Wow, last night went well. I got out on the porch and played my guitar for a bit. Turned on the string lights, lit some citronella incense, and hung out with the dog while I played. She eventually sent me a text from upstairs, asking me to come give feedback on the cover letter for the job application (it's for the company who produces our budgeting software).
She came down to bed just before midnight. I had just finished getting in bed when she came in. Once she went through her nightly routine and finally got in bed, she first laid down on her side facing away from me. I was on my back, not all the way over on my side, but not encroaching on hers, either. I didn't move at all, or try to chase her. I just let her be.
It was amazing to see what happened next. She fidgeted for a few minutes, then scooted back towards me a bit. A few minutes later, she came a little closer. Then, a few minutes after that, she rolled onto her stomach, pausing to look at me before she did. Then, a minute later, reached out and put her hand on my chest/shoulder. I didn't say a word, or move. I just reached up, squeezed her hand twice, then put mine back at my side. She didn't pull hers away, and that's how we fell asleep. I could almost hear the gears in her head (and could hear the small sighs she would let out just before she changed positions each time, something she does when wrestling with a thought) just before she changed positions each time.
This morning, I came into the kitchen while she was in the shower and getting ready. I made coffee for both of us (I don't care if you were my worst enemy, or the devil himself, if I'm making a cup for me, I'd make one for you, too), and then started unloading the dishwasher. She finally came in, packed her lunch, etc., and approached me for a hug while I was still focused on the dishes. She forgot to put something in her lunch bag, so while she was getting it, I started looking at a printed schedule of free classes for the gym we go to. She came over and looked at it with me. I remarked about how I had to cancel a class this past Friday, so needed to make it up, but it wasn't going on today. She then suggested that we go together this evening. I told her I'm okay with that, I guess it just depends on how late she ends up working.
The point being in all of this that I'm not chasing her, and just that little bit last night and this morning is seeming to get results where she's chasing me.
I will say, some of the things you say your W is doing are good signs. My W leading up to BD had not called, or really even texted me, just to be in contact in months. Her calls and texts were very business like, logistical. "We need dog food." "I drove D15 to the basketball game." Etc.
After BD, with my 180s, and once I really got good at detachment, suddenly she started texting me just to text. And calls to tell me things just to talk. Over time she moved back to the middle of the bed. She became more attentive and went back to doing the little things she had done when our MR was good.
I see some of that in your posts. Your last post, where you type: "She's currently working in the resume I mentioned earlier, and I told her to take all the time she needed when she said she'd try not to let it take too long again."
This reminds me of when things started to turn around in my sitch, where she'd go into her office to work on something and wouldn't bother to tell me, let alone say how long she intended to be at it. When things turned around she suddenly started saying things like "I'm going to go into the office to work on such-and-such. I'll come back out in an hour so we can watch -insert movie or show-". Complete opposite of what she had done prior.
So I see some of that in your sitch. That is all good signs. But as you observed, pursuit and then pouting when it is shut down (which is also pursuit) will set you back. So do a 180 on this. As you said you know your sitch better than all of us. If trying to snuggle in bed is something that will work for you, I'm not going to tell you not to do it. But go for that with NO expectations. Do not pout and get passive-aggressive if the attempt is thwarted. After you read DR, I highly suggest you read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. As you seem to have some "Nice Guy" tendencies. (Google what that means.)
Above all, my best advice for where you appear to be echoes JRuss. DO NOT DISCUSS THE R WITH HER. NEVER INITIATE A R TALK. If she does then listen, and validate. (Read the validation thread. In fact, you should do that before finishing DR because she could initiate a R talk at any moment.) The turnaround in my sitch really took off once I stop talking about the R. She even mentioned in MC that the fact that I had started to just talk to her, about fun and light things, instead of the R was really having an impact on her wanting to stay. So please give it a try. Make a goal to go a week without bringing up your R. Once you make that make it a goal to go 2 weeks. And keep expanding it.
Once you see that NOT talking about the R is having a positive impact on your R, it gets easier.
crouton, I feel good about your sitch. It parallels mine in many regards. Keep up the good work, and make improvements and 180s where you have failed so far.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
According to her, it wasn't the space I gave, it was the way I gave it to her... I let my emotions get the best of me. I was coming out of a nightmare, and was still half asleep. That's no excuse, just a contributing factor.
