Can I really do this #4

[Dtrmned]

Thanks Davide,
It was a very emotional moment for me (even though it was at 5am!). Been on my mind all day today. And unfortunately has put me in my head as well. AS asked how long I can do this and I truly don't know. Do I need to push and ask the questions to my W? Do I just leave it alone and let it play out? I know any question will be seen as pursuit. Any action would be seen the same way. I would desire only to enjoy the last few weeks of summer together and find a way to bond and interact. I would also love to say that regardless of the outcome, I want my kids to have a better summer, but I would be just deluding myself. W is just shut off this week and it is really getting to me. Working more on the GAL and would love to take the kids out more, but with D under restriction, this kind of limits everything.

Cheeseless tunnel I know, but I wish I knew what my W was thinking. It has been a month since her proclamation to set a mediation appointment that of course never happened and this limbo thing is wearing on me.

Talked with my oldest sister who I am very close with during this (she helped me through the financial stuff as well). She agrees with me that my wife is an overall good person and is just greatly confused as to which way she wants to go. She also says that she would not have put up with this for so long and that I have the patience of a saint. I am not a martyr nor do I want to be a saint. I just want my W back and rebuild our MR and our family.

[AnotherStander]

AS, I must have read your post 5 times yesterday. Realizing more and more that I probably repulse her every moment is so confusing to me.

It's years of reading Sandi's posts that really helped me to understand how a WAW sees her husband while she's in the thick of the fog. I think Sandi may even have used the word "repulsive". It is really hard to understand, isn't it? This woman who swore to stay with you for life and did spend many years with you through thick and thin suddenly can't stand your touch or to be around you. It makes no sense. And that's EXACTLY what you need to wrap your mind around- it DOESN'T make sense! Nothing in her head makes a lot of sense right now. You can't figure her out, she can't even figure herself out.

DB'ing again is so contradictory to what you feel you should be doing.

Exactly, because our intuition tells us how to respond to a loving partner who is just upset at us for some minor infraction. But the very things that work in that situation are things that drive a WAW right out the door.

I see many paths to an R in my head (I know this is wrong, but I can't help it some days).

It's perfectly fine to visualize that, I personally am all about keeping hope alive as it keeps us energized and keeps us from being depressed and hopeless. Hopelessness is self-fulfilling, if you sulk around convinced that your M is over then it will happen. I just hate to see people here do that (and there are so soooo many) because it sabotages their recon chances. I remember reading a story of this woman whose H walked out and she said "you just go do whatever you think you need to do, I'll be here whenever you get your act together." He went off and had affairs and went on drinking binges and bought a sports car and generally made an ass of himself. She went about living her own life. A few years later he went crawling back and they reconciled and got along fantastic after that. The thing I love about her story is SHE NEVER, EVER GAVE UP HOPE! She knew, 100% that they would recon. There was never a doubt in her mind. She never felt sorry for herself, cried herself to sleep or any of that because she knew they would end up back together. That's the power of positive thinking.

An observation I'd like some input on. Her health issues are huge. We have dealt with them for a decade and they are not made up. Weird thing is that over the last 3 months since we changed insurance plans, she has pretty much ceased going to the dr. She had one (of many) dr. appointments yesterday. This has been scheduled and rescheduled this will be the 3rd time now. I got home and asked her how it went. She said she didn't feel like it and rescheduled again. She used to have 3-4 dr appointments a month. Is she just giving up?

Hard to say what she's thinking, but my guess would be that she feels like she's already going through so much that she doesn't want the additional "burden" of dealing with her health issues too. Basically she might be feeling "overwhelmed".

But, if she can just blow them off, stop taking some of her medications and not "worry" or deal with her issues, are they really issues?

Well, denial doesn't make it go away. My grandmother kept blowing off doc appointments when she got a lump on her breast because she didn't want to deal with the inconvenience. By the time she went she had a horrific, nasty black growth (I saw it once when a nurse was changing the dressing and it was awful) that was terminal. She passed away a few months later. I am not at all saying your W is terminal, just suggesting she may have that same "I don't want to deal with this right now" mindset going on.

And AS, I am truly contemplating your last sentence if this is acceptable to me, and if it is presently, how long it will be.

My point wasn't to make you set a deadline, but rather point you in the direction of accepting that you don't necessarily need a deadline. You have as much or as little time as you want. If you are unsure then my advice is always the same- you need more time. Don't push to end things until you are 100% sure it's what you want. Well, maybe 95%, I'm not sure we can ever be 100% on something like that.

[Dtrmned]

Just looking for some input.

