Hey, all. I've been lurking for a while now, just reading as much as I can. I don't have a super firm grasp on the abbreviations, so please forgive me if I type something out fully or ask you for an explanation. Also, this will be a very long read, so my apologies in advance.
I posted the following elsewhere online 27 days ago. It explains most of where we are, though some changes have happened since then, which I'll detail in a post to follow shortly:
I'm unsure what, if anything, I can do to save my marriage, and I feel like I'm dying inside.
For background, we were childhood sweethearts in middle and high school. We were on again, off again until either Junior or Senior year, and both of us dated many people in the years after. She was previously married and divorced (year long marriage), and with other people after that before we connected again. We always admitted freely that everyone we were with was always compared to each other as a standard of measure.
We've been married for twelve years, together for an additional year before that as adults. We have a 10-year-old son who is the most awesome kid on the planet. He really does encompass the best qualities of both of us.
Career-wise, my wife has always made significantly more money than me. She deserves to because she's a badass, and is fantastic at everything she's ever done. That is not to say that I'm not a hard-working husband. I've only been unemployed once during our marriage for about a week after getting laid off during the great recession in 2009. I'm not beneath doing whatever I have to in order to support my family as best I can. That said, she's always made 50% more to double what I've made. It's never really been an issue except in recent times, but not quite what you might be thinking (I'll explain momentarily). Also, earlier this year, after working a full-time job and running a side business for two years, I was able to take my side business full-time (something I feel plays into this situation quite a bit).
A little over a month ago, she had a conversation with me and dropped the "I love you, but don't know if I'm in love with you anymore" bomb. I knew we had our problems, and assumed they were like any other marriage... Something that needed to be fixed, but not realizing how deeply this was affecting her and hurting her. After this conversation, my ears were perked up, and I knew that it was more serious than I thought (I just didn't realize how much more serious).
About a week and a half after that conversation, we had an incident that involved her being gone overnight for a work thing, an argument, and her refusing to call or answer my calls. During this, I tried to convey (though unsuccessfully) that I wasn't accusing her of cheating, but that I was so scared because I realized things had gotten bad enough to put her in a position where she would consider doing so. We've always sworn that we would just call off the marriage before cheating because we both hate infidelity so much. I don't believe she has, though I can't say with 100% certainty that someone hasn't caught her interest. Either way, this was received as an accusation, hence the ignoring of calls and texts.
The next morning, we talked. It was a sobering conversation to say the least. She flat out said that she doesn't know if she wants to get divorced or not, doesn't know if she can work things out, and doesn't know that even if I changed if she'd want me.
I tore myself apart. I realized how complacent I'd become in our marriage and with myself, and how I'd taken her for granted. I also realized that the flaws of my own that I've wanted to change for so long had been thrown to the wayside because I was focused on starting my business and feeding myself excuses.
She tried multiple times over the years to express what was happening, and I either didn't hear her the way she needed me to, or passed it off as her just being upset in the moment. I'd change for a bit to smooth things over, and then go back to the same behavior. That behavior consisted of not helping around the house as much as she did, not worrying about our finances as much (the finances I alluded to earlier aren't necessarily in dire straights, but she feels like we waste so much money and she's busting her ass to earn the lions share only to see it wasted), not showing my love and appreciation for her as often or in the way she needed (I've since discovered her primary love language is acts of service). I neglected my duties as a husband, to put it bluntly. I think this is largely because my focus has been on my business the last two years, though things started going south before then, and I feed myself excuses for that, too.
These last three weeks have been a rollercoaster, going from she's considering divorce, to she had a plan for divorce and this is happening in the timeline earlier than that plan, to talks of our future together if we moved, to saying she loves me and buying me unexpected and random gifts. We've had sex three times since that first week, the first being awkward for both of us, the other two being some of, if not the best of our marriage (all initiated by her, as I would never pressure her that way). She has acknowledged changes in me and my behavior, as well as saying she's appreciated it, even if she's confused how I could do a 180 that fast. She also has said that she definitely believes I'm truly hearing her for the first time in several years. She's said she doesn't doubt my sincerity or commitment to change and to making our marriage what it needs to be, and to making her happy.
