Help Please: 2

[Terapin]

Steve, the more I think about this, honestly you are absolutely right. These rumors, lies, half truths, etc is stupid high school stuff.

I can see why she is angry at them, and i can see that they embellished the truth or stories to me. None of that really matters now, and that was another reason I said what I did to her last night. W has always put a lot of weight into other peoples opinions. It would always drive me crazy, cause I could really care less about what other people have to say (no offense to anyone here. lol).

Onto other things, S had school orientation tomorrow. W and I both went last year. She said she's going to take him, and I don't have to go if I don't want to. It is boring as all hell. I forgot all about it, and made plans to go to dinner with a friend. Not sure what I should do, or if it even matters?

Also, and most importantly, we have tentative plans to sit and really discuss our future this weekend. I know exactly what I'd like to say, but everything here says to just listen, validate, etc. I'm not looking forward to it.

[Terapin]

A little more journaling here:

Not much conversation today. Polite small talk. Neither of us mentioned anything about the M.

She made dinner yesterday (first time in weeks), so I started making dinner today. She got home in the middle of it, and jumped in and started helping (also the first time in weeks, if not months). She even made a wisecrack about my cooking.

Son wanted to go to a local fair. It was late, and unfortunately it's not something I would normally do on a work night (meaning I usually would have told him let's wait till the weekend). But today I said 'ok, let's go'. W said 'it may rain'. I said 'we'll risk it. You're welcome to come if you want.' She declined, saying she was tired, so son and I went and had a blast (at least until I rode some dumb ride that almost made me hurl).

A little small talk when we got home, and then i went downstairs to watch a show (not kid friendly).

That's the 4th time in the last 2 weeks that I went somewhere during the week without her (3 times with son, and once by myself). That's a big 180 for me, but I wonder if it's having a negative (or any) effect on what she's thinking. Like if she thinks I don't want to be around her, don't want her involved in me and sons plans, etc. I know, I know, it doesn't matter! lol.

[SteveLW]

You invited her to go. If she thinks that after an invite then she isn't very bright.

[Terapin]

You invited her to go. If she thinks that after an invite then she isn't very bright.

Good point. And obviously she isn't very bright. lol. Not that it's any of my business, but I'm finding out that she's been apologizing to all of our friends that were involved in this sitch. IDK if it's similar to an alcoholic 'making amends', if it's because she's trying to pave the way back to talking with OM again, or trying to get her friend sitch straightened out in case we work things out.

I gotta be honest, and this feeling comes and goes, but the longer this drags on, the less interested I am in saving the M.

[SteveLW]

I gotta be honest, and this feeling comes and goes, but the longer this drags on, the less interested I am in saving the M.

This is very typical. In fact if you look at most of the folks that are divorced on this forum, it is because they finally decided they were no longer interested and pulled the plug on the marriage themselves.

It takes two to make a marriage.
It only takes one to make a D.
If neither are interested in working on the MR then there is no more hope.

[Terapin]

I gotta be honest, and this feeling comes and goes, but the longer this drags on, the less interested I am in saving the M.

This is very typical. In fact if you look at most of the folks that are divorced on this forum, it is because they finally decided they were no longer interested and pulled the plug on the marriage themselves.

It takes two to make a marriage.
It only takes one to make a D.
If neither are interested in working on the MR then there is no more hope.

Very true. Apparently she told my mom this morning when dropping son off that things are 'a little better'.

Anyway, bittersweet for me. As of now I'm on vacation for 13 days! Unfortunately, we were supposed to be going on a family vacation to the beach....

[Terapin]

Update. I want to thank those that have replied to my posts. In theory all of the advice is great. Unfortunately in my sitch, it had the exact opposite effect (of saving the M)

I had to run out for somethign last night, then met a friend for a quick bite to eat. That's the 5th time in 3 weeks I went out 'GALing'. While out, W texts that she just bought her and son concert tickets (Metallica. Again, son is 8), and they're going to go with our 'friends' that until yesterday had completely written W off, and vice versa. These are the friends that employ OM btw, and they are also taking their 11yo son

So I come home, W is half drunk, and she unloads on me. I'll just try some bullet points.

- 'You knew I wanted to go to this concert, but YOU never made an attempt to get tickets'
- 'You've been out running around doing God knows what, instead of talking to me about stuff'
- 'You haven't even mentioned our R in the last 2 weeks. I have no idea what's going on. You're ignoring the huge
elephant in the room'.
- 'You've never cared about what I want or need, and that's why this whole thing started'.
- 'You've been doing things with son, which is great. But i just know down deep you're thinking I'm a terrible mother.'

