I like to think like Im losing by 12 in the bottom of the 9th. Sure, you can hit a home run, but youre still losing. Need to string a lot of hits in a row together to come back....a walk is as good as a homer.
That's a good analogy.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
To me, this is more of the same. Regardless of your intentions, to me, it is being "Super H". Its about solving her problems for her. It doesnt send the message "this family is important to me".
One other thing to consider. Ive seen way too many cases where an H leaves and then can never get back in. Like, he thinks it's a rial for a couple weeks and before he knows it, the locks are changed and there are claims for abandonment. I know you trust your W implicitly....but so have many men on these forums who were....hoodwinked. I really think it's a bad idea to leave for several reasons.
And you could be entirely correct... I may not ever get back in if I leave. I guess this relates in part to not believing anything they say and 50% of what they do, doesn't it? If she's saying space, as in trial separation, it could be a sugar coated method of saying that she feels it would be easier to leave completely and file if we weren't sharing the same residence (though, I suppose that could be true regardless of who stayed and who went). The good news is that she hasn't brought up leaving (either of us) again since I told her that. The closest thing resembling that is during our blow up yesterday morning, she said that she didn't want us to sleep in separate rooms, but if that's what we had to do for her to get the space she needs, then that's what we'd have to do. I say that only to point out it seems that physical space isn't so much what she's after (at least for the moment).
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Your clinginess is absolutely turning her off. But saying youll leave will feel like a tactic youre using to try to appease her. Saying "You need space? Theres the door" is a complete 180 on your part. Its standing up for what you believe in. Why should you uproot yourself from your home because SHE needs space? That feels like bowing your needs to what she wants - more of the same Nice Guy behavior...
I see the difference now. Technically speaking, I suppose they're both 180's from being clingy, but the one demonstrating strength is the one telling her where the door is, and the one that would be most effective. Thanks for helping me to get this.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So maybe you need to learn how to be 'responsible' with the money also? I wonder if there are classes you could take or books to read about how to be more financially wise. I just feel like a one time grand gesture and then unsustainably money-starving yourself is really a great long term strategy.
I am being responsible with the money. I was early on in our M, and got irresponsible because I was trying to fill a hole in my heart. One of us had begun to pull away (not sure who, doesn't really matter for now, though it may be relevant in the future), and it kicked off a cycle of each of us feeling disconnected from each other. I started buying things and just generally wasting money, thinking it could help make me happy again. She did some of the same thing, but it was maybe 1 time to my 30 times.
What I'm doing now beyond just sticking to the budget we have (or, at least will be when the money gets back to normal again... we had a lot of atypical things the last couple of months that drained us temporarily, such as having to buy COBRA coverage at three times what we were paying each month, plus summer camp for our son instead of just after school care, etc.) is thinking three things:
-Quality over quantity: How will this thing improve my life? Is it a "buy once, cry once" item, or is it disposable? Is it truly going to bring an increased level of quality to my life?
-Do I need it right now?: Can I get by without it for now, or at least a while longer? Does it fit into our budget? Is there a better option that if I wait, I will have better results/quality/etc.?
Does this bring me/us closer to my/our financial goals?: This one is pretty self evident.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
That was a good list you posted. Keep going.
I REALLY Strongly advise you to keep looking into GAL. I really think having more social outlets for you would be an incredibly benefit.
Like I said, I'm working on it. I talked with a close friend that we've had since childhood that wants to start going to the gym together (and before anyone gets the wrong idea, this is someone who is in a strong and healthy marriage of her own, and is also completely aware of and supportive of my utter devotion to my W... she's been that way since my W and I were in middle school, always rooting for us, and is now trying so hard to help with W and I working this out). She normally goes/has to go in the morning due to her job, and it's unfortunately while my W is at work so she won't see me GAL (which is fine, it's about me, not her anyway), but just having human connection is a big help for me right now. Both her and her husband have offered a room if I need one for a couple of days (they told me this yesterday), and are just trying to be there for me in any way they can. I'm hoping at the end of the month things normalize a bit, financially. I'm looking for karaoke events/contests near me that aren't in bars... I was in several bands, and singing is truly my happy place. I don't know that I want to start/join a band again, but I'll definitely go sing my heart out. I think getting some positive responses from perfect strangers would help my self esteem and feelings of value. I've been looking at working with Habitat for Humanity to help build houses (and put my skills to good use), but unfortunately they're booked out about a month. I'm going to keep searching in the meantime. Even finding things to do while we're both here at home I'm sure would be a benefit.
