ambivalent WW - detach?

[burned]

So much going on here, thanks for the observations.

I was critical, hostile, and demanding after BD because I desperately wanted her to say, flat out, that she wanted R. I had no idea what I was doing. It was based on MWD's infidelity book, which was kind of light on details. Should have read DR first but the idea of D wasn't even on my radar (still only faintly on the horizon, tbh).

Losing control over myself, yes. Gotta dust myself off. It's easier to feel confident when I feel like things are going well. Paradox! Means I need to get better at detaching. Honestly, over the weekend I was getting sort of fumed about, Here's a person who completely effed me over and destroyed my already shaky self-esteem, and I'm the one begging HER to give me another chance? Yikes. So that helped with the detachment, along with making a list of things that annoyed ME in the MR. She's no saint, either. And I definitely agree that the A didn't improve anything.

I definitely validate when she says things that are hopeful about the future. I live for those moments. Oops, need to detach more. And I have definitely gotten better at letting go of the pressure and pursuit just over the weekend. Feels good to regain some control. "Pressure" was the word she used most when she was pushing for S.

Steve, to the extent that every behavior has multiple antecedents, I think the "wake up call" thing was probably at least 10% of it. Mainly seems to have been an unmet-needs A, with a sprinkling of exit A and a touch of self-validation A. She never had much self-esteem, and for all my trying I was never able to "fix" this. In hindsight, we both kind of entered into the R to help solve this problem for each other. On days when I can stay calm, it becomes abundantly clear to me that the S is giving us a chance to sort that out before reconnecting. What's sad to me is that I've been busting my butt to sort it out, while she just sort of expects it to solve itself, especially if I solve my side of it.

So that's where I'm at. Her attitude, at least if you trust what she says (I know, I know), is that she would be willing to put more effort into the R when she sees that I've made adequate progress on my ability to make her "feel safe." And how? Who knows. I'd rather go hunting for chipmunks in a hurricane, better chance of even knowing where the target is.

Tonight is MC and it will be my first chance to practice some of what I've learned. I just worry that I'll blow it by explaining what I'm doing and why. I'll try to speak less and listen more. If she wants to spend 6 months convincing the MC that her unmet needs are the most important thing in the world, great. Gives me an opportunity to show her, consistently, that I am listening and paying attention. Because that's what I wasn't doing before that got us to here.

As to why I would want to be M to someone who would put me through that kind of ordeal...guess it's that Calvinist upbringing.

I think I'll take the bait on going out with friends, particularly because they were the ones we hung out with the day before S, and I was being weird obviously, super sad. Since then she hasn't wanted to be seen in public with me because "it's awkward." So that will be my chance to demonstrate some progress. I should note that this isn't exactly a breakthrough for her. If she had her way, nobody would know anything about this and we'd all have a big dirt-eating grin on our faces as we lied to the people who cared about us most. People start to wonder when they haven't seen us, and that drives her nuts. I'm doing her just as much of a favor by keeping up appearances.

At least the get-together will take place right after my other friends, who have been extremely supportive, throw me a little birthday party. So I will be topped up on self-confidence before I see her.

[burned]

Just now she says she is worried about MC because she has been feeling good and doesn't want to have to talk about weighty matters. This is her typical strategy, avoid, avoid, avoid. But I often wonder if MC is just part of the plan: Hey, at least we tried, right? Wasn't I cooperative, I showed up every time? Yeah, but that definitely proves the stereotype about our generation, that showing up gets you a trophy.

From my perspective, MC is the only guaranteed time I can see her and talk about real issues. She will avoid talking about R every chance she gets (I know, I shouldn't be talking about R anyway). So unless she starts feeling safe enough to see me more regularly, MC is my 1 hour every 1-2 weeks to show her that I'm improving. I definitely learned over the weekend that the LESS I talk about R, the MORE safe she will feel. That's on me.

Marathon is right.

[SteveLW]

burned, the "MC so I can say we tried" is not just a phenomenon of your generation. It part of the classic WAS playbook. The rule is that you should only be doing MC if she is committed to the R and not actively involved in an A. Since the first is hard to gauge, and you are fairly sure the latter isn't the case, I'd say keep doing it for now.

[burned]

Here's a separate question. When school picks up again, she will run into OM, it's unavoidable. This time we are S and I have no way of knowing, nor should I plan on asking, nor is it at all safe for me to even bring up the topic, even in MC, because she then gets huffy and acts like I'm bringing up a "side issue"...what will happen? I'm hoping against hope that this time it's different now that OM's W knows. But what if OM's M falls apart? I heard his W wants to R but I have no way of knowing, and if OM's W is having as much success R with OM as I am with my W, I'm not making any bets. So suddenly there he is, he's got no baggage, nobody will find out, why the h*ck not? Bad news for me.

It's almost like I have a hard deadline of about 1 more month to get this stuff sorted out.

Then within the next month I will have to move again unless I get to go home.