My replies (as best I can remember)
- 'You haven't mentioned this concert in 6 months, and we agreed then that tickets were way too expensive.'
- 'I've just been living my life. You said you wanted and needed space to think.'
- 'I haven't been ignoring anything. I was open if you wanted to talk'
- 'Can you list some examples?' She really couldn't, but the few lame ones she did I validated
- 'I never said or thought you're a terrible mother.'

The conversation went back and forth between her blaming me for every aspect of her unhappiness, to her talking about marriage counselors that she's looked into for us. She said she did text OM again to ask him to please not share any of their texts with me, cause it would really 'hurt' me even more, and completely eliminate any chance of saving the M. WTF? She said that she'll answer any questions I have about it though right now. I didn't want to hear the details.

Everything she said that I listed above, she would always throw in "I guess I can't blame you", "I realize how awful and selfish I've been", "I guess you have a right to think or do xyz..' She continued to say that it really wasn't about OM, just about the attention she got

I guess to sum up:

DBing, GALing, detatching, etc seems to have had a negative effect on hopes of reconciliation.
When asked point blank what she wants, she still couldn't definitively answer. Just said that she knows that the best thing for everyone else would be to stay married, but doesn't know if it's best for her.
There are apparently so many conversations, texts, etc happening behind my back that I literally have no idea who to trust with anything.
On the positive side I guess, she did get referrals and research two MCs, and said she probably is willing to go, but wants to have a few IC sessions first (which she has scheduled).

Again, this conversation went on for 2 hours. There was tons of stuff said. I think I hit the main points.

[Terapin]

Just wanted to add one more thing. At one point in the conversation, after I asked her what she wanted, she asked what I wanted. My reply went something like this:

"As you know I wanted to save the M, and thought, and still think it's very possible. As inappropriate, confusing, and hurtful the things you said and did were, I could probably get past them eventually, but the following things would be required:

1. You must fully commit to working on our M. No half hearted attempts. I don't expect all of our time and energy to be on 'us', but we'd have to approach MC or whatever with the complete belief that we want it to work'. (she agreed to this, but wants some IC first).

2. You mentioned several times about depression, MLC, etc. You need to follow through with getting yourself straightened out. And alcohol isn't helping anything, so not saying you need to go to rehab or anything, but that's something that needs to be seriously looked at. (she said she has her first IC session this week. She knows alcohol is a problem, and it's her way to help 'cope', but she knows it's not helpful).

3. I need to trust you again. Not just regarding other guys, but being able to believe and trust what you say. This will take a while, but it'll be helped by the first two things I stated.' (she agreed she broke my trust and will need to earn it back)

4. If we do move forward with reconciliation, wedding rings should go back on. At least for symbolic reasons. (no real reaction from her)

5. You need to return to the marital bed. IDC about sex, but I think it's important, again at least for symbolic reasons (no reaction from her)."

I hate making 'demands', and I felt bad about telling her this stuff. Maybe I shouldn't have, but she asked. Surprisingly she did agree with most things, even though at the moment she's not completely sure what she wants.

[SteveLW]

Wow, T.

First:

- 'You haven't mentioned this concert in 6 months, and we agreed then that tickets were way too expensive.'
- 'I've just been living my life. You said you wanted and needed space to think.'
- 'I haven't been ignoring anything. I was open if you wanted to talk'
- 'Can you list some examples?' She really couldn't, but the few lame ones she did I validated
- 'I never said or thought you're a terrible mother.'

Where is the validation in these responses? Have you read the validation thread recently? You were responding tit-for-tat and that will get you no where!! Especially since she was "half drunk". Please do not engage with her when she is half drunk. She is only going to remember parts of it anyway.

Also, what prompted her to say something about the Metallica concert when you got home? Did you confront on that? Why not just ignore it? She texts "got tickets". There is no question in there. No need to respond. If she brings up later "Yep, I got it, hope you two have fun."

LISTEN. VALIDATE. Do not get into the kind of responses you got above.

DBing, GALing, detatching, etc seems to have had a negative effect on hopes of reconciliation.

T, this is another common mistake by LBSs. They dabble in DBing and then when things do not immediately turn around say "DBing doesn't work!"