Theres no need to make excuses for her. There was nothing you could have done to 'please' her in that situation. Stay there and sleep and she would have been mad about your breathing. Leave quietly and 'you would have shown you dont care', get upset as you did and 'it would have been making her out to be the bad guy'. The point is just your presence will feel smothering to her. Knowing that you are wanting/needing something from her is SMOTHERING to her...so it doesnt matter what else you do. You need to work to relieve the constant pressure that you apply with your words and actions.
Originally Posted by crouton
It's not out of spite I said this, but rather I was trying to show that she has a responsibility to our home and family, too. She shouldn't be able to cake eat. While I didn't use that particular term, what I conveyed was that there's no reason she should get to choose who stays and goes. I'm still a part of this M, just as much as she is right now. Regardless of how we feel about each other, we both still have responsibilities.
But I still dont understand. If you leave and she stays, arent YOU the one avoiding responsibilities? My recommendation is to stay as long as you can if you want to keep as much custody of your son as you can. I dont believe judges look fondly on dads that leave the marital home as far as giving out custody.
Originally Posted by crouton
She doesn't want a servant, right? How was I not justified in saying I wouldn't be that for her, and she'd still have to share responsibilities?
Thats perfectly valid. Because she left, I think it's certainly reasonable for you to plan a trip by yourself for something. But that wasnt what you said. Your point was that if she goes away....again, that you would also go. At least thats how Im understanding it. Which doesnt really make sense.
Originally Posted by crouton
If I feel it's detrimental to stay here alone, why does she get to trump that? Am I not allowed to take care of myself?
Yes, I will. But, I'll be sad anywhere, which is what I told her. Why is it unhealthy to feel sadness that my spouse is possibly rejecting me?
Of COURSE you need to take care of yourself.
But come on. Think of what she is hearing:
"If you want to leave me, I will be too sad to stay here by myself."
How is that NOT pressure on her?
TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN HAPPINESS. I mean, it's ok to be sad, but dont put the pressure of your happiness onto HER. Thats one of the points of GAL - to figure out how to be happy on your own. And, no, I dont consider "sleeping in your car" as GAL
Originally Posted by crouton
See my last post for answers/more explanation to the first part of this about the budget. As for the hobbies, I gave up the equipment, yes, but not the hobby. I can't afford to shoot right now, and I'm looking for a woodworking club so that tools aren't an issue. Beyond that, I'm playing guitar again (as much as I can... lost part of a fingertip almost 3 years ago), exercising, hiking, etc., to try and show her that she's not all I have.
Im still confused. I mean, she can take a weeklong Girl's Trip and....you have to borrow money to buy a book and cant afford to drive into town...??
Originally Posted by crouton
As for changes, I'm communicating differently than I have (except when my emotions get the better of me like this morning), which is the main reason she didn't just leave when this all blew up. I'm working on being more patient, though it's a work in progress. I'm eating better, and trying new foods (a big complaint she's had, and frankly, something I've wanted to change for a long time). I'm watching less TV/YouTube and doing more around the house, beyond cleaning and cooking (fixing things I've put off, getting rid of clutter in the garage, etc.). I'm reading more, particularly books about personal growth, ranging from money to spirituality to meditation to organization. What little YouTube time I have is either meditation, personal growth or healthy relationship content (so that with her or someone else, I get a deeper understanding of what I did wrong and how to make sure I don't do it again). She isn't around while I'm watching YouTube, because honestly, I don't want her to see me going through the changes... I'd rather her see the change itself. The only other thing I can think of I could possibly be doing that I'm not is focusing on my business... I feel like focusing on it so much, for so long, is part of what got us here. I could have been focusing on healing the rift between us for the last two years instead. I don't want to get sucked down that rabbit hole again.
So do you have goals around these kinds of things? Very specific, measurable goals about what your plans are? I think that will help you to focus these into clear actionable targets. Like what does it MEAN to be "more patient"? How will you measure your success?
