Help Please: 2

[Terapin]

Both sides have fog. You're only one month in, better buckle down! Lots of work to do either way this thing goes.

Yes indeed. The LBS remembers nothing but good things about the M and puts the WAS on a golden pedestal, and the WAS remembers nothing but bad things about the M, all of which are blamed on the LBS. With time both sides come out of the fog. The LBS remembers the M wasn't always a bed of roses and the WAS remembers it wasn't always terrible. In other words they both come back to reality.

The WAS usually also comes to the realization that there is no White Knight waiting to sweep her off her feet and whisk her away to a glorious castle in the clouds to live out her years in peace and prosperity. It's all just fantasy. Here's the problem with reconciling- the WAS loves and wants that fantasy so bad and reconciling means giving up the fantasy. It's going back to the same old life and same old spouse. That's why DB'ing is all about remaking yourself into "the spouse only a fool would leave", because she doesn't want to go back to the old you and old M. She wants something new and different, and after a while she may come to realize that YOU are the "new and different" she's looking for.

Thanks AS. You're right.

The part about being a 'new me' is really hard. And it brings me back to the conversation w/ Steve and I a few pages ago about DBing, detaching, etc.

The first thing a new LBS seems to be told is to start GALing; joining a gym, getting in shape, going out w/ friends, etc. As far as I know, my W never had a problem with anything physical about me. I'm not Brad Pitt or anything, but I'm in about as good of shape as I'm going to be. I already lift or jog every day. I play several rec sports. I have tons of friends. I get lots of attention from other women. Her main issue with me is my attitude about communication, being emotionally available, etc. And those are the things that are hard to show/change while GALing, detaching, etc. I know she says I'm a negative person (Steve did too, lol), and I am. So trying to be more positive about every day things is definitely a goal of mine.

But here's a quick example of what I mean. W likes to come home and talk about her day at work. I never want to talk about my day at work. I don't like being at work, so the last thing I want to do is talk about it when I get home. She gets mad that I don't share, listen intently enough, or ask about her day ever. So a 180 for me would be to start inquiring about her day. But that also runs opposite of many of the DB rules.

[Terapin]

W picks son up from the bus stop. They come home and I'm grilling some food. W says she was talking to a friend of ours from down the street. The house across from him was sold, and 2 kids my sons age moved in. Then she says that the previous owner sold it for a $50 grand profit, and proceeds to excitedly tell me how it's a 'sellers market'. I just said 'that's cool'. Even the simplest conversations drive me nuts now. Ugh. She did then thank me for making dinner, and has made a little small talk.

[Terapin]

W being VERY talkative this evening. Weird, after not saying much of anything the last 2 days.

She told me she has her first IC session tomorrow and she's looking forward to it. I told her that if she wants to talk about it or parts of it tomorrow that's fine with me. If not, that's fine too. Then she said that if I (repeat, I) decide for us to go to MC, that I'd have to put it on my insurance, since her IC is on hers or something. Weird again.

But then 5 minutes later, she started talking about the 2 weddings SHE has in October. One of which is an hour away, and SHE may have to get a room near there. Just soooo weird.

Steve, you said in another thread that WWs sometimes will have one last 'rebellion' while they're considering coming back? Can you speak a little more on that? I know she's not said anything about being fully committed to saving the M, but if what you said is true, the timeline of events is pretty interesting in my sitch.

[ovrrnbw]

You're mind reading, hanging on to everything she says. What about her actions?

Don't try to predict the future here either. I know you want that crystal ball that tells you everything is going to work out but no one knows.

[Terapin]

You're mind reading, hanging on to everything she says. What about her actions?

Don't try to predict the future here either. I know you want that crystal ball that tells you everything is going to work out but no one knows.

I suppose you're right. Obviously it's hard not to get hung up on what she says, cause that's all I really have to process. I'm not sure what kind of actions I should be looking for or aware of. I mean, short of her getting on her knees and begging forgiveness, what would you consider a positive action? Her little EA aside, she's not really a 'first move' kind of person, in any aspect of life.

[SteveLW]

Steve, you said in another thread that WWs sometimes will have one last 'rebellion' while they're considering coming back? Can you speak a little more on that? I know she's not said anything about being fully committed to saving the M, but if what you said is true, the timeline of events is pretty interesting in my sitch.

Sure. However, before I do I would like to issue you a word of caution. Please do not start looking at each act of rebellion as the "last" act of rebellion. You will not know if it is the last act of rebellion for a very long time. I am almost 6 months into R and piecing and still sometimes expect the other shoe to drop. So if she reacts poorly to something, don't immediately get your hopes up and have an expectation that it was the last act of rebellion to the MR.

Also, please refrain from the temptation to judge every act and every day in your sitch as good or bad. This was some advice I got from an anti-divorce expert early on in my sitch. He cautioned me against the myopic judging of every word and action of hers. The reasons for this is obvious. First it requires you to be laser-focused on her. Second, your roller-coaster ride will rise and fall with every word and action of hers. Obviously not a good place to be and reacting emotionally to her on that level will hurt your sitch.