The problem here T is you haven't really DB'd. 5 times in 3 weeks doesn't GAL make. Sorry it doesn't. When we say GAL we mean stay busy ALL THE TIME. Have plans or things to do all the time. Preferably out of the house, but even in the house, be actively engaged in other things rather than following her around the house, or sitting stewing in your own thoughts on the sitch.

Also, why do you think this is negative.

Let's review her half-drunken accusations:

- 'You knew I wanted to go to this concert, but YOU never made an attempt to get tickets'
- 'You've been out running around doing God knows what, instead of talking to me about stuff'
- 'You haven't even mentioned our R in the last 2 weeks. I have no idea what's going on. You're ignoring the huge
elephant in the room'.
- 'You've never cared about what I want or need, and that's why this whole thing started'.
- 'You've been doing things with son, which is great. But i just know down deep you're thinking I'm a terrible mother.'

The first one sounds like a reaction to you being sad or hurt or upset you weren't included (bad on your part by the way),. so I will ignore that one.

The next 2 ARE TYPICAL WASs responses to DBing! This means it is working! She expects you to be mopey and sad, and woe is me. To be constantly badgering to discuss the state of the R. Because that is the natural reaction LBSs have. The whole point of DBing is to change that reaction to one that more proactive and helpful. When you start detaching better, and start GAL better, she will feel a loss of control over you AND REACT. They never react positively to losing control, at first. But as it becomes the new normal then she will start to react better to it. Remember DBing is really for you and getting you ready to move on whether that is with or without her. If you are doing just to get her to react positively then you are doing it wrong anyway.

The 4th one is no different than her false accusations on BD. So why is that negative?

And the last one is her guilt over ripping the family apart, and, in essence, being a terrible mother! People guilt always cause them to accuse someone that is doing things of right of condemning them. My cousin and I lived together several years ago. We both were brought up in the church. Once he moved in to my apartment he quit attending church since when he lived at home his parents stipulated it. I however still attended both worships services on Sunday and midweek Bible study on Wednesday night. He told a friend of ours after a few weeks "Steve just attends church so much to make me feel bad." LOL I attended that way before we lived together, and I attended that way afterwards. It was his own guilt condemning him, not me or my actions.

On the positive side I guess, she did get referrals and research two MCs, and said she probably is willing to go, but wants to have a few IC sessions first (which she has scheduled).

I guess!? LOL T, are you generally a negative person? This is huge. This shows that what little DBing efforts you've made so far have already got her thinking she might want to save the MR! How can you type this and still think DBing hasn't worked towards potential R?

Also, you then say: "Again, this conversation went on for 2 hours. There was tons of stuff said. I think I hit the main points."

That's because you didn't listen and validate. If you listened and validated this likely would have been a 15 minute decision. When you engaged in tit-for-tat about her saying ridiculous things, and her being half-drunk ON TOP OF IT, you prolonged the agony of this discussion.

I hope you don't think I am being too harsh. I tend to be blunt. T I'll be honest, I see a lot of potential for you saving your marriage here IF you continue to improve your DBing skills and let the process work.

[Terapin]

Wow, T.

First:

- 'You haven't mentioned this concert in 6 months, and we agreed then that tickets were way too expensive.'
- 'I've just been living my life. You said you wanted and needed space to think.'
- 'I haven't been ignoring anything. I was open if you wanted to talk'
- 'Can you list some examples?' She really couldn't, but the few lame ones she did I validated
- 'I never said or thought you're a terrible mother.'

Where is the validation in these responses? Have you read the validation thread recently? You were responding tit-for-tat and that will get you no where!! Especially since she was "half drunk". Please do not engage with her when she is half drunk. She is only going to remember parts of it anyway.

Also, what prompted her to say something about the Metallica concert when you got home? Did you confront on that? Why not just ignore it? She texts "got tickets". There is no question in there. No need to respond. If she brings up later "Yep, I got it, hope you two have fun."

LISTEN. VALIDATE. Do not get into the kind of responses you got above.

DBing, GALing, detatching, etc seems to have had a negative effect on hopes of reconciliation.

T, this is another common mistake by LBSs. They dabble in DBing and then when things do not immediately turn around say "DBing doesn't work!"

The problem here T is you haven't really DB'd. 5 times in 3 weeks doesn't GAL make. Sorry it doesn't. When we say GAL we mean stay busy ALL THE TIME. Have plans or things to do all the time. Preferably out of the house, but even in the house, be actively engaged in other things rather than following her around the house, or sitting stewing in your own thoughts on the sitch.

Also, why do you think this is negative.