I will say, some of the things you say your W is doing are good signs. My W leading up to BD had not called, or really even texted me, just to be in contact in months. Her calls and texts were very business like, logistical. "We need dog food." "I drove D15 to the basketball game." Etc.
After BD, with my 180s, and once I really got good at detachment, suddenly she started texting me just to text. And calls to tell me things just to talk. Over time she moved back to the middle of the bed. She became more attentive and went back to doing the little things she had done when our MR was good.
Yeah, I'm not sure if you saw my last post about how the evening went and this morning, but even the little bit of 180 I did yesterday saw immediate results. I'm not going to allow myself to feel too much about this, other than it's a good sign. I know things could change at any moment, so I'm just accepting it for what it is... a good evening and morning, and nothing more.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I see some of that in your posts. Your last post, where you type: "She's currently working in the resume I mentioned earlier, and I told her to take all the time she needed when she said she'd try not to let it take too long again."
This reminds me of when things started to turn around in my sitch, where she'd go into her office to work on something and wouldn't bother to tell me, let alone say how long she intended to be at it. When things turned around she suddenly started saying things like "I'm going to go into the office to work on such-and-such. I'll come back out in an hour so we can watch -insert movie or show-". Complete opposite of what she had done prior.
Yeah, I know from my OP things seemed really dire, which is why I tried to post an update reply after, but the moderated post delay may have kinda thrown us all off base. That said, there has DEFINITELY been improvement since the BD. Things are still rocky, shaky and on a rollercoaster, but we went from her saying she "just doesn't want it" within a few days of the BD to her saying this past Friday that she's "trying to get to a place were she wants it consistently". That's one heck of an improvement, considering the circumstances.
Originally Posted by Steve85
So I see some of that in your sitch. That is all good signs. But as you observed, pursuit and then pouting when it is shut down (which is also pursuit) will set you back. So do a 180 on this. As you said you know your sitch better than all of us. If trying to snuggle in bed is something that will work for you, I'm not going to tell you not to do it. But go for that with NO expectations. Do not pout and get passive-aggressive if the attempt is thwarted. After you read DR, I highly suggest you read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. As you seem to have some "Nice Guy" tendencies. (Google what that means.)
My mantra yesterday (aside from telling myself "baby steps..."), and going forward, will be to mirror what she does, in terms of affection and talking about the R. If she starts, I will reciprocate, and only at the level of intensity she does, no more. I'm only going to snuggle if she asks or she snuggles up to me. I think she wanted to last night (see my last post), but settled for what she did instead. I think this means (assuming I'm correct about wanting to snuggle) that she's trying to trust what she's feeling, what she's seeing in me as far as changes, and that maybe, just maybe, she's starting to reconnect with her feelings of love for me. What I have to do, and have finally gotten through my thick skull, is give her the freedom and space to do so without pressure. By doing that I not only relieve the pressure she's feeling, but also create the mental, physical and emotional distance to miss me, and therefore recreate the attraction for me in her.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Above all, my best advice for where you appear to be echoes JRuss. DO NOT DISCUSS THE R WITH HER. NEVER INITIATE A R TALK. If she does then listen, and validate. (Read the validation thread. In fact, you should do that before finishing DR because she could initiate a R talk at any moment.) The turnaround in my sitch really took off once I stop talking about the R. She even mentioned in MC that the fact that I had started to just talk to her, about fun and light things, instead of the R was really having an impact on her wanting to stay. So please give it a try. Make a goal to go a week without bringing up your R. Once you make that make it a goal to go 2 weeks. And keep expanding it.
Once you see that NOT talking about the R is having a positive impact on your R, it gets easier.
I've read the validation thread, but will read it again. I know I've been validating her from the get go after the BD, because she has told me it's one of the main reasons she didn't just leave and file. She told me she feels and believes that I've actually heard her, and have acknowledged my past sins, and that she doesn't doubt my commitment and willingness to change (though I think she's not able to trust the changes sticking just yet). She also said that she was surprised that I didn't get defensive when she told me something hard to hear, or even lashed out at me in anger. My response was to validate, take responsibility, or simply stare at the floor without replying (when she would lash out, anyway... when she saw this, she realized she was just trying to hurt me with her words rather than have any sort of productive conversation, and she apologized pretty fast after doing so). All of that said, I also realize I need to make sure I don't lose sight of validating her when the opportunity arises.
