Steve, Great Posts. I always love your insight and appreciate your comments on my sitch as well. Valuable tools. Realizing that our WAW/WW didn't just wake up one day and BD. They struggled with their decision for a long time. Reading through other's stories, similar reactions. "This came out of nowhere" "We had a great MR" " We weren't perfect but we were happy", etc. etc. Not realizing that the seeds were planted long, long ago. I look back and own my mistakes. The red flags were definitely there and some I ignored, some I picked up and waved back in her face, some I was oblivious too, and rarely I recognized some, tried to do something about it, but it was not the correct way to handle it. I don't "blame" my W for her decision. I know she did not come upon it lightly. She is definitely, at this moment, not the woman I married. She is struggling with her decision. She is also struggling that she has made a decision to move on after a LONG time of contemplating it. The journey before most of us will not be quick. It will not be easy. It will take resolve and commitment. I resonated a lot on the unrealistic hope comments. At present, Faith and Hope, realistic hope for a new and better me and hopefully a new a better MR are my concentration. I have zero control over my W. Detachment is key. Sandi's rules are key. DB'ing is key. I don't know if in my situation that in the end we will be together or not. I do know that I will be a better person and father. A 2.0 version of myself rebooted with a better operating system and the knowledge of what is truly important to me in this world.
The support of this board is amazing, but this is a journey that we have to do ourselves. We have to wake up each morning determined to be the best we can be. My focus is there.
Good Day to All!
Wow. Well said! I don't know why but this post actually made me emotional. I am a pretty unemotional guy. I don't cry very easily, but the openness and honesty in this post just hit me. JS, you have a great outlook on your sitch. You WILL be successful. Maybe not at reconciling your MR, but you WILL be successful in moving forward no matter what. This is what it is all about JS. Thank you for this post. Again, not sure why it hit me the way it did, but wow, it did.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Congrats. I am glad to hear that you are a success story. I never assumed otherwise. I appreciate you taking the time to help out us newbies. My comment was very much meant to be general. I don't know how healthy it is to continue on in limbo for years. I certainly could be speaking out of my arse in a pique of newbie impatience.
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I actually agree with you on the lottery. I am pretty staunchly opposed to gambling, legally or illegally. But mtb made a good point that most that play the lottery do so reasonably do to the hope of winning, without depending on winning it for their future well-being. But guess what, you are right, the vast majority would all be better off NOT playing it. Just like the vast majority of us would be better off NOT having to go through our sitches.
I don't think there is a "reasonable" way to play the lottery, I think it is always delusional. I don't see it as a moral issue, simply a question of healthy vs. unhealthy choices. Also, I think the parallel is not between playing the lottery and being in our sitch. We are in our sitches regardless, that is a given. The parallel is between hoping for R and playing the lottery, both are choices that we can make. So the question is whether or not we are better off NOT holding onto hope. Wouldn't our recovery be helped by letting go of that hope? Wouldn't we be able to process our grief more effectively?
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
I do not know what limbo you are referring to. Since my break up I dated and still do, I got an advanced degree from university, I changed careers to one I utterly enjoy and allows me to travel all over the world on a company dime, I also travel a lot in my free time, I hike, I am an award winning photographer, I joined Mensa and tons of other stuff. If anything, post BD I became a better father, better friend and allround a better person. No sign of limbo anywhere...
Congrats. I am glad to hear that you are a success story. I never assumed otherwise. I appreciate you taking the time to help out us newbies. My comment was very much meant to be general. I don't know how healthy it is to continue on in limbo for years. I certainly could be speaking out of my arse in a pique of newbie impatience.
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I actually agree with you on the lottery. I am pretty staunchly opposed to gambling, legally or illegally. But mtb made a good point that most that play the lottery do so reasonably do to the hope of winning, without depending on winning it for their future well-being. But guess what, you are right, the vast majority would all be better off NOT playing it. Just like the vast majority of us would be better off NOT having to go through our sitches.
I don't think there is a "reasonable" way to play the lottery, I think it is always delusional. I don't see it as a moral issue, simply a question of healthy vs. unhealthy choices. Also, I think the parallel is not between playing the lottery and being in our sitch. We are in our sitches regardless, that is a given. The parallel is between hoping for R and playing the lottery, both are choices that we can make. So the question is whether or not we are better off NOT holding onto hope. Wouldn't our recovery be helped by letting go of that hope? Wouldn't we be able to process our grief more effectively?
I won't tell you no on that. Look, hope is not necessarily a choice. You either have it or you don't. But as we say, no one is going to stand in the way of a LBS moving forward with the decision to give up and file for D. I understand the state you live in doesn't allow that, but I believe, if you were really resolved, you'd find a way to file for D in another state. The only advice most of us on the board give is to make sure you've done the work before just throwing in the towel. But all of that is up to you. You can give up at anytime. sandi's rule #33 is for those that want to maximize their chance of eventual R, but she herself would tell you the power to give up is always yours to wield.
I am not sure you are completely without hope, or that you want to be completely without hope Davide. That is for you to decide. But be honest with yourself. And don't delude yourself into believe that you can't lovingly detach without hope. Detachment is healthy EVEN in strong MR. (Look up self-differentiation in marriage for this concept.) It is never healthy to be overly attached to another individual. Never.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Again, my comment wasn't directed at you. I have no doubt that you are successful. I have been helped by many experienced users who have been successful in shifting their lives in positive ways regardless of whether or not they reach R. I appreciate you chiming in to help guide me and others.