W called me on her way home. Seemed a little more distant than yesterday. We talked about various things, mainly about our son, his education, and a plan to get him on a better track going forward. In all of this, we had to talk about selling our house, her leaving her job for one with more availability, incomes decreasing, etc., all of which ultimately had to lead, in part, to talking about our M. We kept it brief, she expressed she's afraid that she's going to make all of these changes, blow up her career, our M fall apart anyway, and then be in a position where she won't be able to financially support herself or our son. The only way I knew to respond was to focus on a future with us together, reassuring her that we make it work, and could accomplish anything as a team. I admit, that's probably not the best response I could have given, but I was kinda put on the spot, and didn't know what else to do.
She's been seemingly less distant since she's been home. She's currently across the room on the phone with her tattoo artist, who's also become a friend during the last several months.
I don't know why I'm freaking out so bad right now, other than just feeling like I may have pushed her away with my responses earlier. She brought the subject up originally, and the conversation naturally evolved towards having to discuss us, even if it was only a little bit. I tried to validate her feelings of doubt and fear, just saying I completely understand why she would feel that way about us, then tried to reassure her that we could weather it out no matter what.
We ended up having just a bowl of cereal for dinner (long story), and I've been trying to give space since then (playing my guitar, etc.). The only reason I'm sitting across from her now is because she indicated she wants to maybe watch something together when she's off the phone.
How bad did I screw up, and how do I handle this if/when it inevitably comes up again?
So, things were meh last night after I posted. We watched two episodes of a show we both like when she got off the phone. She purposely chose to move from the love seat across the room to the couch where I was sitting, though didn't get extremely close to me.
When we got in bed, I was doing a lot of soul searching, and when she saw I was thinking about something pretty deeply, she asked what was up. I asked her if I could ask her some questions about myself and get her feedback. Only one of them pertained to our R, and I kept it brief. I was asking questions like "Do I do things for others with strings attached, or only because I want to do them?" (she said I tend to do them just because, though I often undervalue what I'm doing when people try to repay) and "Do I seek approval/validation from others more than is healthy?" (she said in some ways yes, in some ways no) and "Can you picture me being successful in business?" (she said up until recently, no, because I refuse to play the game/be a kiss up to someone, where she tends to do that, and it's one of the things that make her somewhat resentful of her career path thus far, meaning she feels like she has to slave away to support our lifestyle) . The only question I asked about our R is "Am I more of an Alpha or Beta personality in our R, and which do you prefer?" (she replied that in some ways I'm both, but it usually is in the wrong ways for what she needs/wants, though she could see me changing that easily enough). I thanked her for the feedback, and validated some of the concern she ended up expressing when we talked about our R.
When we turned out the light, she rolled over and faced me, and reached out and took my hand, us falling asleep like that. This morning, when she was snoozing through her first alarm, she snoozed it, then looked at me and scooted up to me to have me snuggle her (I'm not going to initiate this going forward and instead let her do so). I don't know what any of that means, other than it was a couple of good moments with my W, so I'm trying not to dwell on it.
I've started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (I found it on archive dot org). While not all of the nice guy tendencies apply to me, there are definitely a few I think do:
[/i]-Nice Guys believe they must hide their perceived flaws and mistakes. -Nice Guys seek the "right" way to do things. -Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women than to men. -Nice Guys often make their partner their emotional center. (this is a MAJOR one for me) -Nice Guys are dishonest. (to a point, anyway) -Nice Guys are secretive. (again, to a point) -Nice Guys are manipulative. (I'm starting to see ways that I was unconsciously doing this up til now) -Nice Guys are controlling. (same as above) -Nice Guys are passive-aggressive. (not always, or even necessarily the majority of the time, but I do get this way) -Nice Guys are addictive. (When I'm unhappy, I try to fill that void with something, anything to feel better) -Nice Guys are frequently isolated. (I've been told by my W and others that this is true, and I'm starting to see that) -Nice Guys frequently have problems in intimate relationships. -- Specifically: Nice Guys are often terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person's problem. -Nice Guys are usually only relatively successful.[/i]
After reading all of this, and with what's going on between W and myself, I'm starting to feel really low about myself. I know I can work to change it, and I'm going to, but it's really disheartening to think that I got to be such a terrible person, and that it affected my relationships and success in life so immensely.
I was going to post about this last night, but I couldnt get it done on my phone.
Originally Posted by crouton
We kept it brief, she expressed she's afraid that she's going to make all of these changes, blow up her career, our M fall apart anyway, and then be in a position where she won't be able to financially support herself or our son. The only way I knew to respond was to focus on a future with us together, reassuring her that we make it work, and could accomplish anything as a team.