Originally Posted by Steve85
crouton, I feel good about your sitch. It parallels mine in many regards. Keep up the good work, and make improvements and 180s where you have failed so far.
That's the plan. Thank you for the encouraging words and advice.
To you and everybody else, I want to say that I know yesterday got off to a rocky start in this thread. I think I was just still in a dark place in my head, and I'm also still trying to work on the flaws within myself. I want to take a moment to thank all of you who spoke up, gave advice, and tried to help. I also want to apologize for being thick skulled, defensive, and closed minded. I definitely need to approach this with "a beginners mind", because I've been "going down cheeseless tunnels", and a lot of what I'm doing so far isn't working. I need to keep focusing on what is working, and doing that, and also begin to experiment with some of the other methods in DR. I read all the way up to "Take Stock" yesterday, and purposely stopped there. It seemed like I need to start putting the methods into practice before I can go any further. If any of you have any suggestions on what else to read in DR ahead of time, I'm all ears.
I did skip forward a bit to chapter 10 to read about infidelity, but only skimmed it. As of now, I don't have any concrete proof that this fits my sitch. Red flags, yes, but proof, no. As things stand, so far it appears that if there is an OM/OW (my wife is bisexual), the most likely thing is that it's a co-worker. That being said, my W is trying to do what she can to get away from her job. I've noticed she seems far less concerned with it over the last week or two. If there was an A, of any kind, her wanting to leave signals that either A.) she feels guilty about it, wants to stay with me, and doesn't want to hurt me by disclosing it, so is doing what she needs to in order to get away from it so she can work on us, or B.) the OM/OW didn't work out, and now she's resorting to plan B. The bottom line is as things stand, I'll never know for sure if there was an A unless she tells me. But, if she's trying to get away from a sitch with the OM/OW, that at least shows remorse/wanting to do the right thing, and that's something I can work with and make peace with. If there wasn't a A happening, it shows that she is trying to bring her focus back to her family (which could also still include me), which is again something I can work with.
To you and everybody else, I want to say that I know yesterday got off to a rocky start in this thread. I think I was just still in a dark place in my head, and I'm also still trying to work on the flaws within myself. I want to take a moment to thank all of you who spoke up, gave advice, and tried to help. I also want to apologize for being thick skulled, defensive, and closed minded. I definitely need to approach this with "a beginners mind", because I've been "going down cheeseless tunnels", and a lot of what I'm doing so far isn't working.
If youre talking to me, dont sweat it. A lot of DB seems incredibly counter-intuitive and takes a while to really grasp that what you THINK and what you want to DO just dont work. When something is slipping through your fingers, the impulse to grip stronger makes logical sense and advice to just 'let it go' doesnt.
Hopefully as you continue to see positive trends, you will start to understand more of the advice youre getting.
Theres no need to make excuses for her. There was nothing you could have done to 'please' her in that situation. Stay there and sleep and she would have been mad about your breathing. Leave quietly and 'you would have shown you dont care', get upset as you did and 'it would have been making her out to be the bad guy'. The point is just your presence will feel smothering to her. Knowing that you are wanting/needing something from her is SMOTHERING to her...so it doesnt matter what else you do. You need to work to relieve the constant pressure that you apply with your words and actions.
I finally got this through my thick head last night. I don't know if you saw my 1st post this morning, but it had some pretty immediate results. Small ones, but immediate. I just have to keep taking baby steps.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
But I still dont understand. If you leave and she stays, arent YOU the one avoiding responsibilities? My recommendation is to stay as long as you can if you want to keep as much custody of your son as you can. I dont believe judges look fondly on dads that leave the marital home as far as giving out custody.
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. I really don't know. My brain and heart feel as though they've been put through a blender set to "frappe", so I may not be in the best place to objectively answer that.