Let's review her half-drunken accusations:

- 'You knew I wanted to go to this concert, but YOU never made an attempt to get tickets'
- 'You've been out running around doing God knows what, instead of talking to me about stuff'
- 'You haven't even mentioned our R in the last 2 weeks. I have no idea what's going on. You're ignoring the huge
elephant in the room'.
- 'You've never cared about what I want or need, and that's why this whole thing started'.
- 'You've been doing things with son, which is great. But i just know down deep you're thinking I'm a terrible mother.'

The first one sounds like a reaction to you being sad or hurt or upset you weren't included (bad on your part by the way),. so I will ignore that one.

The next 2 ARE TYPICAL WASs responses to DBing! This means it is working! She expects you to be mopey and sad, and woe is me. To be constantly badgering to discuss the state of the R. Because that is the natural reaction LBSs have. The whole point of DBing is to change that reaction to one that more proactive and helpful. When you start detaching better, and start GAL better, she will feel a loss of control over you AND REACT. They never react positively to losing control, at first. But as it becomes the new normal then she will start to react better to it. Remember DBing is really for you and getting you ready to move on whether that is with or without her. If you are doing just to get her to react positively then you are doing it wrong anyway.

The 4th one is no different than her false accusations on BD. So why is that negative?

And the last one is her guilt over ripping the family apart, and, in essence, being a terrible mother! People guilt always cause them to accuse someone that is doing things of right of condemning them. My cousin and I lived together several years ago. We both were brought up in the church. Once he moved in to my apartment he quit attending church since when he lived at home his parents stipulated it. I however still attended both worships services on Sunday and midweek Bible study on Wednesday night. He told a friend of ours after a few weeks "Steve just attends church so much to make me feel bad." LOL I attended that way before we lived together, and I attended that way afterwards. It was his own guilt condemning him, not me or my actions.

On the positive side I guess, she did get referrals and research two MCs, and said she probably is willing to go, but wants to have a few IC sessions first (which she has scheduled).

I guess!? LOL T, are you generally a negative person? This is huge. This shows that what little DBing efforts you've made so far have already got her thinking she might want to save the MR! How can you type this and still think DBing hasn't worked towards potential R?

Also, you then say: "Again, this conversation went on for 2 hours. There was tons of stuff said. I think I hit the main points."

That's because you didn't listen and validate. If you listened and validated this likely would have been a 15 minute decision. When you engaged in tit-for-tat about her saying ridiculous things, and her being half-drunk ON TOP OF IT, you prolonged the agony of this discussion.

I hope you don't think I am being too harsh. I tend to be blunt. T I'll be honest, I see a lot of potential for you saving your marriage here IF you continue to improve your DBing skills and let the process work.

Thanks Steve. I appreciate it.

Yeah, I guess I've been pretty negative about all of this!

As for the concert, when I got home she asked if I got the texts. I said ya. She started saying how much she's always wanted to see them, how she's already so broke (financially) that it doesn't matter, etc. Yes, I reacted badly, and was 'hurt' that she made these plans without even considering me. Not even so much about going, but my feelings on taking our son. Again, this isn't a Wiggles concert

As for validating, no I didn't do a good job at all. But after being bombarded with all of this, I wasn't worried about validating her feelings. I know, bad move.

Regarding DBing, I say it's not working because it doesn't seem to be getting any results in our MR, except making her mad. I know the MC stuff is good, but our first conversation after BD she said that it's a possibility. Maybe she's more serious about it now, but again, nothing seems to have really changed in her overall feelings towards me/us.

One other thing she kept bringing up. When we were dating, and up until we got married, she was dealing with some serious issues, and essentially the bottom fell out with all of her closest friends. I was the one that 'stood beside' her dealing with all of it. She said that's when she realized that I was 'special', and wanted to marry me. This whole situation is somewhat similar, which is why I question the detaching part. Not that I'm 'turning my back on her now' whatsoever, but she probably perceives me acting 'as if', going out without her, getting D papers, etc as such.

She was also very open to talking about her EA with OM. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's certainly a change. It's confusing to me that she's 'making amends' with all these people that she hated a few days ago, but it really made me mad that she contacted OM again for any reason. And worse, she was actually defending him on some things (like how his current loser situation isn't really his fault). Again, it seems like she's more mad at him for shutting things down and exposing texts to our friends, more than she's actually 'over him/it'. Maybe I'm reading too much into all of this, and the whole 'don't believe...' stuff is true. But this is the kind of thing that makes me negative about the whole sitch.