Bracing myself for how miserable this is going to be.

Or is there a reason to be hopeful?

[burned]

Steve, we were in MC when there was a "flare up" after 3 months of relatively NC with OM. The MC was mildly impressed that I was willing to push onward. This was after I had to basically pry the information out of her using hard evidence. Lied straight to the MC's face.

I had already figured that part out so it didn't catch me by surprise. Everyone said, no, no, that's not the reason for the S. Sure it was. It hurt, but it was expected.

It's what I wrote just a moment ago in my previous post that bugs me. Now I have no tracker and she WILL deny anything I accuse her of and put it on me for being paranoid. MC says she read W's body language when W said it's definitely over and the body language suggests honesty. OK? I trust her as far as I can throw her right now, and she has taken exactly ZERO steps to prove her trustworthiness. In fact she was offended that I would expect proof. Clearly didn't read the trust book that I gave her that she said she would read.

So I won't REALLY have a way to know, meaning that MC could just drag on indefinitely. The way she's been acting in the last 4 months I doubt she would voluntarily say, "Hey, I'm back at it, so let's call this off." Doesn't have the guts. In fact at one point she said she was perturbed by the fact that SHE was the one who felt forced to make a decision about whether to end the R. And when I said, "Your actions suggest to me that maybe that's what you want," she said, "If that's what you want, do it. But I haven't made a decision yet."

So much confusion.

[burned]

OK, OK, I'm getting ahead of myself. That's what happens when I think too much, which is what I do.

I will calm myself down in preparation for MC. I've already written my goals: shut up, listen, let her run the show, validate, smile. Confident. Polite. No expectations, no resentment. Less is more. This is who she is right now. I am a safe person.

[joejoe1]

Burned I promise you this, if you stay with this forum, you will start to level out and see your sitch with objectivity. Right now you are trying to take on all the advice you get and you are going to try to apply it all at once. We have all been where you are at, and done some of the exact same things.

You won't fix you sitch or M in one day by applying a few approaches we use around here. It's going to take time and patience. I need/want you to start to use patience and time as your mantra. A lot of times we as LBS get impatient and feel like we are running out of time and we rush to just do something/anything and we prolong our current place in the M. If you want your M to change, start by not trying to use certain approaches to show your W what your are doing. Start by changing who you. Once you let go of thought process of winning your W back and gain a hold of the thought process of gaining your respect back, you will start to see change.

You are no longer on a journey to stay in your M, you are on a journey to heal yourself, to show your W the type of person she will lose if she continues down the road she is headed down. And if she decides to come back down your road, than a whole new M, will ensue. Your old M is dead, only new possibilities are a head of you, a better Burned, a better M, and better relationships all around. Keep posting! Keep and open mind! And follow the advice given around here, it will go against everything your human fiber tells you (this will be you learning how to give up control), but it works.

[burned]

OK so I just need to gripe about MC. It went OK, in the sense that W is being cordial and we are diving into some of the issues that led us to where we are today. I can see hope for R over time.

Then I get home and after a beer or two I start thinking, why would I want to R with someone who, after 4 months, has expressed almost no regret for what she did? Sure, she said she’s sorry she hurt me (and probably sorry she got caught) but not once has she ever expressed true remorse. It’s almost like MC is another chance for her to justify her selfish actions.

Can someone please advise on whether/when the WW “comes around” and starts owning up and trying to make amends? Does it happen once the MR is stronger? Or will I have to just eat it and focus on the future? I’m not sure it’s fair to myself to just downplay it this much. That would be more of the NGS that contributed to the sitch.

Definitely needing some encouragement here. I don’t want to lose sight of what kind of M I’m trying to save.

[burned]

MC said the "safety" comes from being able to talk about her problems in the MR while I calmly validate rather than defend and criticize. OK, I get that. But I felt like I was being hung out to dry. I just validate, validate, validate, but doesn't that end up with me becoming more and more resentful? I don't see how that will help in the long run.

Although one thing W did say during MC was that in the last week or so she has been feeling better able to feel good about herself without outside pressure. This was without knowing that I had started detaching right around the same time. So maybe it does work, as long as she doesn't feel TOO good without me.

[SteveLW]

MC said the "safety" comes from being able to talk about her problems in the MR while I calmly validate rather than defend and criticize. OK, I get that. But I felt like I was being hung out to dry. I just validate, validate, validate, but doesn't that end up with me becoming more and more resentful? I don't see how that will help in the long run.

Although one thing W did say during MC was that in the last week or so she has been feeling better able to feel good about herself without outside pressure. This was without knowing that I had started detaching right around the same time. So maybe it does work, as long as she doesn't feel TOO good without me.

Remember, validation isn't agreement. It is just understanding how she feels.

"I feel like you don't listen to me when I tell you important things."

"I can understand your feeling that way. I will make more of an effort to pay attention in the future."

You never admitted not listening just that you understood she felt that way.