ambivalent WW - detach?

[MoveFrwd]

But also felt like I was angry at her because I was being cold and blunt (trying DB).

Lots to say about MR but the main problem was that I was depressed and unavailable. MC recommended that I continue to say nice things to her to keep the relationship alive. Tried some DB over the weekend when I was feeling good about myself after spending time with friends.

What does 'trying DB' mean to you? I dont really understand. It isnt like a 3 hour test.

Frankly, you have tried all kinds of pursuit and pressure and where has it gotten you. It doesnt seem to be bringing you closer to R with her. So what is the problem with some time of NC? How are you USING that NC time? How are you working to improve yourself? What kind of GAL are you doing?

Im also curious about MC. What is the purpose of attending right now? Is she committed to making this R work? Does she have remorse for the A? What are your objectives?

[burned]

Thank you Steve, that's helpful. I think I'm getting way ahead of myself. The goal is R, not piecing. The piecing can't happen until R.

It's just weird because I'm halfway in and halfway out. We are S but D isn't on the table yet. The S is supposed to be for the purpose of improving MR. We are in MC but mainly just to hold it together, at least in my view. MC says she feels like we are making progress. So my sitch doesn't really fit the typical pattern of what I've read in other threads.

Is it really true that she might see me in a better light than OM, who was just such a lovely and perfectly-timed opportunity to finally live the life she wanted? I mean I'm the one keeping her from that. Her options are to follow her dreams or stick around with this loser she already decided she doesn't love anymore. Not sure how I can win this.

[SteveLW]

Thank you Steve, that's helpful. I think I'm getting way ahead of myself. The goal is R, not piecing. The piecing can't happen until R.

It's just weird because I'm halfway in and halfway out. We are S but D isn't on the table yet. The S is supposed to be for the purpose of improving MR. We are in MC but mainly just to hold it together, at least in my view. MC says she feels like we are making progress. So my sitch doesn't really fit the typical pattern of what I've read in other threads.

Is it really true that she might see me in a better light than OM, who was just such a lovely and perfectly-timed opportunity to finally live the life she wanted? I mean I'm the one keeping her from that. Her options are to follow her dreams or stick around with this loser she already decided she doesn't love anymore. Not sure how I can win this.

Please read what Amoafwl wrote. You are too focused on her. Focus on YOU. She will either wise up and fly straight or she won't. You have no control over that. You can control you. GAL like there is no tomorrow. Detach for yourself, not to try to manipulate her. Keep up the 180s. And be the best burned you can be.....the kind of burned only a fool would leave!

[MoveFrwd]

From my perspective, MC is the only guaranteed time I can see her and talk about real issues. She will avoid talking about R every chance she gets (I know, I shouldn't be talking about R anyway). So unless she starts feeling safe enough to see me more regularly, MC is my 1 hour every 1-2 weeks to show her that I'm improving. I definitely learned over the weekend that the LESS I talk about R, the MORE safe she will feel. That's on me.

So the more you talk, the less interested she is.....sounds like MC right now is not a great place to "talk about real issues" then, huh? I would advise that at MC you do WAY more listening than talking.


It sees to me like you are holding onto this string of hope that because shes in MC with you that there is some better chance at R. I kinda think you need to SHOW the opposite approach. That you are a cool, confident man who deserves to be pursued - what is the point of MC if she isnt remorseful about the A or in pursuit of trying to repair this marriage.

If she is 'sitting on the fence', I have a hard time seeing how MC will tip her to your side. Especially if your justification is that its your time to 'talk about real issues'. That sounds like you trying to convince her that she is wrong in her feelings or thatyou have changed. Its much more effective to SHOW her that by BEING that changed man. Not talking about it.

[MoveFrwd]

Here's a separate question. When school picks up again, she will run into OM, it's unavoidable. This time we are S and I have no way of knowing, nor should I plan on asking, nor is it at all safe for me to even bring up the topic, even in MC, because she then gets huffy and acts like I'm bringing up a "side issue"...what will happen? I'm hoping against hope that this time it's different now that OM's W knows. But what if OM's M falls apart? I heard his W wants to R but I have no way of knowing, and if OM's W is having as much success R with OM as I am with my W, I'm not making any bets. So suddenly there he is, he's got no baggage, nobody will find out, why the h*ck not? Bad news for me.

It's almost like I have a hard deadline of about 1 more month to get this stuff sorted out.

Then within the next month I will have to move again unless I get to go home.

Bracing myself for how miserable this is going to be.

Or is there a reason to be hopeful?

Trust me....you are not going be happily reconciled with everything figured out in one month. Think about where you are right now....you are competing with some other married man for the affections of YOUR WIFE. To me, that isnt someone I would want to be in a relationship with. I want someone that wants me....I dont want someone that could be tempted by some other person wandering in and out of her life.