Originally Posted by crouton
She doesn't want a servant, right? How was I not justified in saying I wouldn't be that for her, and she'd still have to share responsibilities?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Thats perfectly valid. Because she left, I think it's certainly reasonable for you to plan a trip by yourself for something. But that wasnt what you said. Your point was that if she goes away....again, that you would also go. At least thats how Im understanding it. Which doesnt really make sense.
No, I didn't say if she left, I'd leave. I said that if she wanted to leave just for the sake of getting space, that I'd leave instead. There's no reason she couldn't stay and still get the space she needs without me being around, but at the same time it would also keep her accountable for handling the responsibilities she has and that I've been solely taking care of for the last month and a half while she's been trying to "figure out what she wants/take care of herself and her feelings first". My point is that I've allowed her to do so for the last month and a half (as much as I can... I've definitely had my moments and haven't been perfect), but I have to be able to do the same. The reason I called this a boundary yesterday is because I've been showing her the respect needed for her to do so (again, as much as I can, though not perfect), but I also have to be able to do so, too. Just from one human being to another, being married to each other or not, we should all respect each other in at least that capacity. And, TBH, I think she understood that. She made a concession by not being gone all week, and instead took the weekend having a girls weekend at our friend's house.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Of COURSE you need to take care of yourself.
But come on. Think of what she is hearing:
"If you want to leave me, I will be too sad to stay here by myself."
How is that NOT pressure on her?
TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN HAPPINESS. I mean, it's ok to be sad, but dont put the pressure of your happiness onto HER. Thats one of the points of GAL - to figure out how to be happy on your own. And, no, I dont consider "sleeping in your car" as GAL
Correct me if I'm off base, but isn't that one of the things MWD talks about in DR? My clinginess/neediness to be with her is one of the things that's putting her off. By saying I'll leave instead of her, isn't that "Doing Something Different", "Doing a 180", and, really showing a lot of strength? Further, her knowing I don't know where I'll go, but by golly, I'm going to make it work and be okay? Doesn't that show confidence, which is universally sexy and attractive? And isn't that attraction what I'm trying to rebuild in my W?
I totally see where you're coming from, and I see where me saying that I would go instead could put pressure on her, seem manipulative (which isn't neccesarily a bad thing... MWD talked about this in DR), seem controlling, etc., but I'm not trying to do it from a place of control. I'm saying it because it's a complete departure from my past behavior, and further because it would be the healthier choice for my mental wellness than me staying here alone. If I can't fix me, how do I even begin to fix us? I promise, I'm not trying to be argumentative or flippant, and I'm trying to gain a deeper understanding of what I'm doing and how it's affecting her. If I'm wrong about any of this, help me understand why, and what a better way is... I'm trying to approach this with a "beginners mind". I really do thank you for trying to help, and I want to hear what your take is. You've been at this a lot longer than I have.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Im still confused. I mean, she can take a weeklong Girl's Trip and....you have to borrow money to buy a book and cant afford to drive into town...??
No, she stayed at our friend's house starting Friday night, and was back by 5:30 or so on Sunday night. The only outing I think they had was going to a vegan restaurant (friend is vegan) and a small shopping spree to buy nail polish and mani/pedi supplies... all of which our friend paid for. My W paid for parking, and that was it (I know because I've seen the logs in our budget software). She's being frugal with our money (and has been for our whole R, at least way more than I have... she splurges sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with sometimes, a lesson I've had to learn), and honestly, since she's making double what I am, I'm okay with her spending money on herself. She's responsible with it, and has a better handle on our finances anyway, and has given me no reason to doubt her judgement, ever, in this area.
Originally Posted by crouton
As for changes, I'm communicating differently than I have (except when my emotions get the better of me like this morning), which is the main reason she didn't just leave when this all blew up. I'm working on being more patient, though it's a work in progress. I'm eating better, and trying new foods (a big complaint she's had, and frankly, something I've wanted to change for a long time). I'm watching less TV/YouTube and doing more around the house, beyond cleaning and cooking (fixing things I've put off, getting rid of clutter in the garage, etc.). I'm reading more, particularly books about personal growth, ranging from money to spirituality to meditation to organization. What little YouTube time I have is either meditation, personal growth or healthy relationship content (so that with her or someone else, I get a deeper understanding of what I did wrong and how to make sure I don't do it again). She isn't around while I'm watching YouTube, because honestly, I don't want her to see me going through the changes... I'd rather her see the change itself. The only other thing I can think of I could possibly be doing that I'm not is focusing on my business... I feel like focusing on it so much, for so long, is part of what got us here. I could have been focusing on healing the rift between us for the last two years instead. I don't want to get sucked down that rabbit hole again.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So do you have goals around these kinds of things? Very specific, measurable goals about what your plans are? I think that will help you to focus these into clear actionable targets. Like what does it MEAN to be "more patient"? How will you measure your success?