Again, nothing happening except with is a lot colder and distant this week. Many issues could involve this and that is why I am reaching out. This could be health related (always something, but she has had a virus and been exhausted for about a week or so). The situation with our D not liking me, being grounded, etc. can't make the summer a "fun" place at the moment at home. Zero desire for my W to move forward on anything with a S, D or even her looking for a job. She did make dinner for all of us last night (D declined to join as she is still in her rebelliousness). But we had a nice dinner and then watched some tv. I have given her a bunch more space this week. She keeps her distance as well. I don't know if she is in her head or what is going on. This morning she got up at 4am. Went downstairs. I get up at 5 and workout. By the time I was done, she was asleep on the couch.

Just unsure. Not reading anything into anything, but we haven't had any conversations about anything other than what to get at the grocery or I need this prescription picked up, etc.

How long will this last for? It is very difficult to think about ANY future (with or without her) in this state.

I would appreciate if anyone has experienced this and the best way to handle it. I'm just frustrated and lonely.

[SteveLW]

Yep most all of us have been through it. The problem is that you are looking at only two possible futures, and there are three. You are looking at your future with her where nothing changes. No one wants that. You are looking at your futrue without her. Better than #1, but the LBS often struggles mightily with this idea. The third is, if you are patient and consistent, a new MR with her.

That's the goal you have to keep in your head. In fact, you shouldn't even entertain a future that looks like #1. You should be bracing yourself for a future that looks like #2. And you should be doing things that give you the best chance for a future that looks like #3.

Limbo is the gift of time. TIme allows you to be consistent in your GAL, 180s and detaching. IT could take your W days, weeks, months or even years to notice. But the only way she will notice is for you to be consistent with your DBing over time.

So don't look at it as "how much longer". Look at it is this is a journey on a path to a better future!

[Dtrmned]

Thanks. I am not even considering option #1.
That MR is over and done.

[AnotherStander]

Just unsure. Not reading anything into anything, but we haven't had any conversations about anything other than what to get at the grocery or I need this prescription picked up, etc.

How long will this last for? It is very difficult to think about ANY future (with or without her) in this state.

Indefinitely. Some WAS's can live in limbo forever. Hardly any LBS's can though. At some point you'll get fed up with limbo and take action. It might be tomorrow, it might be 6 months from now. But the bottom line is you shouldn't live with the status quo hoping she changes, because she won't. Not as long as you maintain the status quo.

I would appreciate if anyone has experienced this and the best way to handle it. I'm just frustrated and lonely.

Well of course you are, but you CAN do something about it, and you can do it WITHOUT her. Your loneliness isn't because of her, it's because of you. Get out, GAL, chew your loneliness up and spit the pieces out and kick them. Find GAL activities that involve other people. I've recommended Crossfit here a lot, because not only will it get you in killer shape and help you to realize you are capable of things you never thought possible, but it is a very strong social environment. When you grunt and sweat and hurt and damned near cry with the same people several times a week it develops a bond like no other. You will find yourself with a bunch of new friends even if you don't really try. And most boxes have activities outside of working out so you can socialize there too. But regardless of what you choose, choose things that expose you to other people. A lot of us became so beta in our M's that we've separated ourselves from all our guy friends. Time to right that wrong. Men NEED other men in their lives. It helps us stay centered and reminds us of how men act and think and live and behave outside the M. I needed it after BD and it took me months to get that back but man, once I did I realized I could be perfectly happy by myself, that I didn't need someone for ANYTHING, and that I needed to be a force to be reckoned with because so many people in my life aren't and need to see what that looks like. So get out there and be the rock, get your man-card back

[sandi2]

Just Sad, I have written about three responses to your recent posts......but each time I would delete them. So, it seems I go down a cheeseless tunnel from time to time, too. The reason I would not complete the post and send it was b/c I figured you would see it much too harsh.....and it probably was. I realize the LBH needs the board as a place to vent his emotions. With that said, I'll have to admit there are times I want to shake you and tell you to snap out of it. Board members want to know if a WW will snap out of it......and I wonder when the LBH will do the same. ((hugs))

You are one of the most "giving" men I've had the privilege of meeting here on the board. You are very gentle and kind........which makes it extra hard for me to toughen you up. (Just kidding.) FWIW, I know what is like to deal with teenage girls. And God have mercy on the man who has a WW and a rebellious teenage daughter! They are about two peas in the same pod. They both act out when they don't get what they want, and they blame you. They will sulk, test you, and manipulate. And......they will take you down, if you show weakness. Sounds dreadful, doesn't it? It is.

When God gave you this family, you were also given an awesome responsibility. Don't confuse punishment with teaching consequences/discipline. Don't interpret lovingness to mean spoiling. If you will discipline your children with wisdom and love, they will grow to love and honor you. You are the only stable parent in this home at the moment, and your children need you to be strong even if when it hurts.