The problem is she doesn't know what she wants. Not just with me, but with life. There only thing she's said is non-negotiable is motherhood to our son. She's gotten in fantastic shape since early this year, started a new job where she finally feels empowered and respected, and has really started grabbing life by the horns. But then, she also feels like a slave having to work such long and brutal hours, paying for things and living a lifestyle that's complex and more expensive than it has to be. She's craving adventure and new experiences, even though the structure of her job is rewarding. When I ask her what she's trying to figure out, besides obviously us, she can't say. I've asked if it's where we live, how we live, her job, is there someone else she's interested in, etc., she just says she doesn't know.
I'm trying to find hope in the fact that she's still affectionate sometimes as far as kissing or snuggling in bed or on the couch while we watch a show. Also in how she will ask about long term plans and dreams, and how she bought me gifts randomly and unexpectedly since all this started. I've been speaking her primary love language as much as humanly possible, and trying to speak the others, too, in order to maximize her feeling loved and secure. I've also been working on myself. Getting in shape, taking more responsibility, being decisive (something I've been ordinarily terrible at), being more financially aware and responsible, not being angry or bitter (though I've had my moments of being sad and mopey), etc.
I understand that I have a lot of trust to rebuild at the very least, and a lot of resentment to overcome and soothe. I know this won't be a short process. But, it all depends on her choice... I can't do any of that if she chooses life without me. She's questioning all the changes in me, as well as asking how it is I could finally get it in such a short period of time. My response has been that, in my opinion, and that of many great minds, men tend to communicate and understand action more than words. The action that occurred in the first conversation, and then the real eye opener of the ignored calls, etc. that night three weeks ago, finally gave me the perspective I needed to hear her fully and truly. I've been experiencing a level of empathy I haven't had in a long, long time, and all I want to do now is be the best man I can be for her, and throw my arms around her and heal the wounds I've caused her.
I've read so many pieces of advice saying to focus on me, and to get a life and start being independent in my activities so that she has space and so that she sees me living life to its fullest. I'm trying, but when she's working 70+ hours a week, and we have a 10-year-old son to take care of, I haven't figured out how to do that yet. The only thing I have been able to do is go walk or run around our neighborhood. I've asked about counseling, which she says she's not sure she's in a position to do right now, and I'm not sure it would help if she doesn't know what she wants. I've tried to give space as much as I can, and I've admittedly had a few breakdowns and led us into conversations about everything multiple times (though to be fair, I think we both feel like we've had some really good and honest communication during these talks). She's mentioned a trial separation as an idea, but not asked for it explicitly, more in passing during one of our conversations. I've read conflicting points of view on them and can see the merit to each, but deep down I feel she can't see any changes I make if we're apart, and feel like all it would do is push her further away. I feel like she's romanticizing the notion of being alone, even though she truly does know that it would be hard and would hurt us both to do so.
I also believe her best friend is pushing my wife towards divorce. She's unhappy in her own marriage and wouldn't leave her husband for religious reasons. I feel like she may be trying to live vicariously through my wife. I have no evidence to support this, just a gut feeling. I'm also concerned that my wife is really protective of her phone, though I believe it to be worry about me reading the conversations with her friend (even though I don't snoop and have always respected her right to privacy).
I'm at a complete loss, and just don't know what to do, if there's even anything I can do. I don't know how I could ever believe in love again or know what love is if we divorce, because the standard by which I measured everyone else I've ever been with will have rejected me, even after acknowledging her lack of doubt in my commitment and feelings for her. The world would be colorless for me. Without her, the rest would be inconsequential. She's my heart, my soul, my drive, my motivation, my happiness, my everything.
I know this was a long post, and I guess it's a combo of journaling and trying to gain perspective from unbiased outside parties to our situation. Am I doing all I can? Should I keep hope? Am I misreading the signs that love is still there, just buried deep under resentment, hurt and anger? This just hurts so much, and is worse than grieving the death of a loved one.