How do you feel about yourself? How is your self-esteem? self-respect? What values are important to you?

Now is a great time to start sorting out THOSE issues.

[burned]

Got it. More listening, less talking. More showing, less talking. MC is now a venue for SHOWING and LISTENING and at least maintaining civil contact in order to gain more opportunities to SHOW and LISTEN, e.g. dates that SHE initiates (such as the one she is likely to initiate tonight, during which I will LISTEN and NOT TALK ABOUT MR).

I'm starting to get this. I still don't see how it will work. I was already a pretty decent guy before. Super intelligent, funny, etc. Everyone seems to think I'm a catch, except her. And even then, last week she said, "Part of the reason this is hard is because I like you so much." It's the whole ILYBNILWY thing, I know.

Here's a question: during MC she was acting like SHE was the one GAL and feeling good about it. So I freaked out. I showed my cards (I know, I know) and told her that it was a "relief" to feel like I can feel good about myself without worrying about how she feels about me. Note that the word "relief" is something she used to describe her feelings about the S. So now we're both GAL, detaching, and feeling relieved.

Please tell me that this is all part of the counterintuitive nature of DB.

[SteveLW]

Got it. More listening, less talking. More showing, less talking. MC is now a venue for SHOWING and LISTENING and at least maintaining civil contact in order to gain more opportunities to SHOW and LISTEN, e.g. dates that SHE initiates (such as the one she is likely to initiate tonight, during which I will LISTEN and NOT TALK ABOUT MR).

I'm starting to get this. I still don't see how it will work. I was already a pretty decent guy before. Super intelligent, funny, etc. Everyone seems to think I'm a catch, except her. And even then, last week she said, "Part of the reason this is hard is because I like you so much." It's the whole ILYBNILWY thing, I know.

Here's a question: during MC she was acting like SHE was the one GAL and feeling good about it. So I freaked out. I showed my cards (I know, I know) and told her that it was a "relief" to feel like I can feel good about myself without worrying about how she feels about me. Note that the word "relief" is something she used to describe her feelings about the S. So now we're both GAL, detaching, and feeling relieved.

Please tell me that this is all part of the counterintuitive nature of DB.

It is. But really the problem here is you are too focused on her still. IE not detached. Several of us talk about this strange dynamic all the time on this board. When you try to detach to manipulate her, she will feel it. She'll pick up in the subtle way you say things, your body language, etc, that you aren't REALLY detached.

But when you detach for YOU, so that you can move on, move forward, with or without her, she will feel that it is REAL and this will cause her to get curious about what changed, react to her loss of control over you, and generally start nosing around trying to figure things out.

But it is uncanny the way the WAS can detect whether you are fake detaching or really detaching.

[burned]

I want someone that wants me...
How do you feel about yourself? How is your self-esteem? Self-respect? What values are important to you?
Now is a great time to start sorting out THOSE issues.

I, too, want someone that wants me. I want it to be her. I can't control it, I know. My self-esteem is recovering. I am starting to respect myself more. I have always known what my values are and for the most part I've lived my life accordingly.

I can keep sorting out those issues, but I'm struggling to understand what she'll see that she hasn't already seen. I mean, if I start going skydiving, she's gonna call BS. I hate flying. I can lift weights, that'll put me back to where I was when she met me. But back then I was 20. I can reconnect with my hobbies, but I was spending all of my time on hobbies rather than spending time with her.

It all seems to want to backfire.

[burned]

But when you detach for YOU, so that you can move on, move forward, with or without her, she will feel that it is REAL and this will cause her to get curious about what changed, react to her loss of control over you, and generally start nosing around trying to figure things out.

But it is uncanny the way the WAS can detect whether you are fake detaching or really detaching.

I know. I'm still having trouble with the detaching. Thought I had nailed it until I saw her sweet face again. Hard to detach from someone I've spent half of my life (and all of my adult life) with.

I mean, do I have to SAY to her, "I'm done with this M, have a nice life, call me when you're lonely"?

And in the meantime, I have to sit around wondering what SHE's doing with her GAL activities. Eventually we are just two separate people who used to live together.

[SteveLW]

But when you detach for YOU, so that you can move on, move forward, with or without her, she will feel that it is REAL and this will cause her to get curious about what changed, react to her loss of control over you, and generally start nosing around trying to figure things out.

But it is uncanny the way the WAS can detect whether you are fake detaching or really detaching.

I know. I'm still having trouble with the detaching. Thought I had nailed it until I saw her sweet face again. Hard to detach from someone I've spent half of my life (and all of my adult life) with.

I mean, do I have to SAY to her, "I'm done with this M, have a nice life, call me when you're lonely"?

No, detaching is nothing you say, and everything that you DO! Read the detachment thread.