My point about this is that when she expresses doubts or concerns or fears, it's ok to just LISTEN. You dont need to solve her problems.You dont need to try to make her feel better. She wants to be HEARD. Saying things like :I completely understand" and "We should do x or y" doesnt really make her feel that way.Response like "it sounds like youre at a crossroads for a lot of things" or "I can imagine all those thoughts carry a heavy burden on you" or things like that let her feel like youre on her TEAM. She isnt asking for solutions....she just wants you to listen and to empathize.
And then you posted this today:
Originally Posted by crouton
-- Specifically: Nice Guys are often terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person's problem.
and it felt like it completely nailed what I was thinking.
Originally Posted by crouton
After reading all of this, and with what's going on between W and myself, I'm starting to feel really low about myself. I know I can work to change it, and I'm going to, but it's really disheartening to think that I got to be such a terrible person, and that it affected my relationships and success in life so immensely.
Dont feel bad. You didnt know any better. You did the best that you could with the tools that you had. Now is a GREAT time to obtain new tools to help you going forward. You have a lot of life left to use them! Recognizing your issues and improving them is an incredible success story to me.
crouton, I am not seeing that you messed up in any of this! (Except the bowl of cereal for dinner, but I've been there these last few weeks as we've moved into the new house and are still working on the old house to sell it!)
While it may not be strictly DBing, you reassuring her that you could make your MR work, together, is not a bad thing at all. To me there many positives. First it allowed you to reiterate that you want to make the MR work. Second, it shows that while she has doubts about your future together, that she hasn't completely given up on the idea.
crouton, I think you guys should sit down and plan out what you discussed, and the next steps you'll need to take to make it happen. I think it is a valiant thing to want to be more available for your S, to make sure he is getting the education (both at school AND at home) that he needs. And if giving up lifestyle to do that is necessary, then DO IT. You've already shown that you can prioritize things properly (getting rid of the tools and guns). So work with your W to make sure you guys are aligned in the goals, and then take actions to move that forward.
On NMMNG, I was like you. I wasn't the embodiment of NGS, but I definitely had some tendencies in that direction. I think in my MR I did do things hoping for reciprocity. Especially when it came to trying to get more sex. I would read things "If You Want More Sex, Do These Things" and then do those things expecting she was suddenly going to become a sex fiend. And then I'd get pouty and resentful when it didn't happen. But it is a valuable book to help root out bad behaviors.
Keep it up, I think you are doing great things. I am of the personal belief that women are not affectionate with men they aren't attracted to. The fact that she is reaching out (sitting on the couch with you, taking your hand, snuggling in bed on her initiation) are all positive signs.
Remember sandi's rule: 37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
#37 is very important because days and weeks of hard work can be erased in mere moments.
You got this!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
My point about this is that when she expresses doubts or concerns or fears, it's ok to just LISTEN. You dont need to solve her problems.You dont need to try to make her feel better. She wants to be HEARD. Saying things like :I completely understand" and "We should do x or y" doesnt really make her feel that way.Response like "it sounds like youre at a crossroads for a lot of things" or "I can imagine all those thoughts carry a heavy burden on you" or things like that let her feel like youre on her TEAM. She isnt asking for solutions....she just wants you to listen and to empathize.
I see the distinct difference between what I said and your examples. Thank you. I'll try to remember this going forward.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
and it felt like it completely nailed what I was thinking.
I wasn't consciously trying to solve her problems, more trying to ease her fears only because I care (the statement wasn't made from a place where I was thinking about me, but rather that I know she's scared and hurting), but I can certainly understand why what you're saying makes sense.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Dont feel bad. You didnt know any better. You did the best that you could with the tools that you had. Now is a GREAT time to obtain new tools to help you going forward. You have a lot of life left to use them! Recognizing your issues and improving them is an incredible success story to me.
Thanks, Amoafwl. I'm just starting to slide into a depressive state because I don't know what to do to change myself. I don't like this version of me, but can't seem to figure out how to change it.
crouton, I am not seeing that you messed up in any of this! (Except the bowl of cereal for dinner, but I've been there these last few weeks as we've moved into the new house and are still working on the old house to sell it!)
The bowl of cereal thing was simply an oversight on my part. What I had planned for dinner had spoiled, and I haven't gone to the grocery store in a while (we've been trying to focus on eating what we have in order to make sure it doesn't go to waste). I make some pretty awesome sandwiches. I think they're pretty simple and not that exciting, but she loves them, and even said she was excited about eating one on her way home. Problem is, the bread had gotten moldy, and by the time she got home and I discovered that, it was 8:30 already, and she was starving with a bit of nausea from the hunger. Cereal was just the most expedient thing.