I hear you, Steve. I agree that this is something that I am struggling with. I am certainly not resolved to D at this point. I just wonder if it would be healthier to reach that point.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Davide - I think it is the healthier place to reach where the issue of D or no D loses all power and you don't care. I don't mean you don't care as in a callous way, but that the issue of D doesn't make you afraid, anxious, and feeling like a failure.
And then if you started with not wanting a D at BD, take time to contemplate when you reach the place where you are thinking of D. File for D from a place of strength, and not as a technique or impulsiveness. I am not saying you are any of those things, but just talking about the mental and emotional state you want to reach.
For me, I didn't start out wanting a D. And I still don't think D is the answer to the problems we had in our marriage. However, I am not afraid of life after D and without her. I have already made huge strides and I know I am on the path of creating a fulfilling life by myself. So now I am contemplating about filing for D. I have been thinking about it for a few months now, but haven't acted on it yet. Partly cuz where I am at you need 12 months of separation to file. Those 12 months officially were up end of June. So, I can file whenever I want.
I am giving myself just a little bit more time to make sure I have reached a place where I am not subconsciously using D as a technique or being impulsive. I used to make decisions impulsively at times, and I have done a 180 on that to make sure I reflect enough, but also not go into decision paralysis.
Anyways, what I am saying is that, my eventual action of filing for D will be to celebrate my growth and ability to move on with my life. I have been moving forward so far, but I haven't moved on. I gave everything I could to save the MR and I want to make sure that I have no regrets.
So, the healthy spot to reach is where you are grounded and able to create a wonderful life for yourself. If your partner comes back, that's one path. If they don't, but you still live your life and grow, then that's a different path. D is just a pit stop on your path. My life is effectively a D life just without the official paperwork.
As Vanilla says - it is always the LBS who controls the final decision. And that's hella true.
When you used the phrase "herculean effort to save your marriage" that erased all doubt to who you were referring to yesterday when you said you had found another marriage expert that emphasized love. Mort is great, but again, I think Mort's methods are less effective after BD than they are prior to BD.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
No worries, but I never said that. I haven't read anything by Mort. Must be someone else.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
What are you going to do differently than you did in your past relationship, to make sure that things don't get stale and you find yourself right back here in a few months ??
How can you show her that you appreciate her, and her willingness to communicate with you ???
Cause while I understand where you are now, there is still an undertone of YOU being the caretaker of her and her feelings...
Do work buddy.....always
Mach, just realized I owe you a response!
To answer your first question:
First I dropped the NGS expectations. They are gone. The nice thing is that I found this so freeing! I was so caught up in the covert contracts I was living by I didn't even realize it. I also dropped the passive-aggressiveness.
Another 180 I instituted, and again it has been so freeing, is trying to control her. I used verbal and passive-aggressive criticism to try and control her. She isn't a good housekeeper. I knew that before I married her. But then I thought I could coerce her into being a better housekeeper. It was an exhausting struggle. Dropping that freed me. I have a new attitude: if I see something that needs to be done I either do it or I am okay with it being not done. Those are my only two options!
We are doing more things as a couple. Date night, real conversations, conversations about logistics and planning. All of this is new. No more "its up to you" stalemates. No more "you said you'd do that" passive-aggressive comments.
With the move to the new house we took a break from MC, but both of us want to recommit to it. We know that we still need to cement the changes. The MC was so good at getting me to see how I had a god ego. I thought I was always right and anyone that disagreed or did things differently was wrong. I continue to work through that through self-reflection and self-discipline.
We continue to go to bed together, spend time together, pray together. All things that were sorely missing from the pre-BD relationship.
Your second question is a good one. I think the biggest thing I have done to show her that appreciation is to LISTEN to her. Something I was horrible at pre-BD. When she'd come to talk to me I wouldn't stop what I was doing. I acted distracted, and even passive-aggressively let her know that I didn't appreciate the interruption. I got especially upset and frustrated when she would emphasize that it was important I listen ask me to pause the TV or movie or radio, or put down the phone or tablet or laptop. Now I do this willingly. When she comes to me to discuss or talk about something, I put away, turn off, and remove whatever other distractions might have my attention at that moment, and fully engage and listen and give her my full attention. This has resulted in her being so much more open, honest, forthcoming. You can tell she once again enjoys communicating with me instead of dreading it and putting it off. I am open to other suggestions on how to show this appreciation though Mach.
Oh and I also concentrate on speaking her love language now. Words of Affirmation. I am very open with my compliments for her now. (MC also pointed out that being verbally critical to someone whose love language is words of affirmation is a double whammy!) And I thank her for her open communication sincerely. (And deep down I really truly do appreciate it now that it was lost at one time!)
"Cause while I understand where you are now, there is still an undertone of YOU being the caretaker of her and her feelings..."
Can you expand on that? I have worked hard to differentiate. I do not react emotionally to the things she says and does anymore. I continue to work on my loving detachment since I feel that it is so important for a healthy relationship. What I have tried to concentrate on is being the caretaker of ME and MY feelings. While being sensitive to her feelings.
Mach, I am sincere in wanting more input on this. What have I typed or conveyed that led you to detecting this undertone. What advice do you have for me to make sure I'm not doing what you are suggesting.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