I have some, though it's still a work in progress:
-Communicating more effectively: Saying what I feel and think and a more controlled, concise and effective way. Things like "I want to eat this particular meal for dinner tonight" rather than "What do you want to eat tonight? We have this we could make, but we also have this, and this, but I'm leaning more towards this particular one." I'm also working on mastering "silence after the sales pitch", where instead of continuing to prattle on after saying what I need to and trying to boost the other persons confidence in what I've said, I'm going to say what I need to and let my own confidence do that work for me. Tony Robbins and Tom Bilyeu talk about this a lot.
-Being more patient: This is two-fold. Patient with her and where we are at the moment, patient with life in general, etc. fall under this. But, also things like not complaining when I'm stuck in traffic, or standing in line at the grocery store, or listening to someone talk on and on. The measurable things for this would be things like "I didn't get frustrated when she didn't respond to something kind I did" or "I didn't yell at the car in front of me that was going 15 under the speed limit", etc.
-Eating better and trying new foods/trying old foods I didn't like again: I've stripped nearly all sugar from my diet. I'm eating smaller portions (though this is admittedly partially because of the stress right now), and eating more vegetables. I'm also focusing on high protein and high fiber foods, which means my body has to work harder to break them down. That means I burn more calories at rest. I'm drinking more water. I haven't had any alcohol except for three times the last month and a half, and that was a single glass of wine at dinner (when we were having a good night). No beer, no liquor (I don't really drink to excess often anymore, but I was having a beer, sometimes two, most days for a long time in the evening). I've been trying to eat at least one new thing/try something again once a week. If I miss a week, I do two things the next week. This is something I feel good about, as I've found several dishes I really like (Chicken Tika Masalla being the one I like best), and it's something I know she's really taken notice of (she about had her eyes pop out when she saw me willingly eat a mushroom, and told me it was pretty sexy watching me eat cauliflower after I made some with another dish).
-Watching less TV/YouTube: This one is pretty obvious. I really only watch TV when she wants to, or when our son wanted to before he went to Colorado. I have only watched TV alone (and actually paid attention) on two nights this whole time (when she was at our friend's house this past weekend). Instead, I've been filling my time talking to my mom on the phone, going for walks/runs/to the gym, reading, etc. The only YouTube time I've gotten has been all about self improvement. I've been trying to meditate at least once a day for 10-30 minutes, and sometimes twice a day. I'm not really a spiritual or religious person, more agnostic than anything, but it's at least helping me (some) to get centered and calm.
-Doing more/fixing things around the house: First off, my business is a handyman business. So, I've been repairing everything I can that needed to be (without spending money on it... just used leftover materials from other jobs). I've also been hauling things off to donation centers or to the dump (this is the one area that I know she really doesn't mind me spending money on, and neither do I... we've needed to clear the clutter for a long time, and we may be listing our house soon anyway, regardless of a D or not). I've just generally been trying to get our house in better shape. I make a bit of progress nearly daily, and when each room or task is done, I check it off my list.
So, yeah, I've got small, actionable, steps to check off as I complete each thing and get closer to my goal.
Again, I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative or flippant. I really do want to learn if I'm wrong, how I'm wrong, and what I can do differently to not be wrong. I'm all ears if you have anything. Thank you so much for talking through all of this with me.
If youre talking to me, dont sweat it. A lot of DB seems incredibly counter-intuitive and takes a while to really grasp that what you THINK and what you want to DO just dont work. When something is slipping through your fingers, the impulse to grip stronger makes logical sense and advice to just 'let it go' doesnt.