Originally Posted by Steve85
While it may not be strictly DBing, you reassuring her that you could make your MR work, together, is not a bad thing at all. To me there many positives. First it allowed you to reiterate that you want to make the MR work. Second, it shows that while she has doubts about your future together, that she hasn't completely given up on the idea.
That's true, but she also hasn't committed to it either. Not trying to focus on the negative, or expect overnight change, but I say that simply to point out that we have all of these other things circling us (house, jobs, S's education, etc.), and really neither of us can plan out how best to move forward on them because they hinge on our M status. That's why our conversation had to naturally evolve to discussing our MR. At the heart of everything, our MR determines our plans in those areas.
Originally Posted by Steve85
crouton, I think you guys should sit down and plan out what you discussed, and the next steps you'll need to take to make it happen. I think it is a valiant thing to want to be more available for your S, to make sure he is getting the education (both at school AND at home) that he needs. And if giving up lifestyle to do that is necessary, then DO IT. You've already shown that you can prioritize things properly (getting rid of the tools and guns). So work with your W to make sure you guys are aligned in the goals, and then take actions to move that forward.
But how do we do that without discussing our MR, and her feeling pressured and smothered? Especially since all planning is contingent upon that?
Originally Posted by Steve85
On NMMNG, I was like you. I wasn't the embodiment of NGS, but I definitely had some tendencies in that direction. I think in my MR I did do things hoping for reciprocity. Especially when it came to trying to get more sex. I would read things "If You Want More Sex, Do These Things" and then do those things expecting she was suddenly going to become a sex fiend. And then I'd get pouty and resentful when it didn't happen. But it is a valuable book to help root out bad behaviors.
I've been trying to read more of it this morning, but the more I read, the worse I feel. I just feel like it's exposing all of these things about myself that she's either overlooked for so long, or has realized about me, and things I hate about who I am at the moment. I don't know how I can change them, at least not yet. I only know I don't want to be this way anymore.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Keep it up, I think you are doing great things. I am of the personal belief that women are not affectionate with men they aren't attracted to. The fact that she is reaching out (sitting on the couch with you, taking your hand, snuggling in bed on her initiation) are all positive signs.
Remember sandi's rule: 37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
#37 is very important because days and weeks of hard work can be erased in mere moments.
You got this!
I hope you're right. I'm trying not to let it go to my head, and trying not to read into it too much because I don't want to give myself false hope or security. If I get to that point, it becomes really easy to break rule 37.
On reading NMMNG, power through. Man up. The author gives great advice on how to break the NGS cycle. Don't view it as "this is exposing bad thing about me". Instead view it as this is empowering me to make some awesome changes to who I am!
Denial breeds the status quo. Knowing where you have made mistakes breeds change and growth. NMMNG lets you know what you've been doing that has pushed her away. It gives you the knowledge necessary to 180 on those things and drop the NGS.
Take the incident the other day where you tried to snuggle, and she refused. You went out and pouted, then came back and "smothered" her with how YOU were feeling. Next time (though I still suggest you don't initiate snuggling right now) that plays out, instead of going out and pouting, you simple say "Okay, I understand." In cheerful, and upbeat way, then roll over and just relax by yourself for a while longer in bed. See the difference. One is manipulative and controlling. The other is understanding and validating, and being ok with yourself! NO MORE MR NICE GUY!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I wasn't consciously trying to solve her problems, more trying to ease her fears only because I care (the statement wasn't made from a place where I was thinking about me, but rather that I know she's scared and hurting), but I can certainly understand why what you're saying makes sense.
Of course that was your intent. The point isnt about intent or what is happening through your eyes. It's about what she is receiving from you. And those kinds of responses arent typically what she wants. Imagine the other way - you are frustrated and upset and when you try to vent those feelings, the other person is telling you to not worry, that it will all be better, that you can do x or y. Would you feel 'heard'?
Empathy is a hard skill to really learn and practice. Thats what 'validation' is. It isnt agreeing. It's letting the other person know that you heard them. And that you are listening Youve commented that you have been validating.....but to you is that just 'agreeing'?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
I'm just starting to slide into a depressive state because I don't know what to do to change myself. I don't like this version of me, but can't seem to figure out how to change it.
There are two little three letter acronyms that saved me from doing the same - PMA and GAL
Im not joking when I say you need to GAL. Not so that W will see it and recognize your worth. But so that you can have a safe, positive outlet for your energy. I always found hanging with my friends, we wound up just talking about my sitch and XW. Going out and meeting new people that knew me for me as a person was so rewarding. Its so important that you get some thing(s) scheduled as soon as possible to really help you kickstart your progress.
