved out 12/2018: I filed 03/2019: Divorce finalized
Unfortunately, MWD's books are not available digitally. I agree that would make reading them so much easier. My suggestion would be to find it at the local library, check it out, then hide as well as you can. In my opinion it is better to read it and have him find it, than to not read it.
Stop going out to tell him you are going to bed. That is "initiating" even if you are not the one to hug, kiss and say ILY. When he leave in the morning, do not see him off. If he wants a hug, a kiss and to say ILY he'll come find you.
Detachment is almost impossible if you continue to act like you did prior to BD. This is the mistake almost all of us make, is that after BD we begin to even more to institute a goodbye or hello ritual. To be consistent with affection and ILYs. The problem is they work against you. Make HIM pursue you. Make HIM try to hold onto these rituals.
You might think "well he'll never do that!" At first maybe he won't, but as he starts to miss that then he may go to initiating it. So hang in there and be strong!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So, anyway, I'm pretty nervous about that, just because (as the detaching process mentions) I tend to think how I would feel if he went on a business trip and didn't seem interested in texting me or whatever. Of all the rationalizations for not detaching, that's the one I'm most guilty of - the feeling that I am being cold-hearted if I do it, or that it's sending the wrong message. I want to choose to always take the higher road...I am honestly NOT in the mindset of trying to "fix" him or that I need to help him or that I don't think I have logical reasons to detach... I just want to be a decent human being and hold myself accountable for things I contribute to the sitch too.
this mindset is going to hurt you... as well as your going to him each night to say you are going to bed... this behavior is what i was referring to when i said DETACHING and GAL is HARD--and most LBS cannot do it... and your behavior/thinking here is what LBS use to excuse why they should not detach... he needs to get to a place where he finds himself without you... your chances to be warm and attentive are gone since BD... your chances to be warm and attentive will return should you get to a place of piecing... but you will not get there if you do not mentally move on... and you cannot fake it... and yes--as i said before--he will complain... he will tell you this is why he is leaving you... he will make you feel guilty... it will feel wrong... unnatural... but you cannot fold at that point...
look at it this way... if he leaves you, eventually you are going to have to detach--you will have no choice... but you can initiate the detaching as a means to save your M, and you have control over that... in this way, you do have a choice...