Do you know who is a girl's first love? It's her father. He's, also, the first one she learns to try out her little feminine tricks. Mom can see right through her, but daddy is often blinded. Anyway, she will watch her father and his role in their family. If he disciplines with wisdom and love.......she will adore him. If he doesn't, she will disrespect him. I know it hurts to see your D14 angry at you, but I promise if you try to gain her love by not enforcing rules when she's growing up......you will not have a close, loving relationship. She's at that age where she's going to be angry at anyone who shows authority in her life, but she will get over it. It's part of growing up.

She is also learning by watching to see how her parents interact. If her mom belittles dad and there are no repercussions, then the daughter gets the message that it's okay to speak disrespectfully to dad (and to her future H). This is the behavior set before her. If mom rules the roost, and dad follows her orders along with the kids......the daughter will learn that is the role of the W. She will imitate the behavior of her mother. So, if the father really loves his family and cares what kind of adults they become, he will lovingly enforce discipline in the home. He will require obedience from his children, and respectful behavior from every member in the family, or enforce consequences. That is the burden that comes with the responsibility of being the head of the family. It is critical that D14 (as well as your son) to see their father as a strong, positive role model in their lives. Yes, the mother's role is critical also, but at the moment, we are discussing your role.

I want to share something extremely personal with you. I had a child who had a very wayward spirit throughout her teens and even her early 20's. My H was passive and would not discipline the kids. So, it was left to me to do the disciplining. I was the "bad guy" while they were growing up. One reason my D rebelled so badly, was due to a disease that required her to live a disciplined lifestyle......and she did not want to conform. After many years, the disease won, but she had lived so much longer than the doctors had given her. Her final words were spoken to me. Not to her dad, her H, or even her kids.........but me. As I stood over her hospital bed, she whispered in my ear, "I love you". Me.....the bad guy! The one who had used tough love when she was growing up. Me........the one the teenager thought was too strict, and accused of being mean and wanting to make her life miserable. Me.......the one who was unfair and wouldn't allow her to do whatever she wanted. Me.................her parent.

[LoneWlf]

I want to share something extremely personal with you. I had a child who had a very wayward spirit throughout her teens and even her early 20's. My H was passive and would not discipline the kids. So, it was left to me to do the disciplining. I was the "bad guy" while they were growing up. One reason my D rebelled so badly, was due to a disease that required her to live a disciplined lifestyle......and she did not want to conform. After many years, the disease won, but she had lived so much longer than the doctors had given her. Her final words were spoken to me. Not to her dad, her H, or even her kids.........but me. As I stood over her hospital bed, she whispered in my ear, "I love you". Me.....the bad guy! The one who had used tough love when she was growing up. Me........the one the teenager thought was too strict, and accused of being mean and wanting to make her life miserable. Me.......the one who was unfair and wouldn't allow her to do whatever she wanted. Me.................her parent.

Very touching story- My condolences. But we could all learn something from this. Discipline is part of Love - be the stable parent. Be aware but do things with Love as your motive. Stay Well!

[Dtrmned]

Happy Monday too everyone.
I do my best to take the weekends off from the boards both for my own sanity, as well as the difficulty involved as being home with the family and making sure there would be no issues. I am not secretive with anything at home (everyone in the home knows my cell password) so I don't want to change patterns unless there was kind of a real issue come up that I needed input on.

I didn't ready AS or Sandi's posts until this morning.

AS, I agree with you. Through the years I have lost my man card. I remember back in the day when I could take on the world, I didn't care what anyone thought about me (at work, outside I care very deeply about people and my relationships). Somehow, through life. Looking back, I would change a lot, but I would change having children. My kids are amazing and are growing up right before me (as if they had any other option) and it puts me in awe most of the time on the littlest things that they do. They have changed my life for so much the better and I love them in a way only a father can love his children. Now, with that being said, having kids changed my MR immensely. My W had severe post partem depression with our D. It lasted almost a year and was very difficult to deal with. She wanted almost nothing to do with her, was struggling within herself, and I was just left to pick up and move us forward. We made it through and we were good. Then our son came. He is a miracle. 9 weeks premature, in the NICU for 7 weeks. He had his first surgery when he was 9 days old and has seen and been with more doctors during that 7 weeks than I had in my entire lifetime! WOW, we made it through. He is the most sweetest, loving, caring boy a person will ever know. He has his moments, but the world is better with him in it! And, he is a truck now. still a little small for his age, but bikes, swims, plays football, basketball and everything else. Outside of the focus issue (don't know if it is inherited from me or just all of us boys, but we all have attention and focus issues, squirrel!!). We made it through this as well and we were good.