Hopefully as you continue to see positive trends, you will start to understand more of the advice youre getting.
Not just you, but you're definitely included in that.
And you're right, a lot of this does seem VERY counter-intuitive. I still don't know exactly which way is up, but I feel like after last night and this morning, I'm seeing a bit of sunlight above the surface of the waves. I just have to keep swimming in that direction.
crouton, thanks for the words. we all buck against DBing at first. AS Amof said, it is extremely counter-intuitive. It is almost as if someone is telling you that if someone throws a right hook at your head to lean into it.
Another anti-divorce author and counselor (not MWD) that I did a private consultation with said it is like two guys about to get into a fight. One guy will shove the other away and the second guy, once he recovers will come forward at the first guy. She said I needed to push my W away emotionally....and that her natural response would be to come towards me. That is exactly what happened. The further I detached and distanced the further she pursued. Again, everyone's sitch is different, but when you do the counter-intuitive, as you found out last night, sometimes the change is immediate.
That is why your sitch is reminding me a lot of my sitch. As I gave up on the saving the MR, and as I quit trying to talk to her about it, she started to come back to the MR. It is a weird dynamic, but it is Amof was referring to about the distance-pursuit dynamic.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So, since you're seeing all these similarities, do you mind sharing, or sharing a link, to where your M is at the moment? I'm still figuring out the site, and I'm sure you've got it posted somewhere on here. Or if you want to just do a summary of the highlights. I guess I'm just looking for inspiration and solidarity from it..
I finally got this through my thick head last night. I don't know if you saw my 1st post this morning, but it had some pretty immediate results. Small ones, but immediate. I just have to keep taking baby steps.
I like to think like Im losing by 12 in the bottom of the 9th. Sure, you can hit a home run, but youre still losing. Need to string a lot of hits in a row together to come back....a walk is as good as a homer.
Originally Posted by crouton
I said that if she wanted to leave just for the sake of getting space, that I'd leave instead.
To me, this is more of the same. Regardless of your intentions, to me, it is being "Super H". Its about solving her problems for her. It doesnt send the message "this family is important to me".
One other thing to consider. Ive seen way too many cases where an H leaves and then can never get back in. Like, he thinks it's a rial for a couple weeks and before he knows it, the locks are changed and there are claims for abandonment. I know you trust your W implicitly....but so have many men on these forums who were....hoodwinked. I really think it's a bad idea to leave for several reasons.
Originally Posted by crouton
Correct me if I'm off base, but isn't that one of the things MWD talks about in DR? My clinginess/neediness to be with her is one of the things that's putting her off. By saying I'll leave instead of her, isn't that "Doing Something Different", "Doing a 180", and, really showing a lot of strength? Further, her knowing I don't know where I'll go, but by golly, I'm going to make it work and be okay? Doesn't that show confidence, which is universally sexy and attractive? And isn't that attraction what I'm trying to rebuild in my W?
Your clinginess is absolutely turning her off. But saying youll leave will feel like a tactic youre using to try to appease her. Saying "You need space? Theres the door" is a complete 180 on your part. Its standing up for what you believe in. Why should you uproot yourself from your home because SHE needs space? That feels like bowing your needs to what she wants - more of the same Nice Guy behavior...
Originally Posted by crouton
She's being frugal with our money (and has been for our whole R, at least way more than I have... she splurges sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with sometimes, a lesson I've had to learn), and honestly, since she's making double what I am, I'm okay with her spending money on herself. She's responsible with it, and has a better handle on our finances anyway, and has given me no reason to doubt her judgement, ever, in this area.
So maybe you need to learn how to be 'responsible' with the money also? I wonder if there are classes you could take or books to read about how to be more financially wise. I just feel like a one time grand gesture and then unsustainably money-starving yourself is really a great long term strategy.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So do you have goals around these kinds of things? Very specific, measurable goals about what your plans are? I think that will help you to focus these into clear actionable targets. Like what does it MEAN to be "more patient"? How will you measure your success?
That was a good list you posted. Keep going.
I REALLY Strongly advise you to keep looking into GAL. I really think having more social outlets for you would be an incredibly benefit.