I know lots of you think she is or did cheat. The night in question, she had a work dinner with the upper management of her company (she's part of the management team). She had made plans to stay at her grandmother's house that night since she knew it would be late and she commutes an hour or more to work every day. I was there when she asked her grandmother about staying there that night. When I finally got in touch with her that night, I could tell she was in a bathroom because of the echo, and she proceeded to tell me she was going to stay in a hotel instead of driving to her grandmother's house because she had consumed several drinks at dinner. She wasn't drunk (if she had been, I'd have known because she doesn't have a high tolerance for alcohol), but she didn't feel like driving would be the responsible thing. My fear got the best of me because I was aware that we had a major problem, and all of a sudden at 11:00 at night, I'm being told she's changing the plan, had been drinking, and was staying on a hotel. I tried to convey my fear that all of those things could mean she was in a place to consider it, not that she was actually doing it. This of course came out all wrong on my end, and upset her because she felt like I was accusing her. She told me the next morning that she was just done with dealing with all of this that night, and just wanted sleep (I finally got a text from her at 12:30 saying she was tired and didn't want to deal with it that night and we'd talk in the morning). Even if she did cheat, I can either accept it and forgive her and move on if I want to stay married to her, or I can't. I love my wife so dearly that I'm in the forgiveness camp, though I still don't think she did or is cheating.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
So, I haven't been able to read DR yet. Basically, between being almost dead broke and W seeing any and all purchases, I haven't been able to buy a copy. My local library doesn't have it, either.
So far it's been a complete rollercoaster. Over minute, she's talking about future plans with me and the next she's asking for space, and telling me she doesn't know if she wants to be with me. We've been intimate several times, about 4 over the last month and a half... That's actually a little bit of an improvement in our sex life compared to the last several years.
She's still constantly hiding her phones (one personal, one work), and is very distant. She's showing so many signs of being a WW/EA/PA or going through MLC that I don't know what strategy is best. It's entirely possible that maybe she cheated where she normally wouldn't have, and now is so racked with guilt after seeing my response to everything, that it's causing her to waver back and forth about staying. I don't think she wants to hurt me, and admitting to that would definitely do so, which means she either rips the band-aid off and hurts me, loves with the secret and guilt for the rest of our lives, or just leaves.
I'm trying my hardest to GAL, but with no money, there's not a lot I can do. I have started playing guitar again, but can only do so in limited bursts due to an injury to my left ring finger a few years ago.
As for things she listed wrong with me and our marriage, I've done a complete 180 on all of it. Validating, contributing to household responsibilities (she's done virtually nothing around the house in the last month and a half, save for one load of laundry and cooked three times, two of which I did half of). I've also sold my woodworking told and gun collection, which has put us within $500 of paying off all of our credit card debt (another thing she was extremely upset about). I've taken more of an active role in our finances, though she's still handling the majority there because she knows the budget software, whereas I haven't really used it other than to record transactions. She also has all the login info for everything, where I do not.
I've begun reading more. I've also dropped 37 pounds, partially because if stress and partially because I changed my diet and have been working out again. I haven't been this light since we were married. None of my clothes fit me anymore... My pants and shorts look like I'm trying to be a rapper, sagging down below my butt.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
crouton, you mention your son's age, but not your and her ages. How long you've been together, how long married. All of that is good background for your sitch that will help those of us offering support, encouragement, and advice.
First of all, you are in denial about her cheating. All of the red flags are there. Not going to her grandmother's that night. Going silent on you (if she was concerned about you worrying about her cheating she wouldn't have done that). Her privacy with her phone and online activities. My guess is it was an EA with someone at work, that turned into a PA that night.
Her roller-coasting is common to a lot of sitches. In fact, your W's behavior is very similar to my W's behavior early on in our sitch. They roller-coaster for one reason. Their plan A (the new person) has solidified. Maybe the OM is married, or attached, or deep down they know OM is only involved to get some action. But the reason she roller-coasters back to you is because she wants to make sure Plan B is still solidly there as a safety net. We have a saying around here, a monkey doesn't jump from their current branch until they have identified a solid branch to leap to. Your wife isn't ready to jump off her current branch until she has a solid branch to leap to.
Detachment (also see self-differentiation in relationships) is the key here. No matter what, you can't be so emotionally attached that it is unhealthy for you, and smothers her. So often when we get bombed, we LBHs do the wrong 180s. Our WAWs just told us that they wanted out, or were considering it, and then we smother them and push them away. Think about it, she's essentially told you that she wants time and space, and our instinct is to spend as much time with them as we can! Likely, her working 70 hours a week is because she feels smothered once she is home. So detach, give her the time and space she needs.