Things started to change when my W's health issues really started in. First spinal surgery in '09 followed by at least 8 other surgeries over the next 6 years. Quite a ride thrown onto a couple with young children trying to make it through. Our marriage wasn't perfect any more like it was prior to children, but we were committed, always recommitted and we were good. W started having some issued with self identity I would say in '10. She was frustrated as she was working out really well, body building a little and looking to even compete in some competitions. The spinal surgery put a stop to that real quick. She was then stuck raising 2 children (and truthfully admitting that she loved our children very much, but wanted a life outside the home). I was fully supportive of her finding a job, volunteering, helping at their schools, whatever would make her happy. NOTHING ever happened. The health issues rocked her to her core and she just kept withdrawing from life. We became less and less social. The medications would wear her out. She had difficulties with exhaustion and fatigue. Sometimes, by the time she got ready to go out, she was too tired to make it.

This caused some issues in our MR. She focused on the kids a lot as any good mother would do. Unfortunately, that meant that I got left behind, and when I voiced my displeasure, it was not met with happiness. Granted, my way of approaching things was very challenged and I take full responsibility for that.

Sandi, Thank you for sharing something that is both so personal as well as insightful for me. I can't imagine what you went through and no parent should ever have to experience what you did. Except for the fact that you know that your child loved you. That she valued you. Even when she was rebelling and probably said things to you that rocked you to your core, she loved you with all her heart. And she knew you did as well.

At present, I am rocked to my core. My W despises me and I repulse her. Period. We had about an hour conversation this weekend regarding our plans. Funny part, is she still has no plan. She b!tche$, moans, etc. but never moves a finger to get things done. She mentioned us physically separating and I told her, at present, that I would be unable to fund any of this part and asked how she would propose we do this? I am paying the bills now, but if you want to add in any type of "support" I can't do that right now. Her response is again, "I don't know, I just need to move on". My response was " I can't do that, if you have an idea, I am open to discussing". I did make one mistake in the convo where I did ask "Is there any way of opening a discussion on staying together?" her response was just "no". I know believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. It seems she is trying to pull away more and more. She complained that in the middle of the night, we seem to end up entangled with one another and that made her feel uncomfortable. I explained her my side, that it just seemed to happen since we are in the same bed, and she just said she would like me to make a better effort to give her some space. That night, of course, we shared our bed as usual. Last night was just the same. If she is so uncomfortable with me, why doesn't she move into the spare room, or move out? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

She also wants us to get together and tell our son. I'm sure he knows a little, but is so young and caring that I don't know how to do this. ANY advice on this as to when, how, etc. is appreciated. Our D pretty much knows, but our son does not. HELP on this one please.

Again, very confused at times. GREAT family dinner last evening with W and S. D was upstairs and being a teenager.

Had the relocation conversation and I believe W has realized she won't be able to make it in the other city. I have 2 decent offers here so I am examining those to see what is best for me and the kids (with my W always considered as well).

W had a rough weekend healthwise and was on the couch almost all day yesterday. We briefly discussed on Saturday her getting a job and she said "I can't get a job right now, the kids need me, my health is shot, and I don't know if I CAN even work every". She then mentioned her "friend's" company is about to take off (sure) and she will be able to make a little money there, work whenever she wants, and no pressure. YEA, that's how the real working world works out there said anyone with a job, never!

So please input and feedback. Sandi, I know you just want to grab my face, slap me and tell me to be a man and father, suck it up, swallow the feelings and get on with it. I appreciate the 2x4's you give and you have no idea the value I put into your time and words that you send to me.

AS, I do need to find myself. To realize my identity again for who I am, what I have to offer, and be the best "me" that I can be, everyday.

With my man card "in limbo" at the moment, I can safely disclose that reading both of your posts brought tears to my eyes this morning. Having to put on a great face at work is hard, then going home and acting as if as well makes for a weird situation in bringing my self back info focus.

Again, PLEASE, comment, input, hit me upside the head. Sandi, your compliment to me is humbling. I only want to embrace, keep safe, and love my family. I know that outside of showing my children love and support, that I have to work on myself, detach more and really examine the situation. I am exhausted in the limbo stage. AS, you said it well that WW can do this forever and it the LBH that throws up his hands and says "enough" and moves on. I am not a quitter and will "never give up". I will also not believe a thing she says and only half of what she does. Her words meant nothing as her actions remained the same. This week may be different. Good or bad, I will work on myself and love and support my children.

The struggle continues. The glimmer of hope is alive and while I work on myself, I still dream for R and a new MR and a happier family!

[Dtrmned]

Just need some input today.

I Know the last post was very long and had a bunch of information from several different issues in it.

Questions:

1) Do we now, and how do we tell our son?

2) Is my W just blowing smoke? Cake eating? Both or something different?

3) Do I need to detach more by not interacting with her more and more?

4) How do I handle the accusations, proclamations, and seemingly endless frustrating conversations than end up in her stating she is moving forward and then nothing ever happening?