Also, I think you may have misunderstood me. Throughout the sitch, if the LBS starts to DB to any degree at all, the WAS will begin to question their decision to leave. As the LBS removes pressure and pursuit, detaches, 180s, and GAL, the WAS will start taking notice. Detachment and lack of pressure and pursuit will make them feel they have lost power in the relationship. The 180s, changing the poor behaviors that contributed to your circumstances, will make them start to wonder if your changes could be real and permanent. And this gets stronger over time. And GAL will make them curious as to what you are up to. All of this is a net positive.

But here is the thing, it was not easy for your WAS to get to BD. This is a misconception the LBS often has. From the LBSs perspective, they are miserable but the WAS is happy as a lark. More than likely this couldn't be further from the truth. Think about over the course of your relationship. For most of us there have been times when we weren't happy. Times when we've had the thought in our head that maybe we shouldn't be together, should have never got married, should get a divorce, etc. However, you've never acted on that. Why? Because it isn't easy! Even if you felt it strongly at times you've always pushed it away because it would kick off a very difficult road. You knew if you verbalized it that it would be hurtful and it would cause pain, and it would harmful to the relationship, and it could bring the relationship to an end.

The WAS has already gone through all of that before BD. They know that verbalizing "I want a divorce" will be painful for everyone involved. And even afterward they struggle with it. The way you can tell is that they, in most cases are still there! That shows that even they aren't really sure of their decision, but the thought got strong enough over time for them to actually broach the subject.

As a tangent, there was a sitch on here not too long ago where a W, on a holiday (either Christmas or Thanksgiving I can't remember which), after dinner said she had an announcement. In front of all her children and their families, she told her husband (the poster of the sitch) that she was unhappy, wanted out and was divorcing. As the kids and the H tried to reason with her, her phone rang. She answered it, collected a bag she had already packed, and proceeded to leave, get into a car with OM, and drive away. I tell that story for two reasons. 1) It is rare that it happens this way. and 2) Your sitch could always be so much worse!

Usually the WAS makes their pronouncement and that after BD life goes on pretty much as normal except that the LBS is miserable, living in limbo, and the WAS is either actively pursuing their proclamation, or verbally saying they still want D without taking any action towards actually doing it. Limbo. As another aside, I've written extensively on this board about the dynamic of the LBS that is living in limbo, and thinking it would be so much easier if the WAS actually left. And the LBS where the WAS has actually already left thinking it would be so much easier if the WAS was still around to show them all of the changes. Everyone always thinks the grass is greener.

So now in limbo, if the LBS starts DBing (and I saw this myself in my recent sitch because I started DBing on day 3), the WAS will being to doubt their decision. They expected behaviors from the LBS that would confirm what they were doing was best. They expected the LBS to try to control, to beg, to be mopey, to be angry, to lash out, to try to get even, to try to convince through act of slavery, etc etc etc. The board is riddled with LBSs that went in ways like this that ended up S, heading for D, or D'd. Or in some cases they allowed their actions to get so out of control that the WAS was able to get a restraining order to have them removed.

But let's go down the path of the LBS instituting DBing before the sitch escalates to the point of no return. The WAS starts to question their decision. But remember what I said above? About the WAS not having it as easy as the LBS thinks they do? The WAS now begins to dig in their heels. The proclamation "I am leaving" didn't come easily. And they aren't going to give up on easily either. In my own threads I wrote a post about how by the time the WAS has made this proclamation its been up to 2 years (in most cases) since they gave up on the marriage and started looking for an exit strategy. It is in that period, between giving up and bomb day that they are most susceptible to an OM or OW.

This is where the acts of rebellion begin. It might be subtle like a verbal reminder "I don't want to get your hopes up." "I still want a divorce." "I am still done." Or it could be meeting with OP again. Or it could be, like in my case, she creates an online dating profile complete with pic! The fact is that there will be many of these on the road to R and piecing. And you will never know which one is the last one until many weeks, months, or years later when you finally look back and realize that it was.

In my sitch, I know when it was. We had gone away for the weekend to a marriage retreat. When she agreed to go to this about 2 weeks after BD, she did so very reluctantly. It wasn't my idea, a couple at church asked us if we wanted to go. Several couples from church were going. As I said, my W agreed, but I don't think she wanted to. I think it was another feather in her cap "we even tried a marriage retreat and still couldn't save it" type of thing. By time the retreat rolled around her EA with OM#1 was over. She was insisting that potential OM2 was just a friend (and snooping seemed to corroborate that) and she at least was no longer reminding me we were done, and no longer acting out in other ways (the job search had ended, she was no longer looking at apartment listings, and she had not messaged any guys on the dating site in a few weeks).