GAL is a big key to this. I like the walking and running. And the guitar playing. I am not too sure about the selling of tools and guns though. To me that was you trying too hard to please her. And that is pursuit and pressure. NOTE, pursuit and pressure will not work. You are not dealing with a new woman that has no history with you. That is when pursuit and pressure works. Your W will be pushed away by those actions. GAL helps with this. It doesn't have to be expensive. But find things to stay busy with. Reconnect with old friends and just hang out. Take up new hobbies or interests. The more you are doing to stay busy the less your mind will race and the less you will try to apply pursuit and pressure on her.
180s. In the right way. Every time you think there is something you need to change ask yourself your motivation. If it is simply to impress her, she will know that. And it will come across as pursuit and pressure. If it is to better yourself, then go for it! Do things around the house, but do not advertise it! Do things when she isn't home. She'll either notice or she won't but don't do it because she'll notice. 180s are for self improvement. Sometimes your W notices this self improvement, but again, impressing her isn't the goal. The goal is to be the best that you can be.
And be careful blaming your W's waywardness on her friend. Lots of LBSs do this. "If only I could get her away from so-and-so." First, this is trying to control what you cannot. Second, it is probably misplaced blame. We LBHs like to think our WW is still the girl we married. She isn't. Read sandi's rules. Learn them, study them, live them. She is not the girl you married. Don't be in denial on that. Further, her friend has less to do with this than you think. You say your friend is unhappy but won't leave her husband for religious reasons. Likely she doesn't think your W should live you for those same religious reasons!! I've yet to meet someone so deeply religious (and I am deeply religious myself) that they wouldn't break up their marriage that goes around telling others to break up theirs! So forget the friend. This is between you and your W.
Finally, believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. I know you don't like to here the advice "concentrate on you", but crouton think about it. YOU are all you have control over. She is either going to stay or go. YOU have to be okay with either decision. YOU being ok is in your control. HER leaving or staying is not.
And don't be fooled into thinking she just wants to be alone. One of the things I said ad nausem on this forum is that a WW doesn't need to live alone to figure things out. Or to find herself. Or to work on the MR. The only reason a WW moves out on her own is to sleep with other people.
Finally, get DB/DR and read it. Read all of cadet's links. DBing doesn't guarantee your M will be saved, but it gives you the best chance. What is a guarantee is that if you pursue and pressure her then she will leave. So do the opposite of those things.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'd add that you seem to want to take all the blame for this marital breakdown. It's not all your fault. You want it to be so that you can fix it and make the world better.
You can't fix her.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I'd add that you seem to want to take all the blame for this marital breakdown. It's not all your fault. You want it to be so that you can fix it and make the world better.
You can't fix her.
THIS^^^^^^
I just responded to I believe ballast' sitch about how we LBHs in particular like to take all the responsibility because of the feeling of control we think that gives us. overrnbw is dead on here........it isn't all your fault and you can't fix it. All you can do is GAL, 180 (in the right ways), DETACH, and be the best you that you can be. She'll either come around or she won't.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Sorry you're here, man. I know how you feel. I'm new to this DBing stuff, too, but one thing that has helped me is doing some nice things for myself. This can be difficult when money is an issue, but it sounds like the jogging and walking are good first steps. I think you should relish the weight loss, as long as you're not overdoing it. I wish I could get to the point where my clothes don't fit! Feel good about this new you as much as you can.
Originally Posted by crouton
I've asked about counseling, which she says she's not sure she's in a position to do right now, and I'm not sure it would help if she doesn't know what she wants.
I pressured my W into MC and it didn't do any good. I was still too sad and angry to make a go of it, and her heart wasn't in it. I've never been a therapy guy, whatever that is, but I have been seeing therapist myself, and it does a lot of good for me. If you can swing it and find a good one, I highly recommend it. It's great to have a professional validate your feelings and help you work through these emotions.
Me: 40 W:39 T: 19 M: 12 D4, D7 EA/BD: August 2017 EA ended: Oct 2017 MC: Oct 2017 - March 2018 W signed lease: July 10, 2018 W moved out: Sept. 14, 2018
Feel good about this new you as much as you can.