On the second day of the retreat, on the lunch break we were waiting for a table at a restaurant. I was on my phone and she asked "What are you doing, picking up girls?" I laughed the comment off. Then came the rebellion "It would be perfectly ok if you were." Here we were, at a Christian couples retreat, supposedly working on our marriage, and she is telling me it would be ok if I found someone else. I spiraled. The entire lunch was one long R talk. Essentially, after a day an a half of being bombarded with messages about being committed to the one you married, and marriage being for life, and the Biblical principles about marriage, and God hating divorce, she was feeling "stuck". Her word. And even though things had been great, I had been awesome, she could see some light in actually staying, she felt like she would miss an opportunity at being happy if she gave up on her plan of getting a job, getting an apartment, and getting a divorce.

The next day, on the ride home, we were back to our old selves. I mean back like when we were dating. It was fun, it was light. We thoroughly enjoyed our time together. It was as if she finally let her guard down and moved back to the MR. From that point on she has been consistent in working on the MR and wanting to stay. We only really had one discussion since then (outside of MC) related to our R and that was when I asked her if she still wanted to leave. Her answer was "As we have fun, and our conversation is fun and light, the thought of staying becomes less bad, and the thought of leaving doesn't seem as good." (I've documented this in the past, but I will stop here for sake of brevity.)

So yes, the rebelling against their second thoughts is a real dynamic. And sometimes, even after it appears they've decided to stay they will have that one last OOMPH rebellion. The key is you won't need if it is the last one for a long time. And you shouldn't try to guess that it is. The job of the LBS is still DBing! GAL (this cannot be over emphasized), 180s, Detach!! and be the best you can be.

[SteveLW]

You're mind reading, hanging on to everything she says. What about her actions?

Don't try to predict the future here either. I know you want that crystal ball that tells you everything is going to work out but no one knows.

I suppose you're right. Obviously it's hard not to get hung up on what she says, cause that's all I really have to process. I'm not sure what kind of actions I should be looking for or aware of. I mean, short of her getting on her knees and begging forgiveness, what would you consider a positive action? Her little EA aside, she's not really a 'first move' kind of person, in any aspect of life.

Be aware that rarely is there a "getting on her knees and begging forgiveness" moment. The only one I can think of is a poster named hoosjim had his wife do this but only in reaction to some very specific actions he talked. Namely he left, moved into a hotel, and didn't come back until she was ready to recommit to the MR. Based on your posting so far T I am guessing you aren't willing to go to those lengths. Likely you will move into R and piecing gradually without a big bang event. In fact, at first you won't even realize it until you are a few weeks in and realize that she hasn't been engaging in the behavior that was destructive to the marriage for quite a while.

My advice...SLOW DOWN. Slow and steady wins the race. You will get no where fast if you try to rush things. WASs/WWs need to come around on their own time. It could be weeks. It could be months. It could be years!

This brings up another dynamic I've seen. Where the LBS is less interested in actual R and piecing as much as they are just trying to prove the can get her back! This is danger zone time. I've seen this with other posters, even some that have gone beyong the point of no return, where they insist they aren't even interested in ever getting back together with their WAS, but their actions and words belie them. You can tell they want validation of an apology, or to see some remorse, or even for the WAS to want to come back, (or at least say they do). Again this is a cheeseless tunnel. It will continue to trip you up emotionally and it will cause you to do and say things that are detrimental to your sitch, to yourself, and to future coparenting if you never get back together.

Often these LBS have also convinced themselves that they were completely in the right and some huge flaw on their WASs part is wholly to blame for the divorce. First, this is hardly ever true. It might be true in < .01% of all cases. I have witnessed dozens, if not 100s of marriage to collapse in my nearly 50 years on this earth. In every case there were mistakes made by the WAS that contributed to that marriage's failure. I can't think of one where that wasn't the case. Even if it was a simple as turning a blind eye to warning signs PRIOR to getting married. I know I am guilty of this myself in my marriage and could give you specific examples where I did this. But the point is that there aren't any innocent parties in the collapse of a marriage.

[DavidUK]

Wow Steve, that makes a lot of sense to me. ILs bought a house 2 years ago before W left. Unbeknownst to me at the time W gave them some money towards buying it. W had tantrums and constant negatively about us. At night she was sleeping right on the edge of the bed. W didn't help much at home nor made time for us. As a result I become more demanding. We would have a lovely day out and W would often go in a mood on the way home spoiling it. W deliberately tried to orchestrate arguments. I often tried to communicate about my hurt feelings and she told me I didn't feel like that.

A relative of mine died and I W seemed annoyed. I think W had already been planning to leave and thought she'd better stay a bit longer when she didn't want to do so.

W wasn't by my side much at the funeral. She got angry with me when I asked about it. I suspected she might be seeing someone else and she got very angry with me. It well might just have been her planning to leave but I'm not sure.

[Terapin]

Steve, all I can say is, 'thank you'. Both of those were awesome. I know there's going to be a ton more ups and downs, regardless if we work on it or divorce.

The reason I was curious about the rebellion stuff, cause like an idiot, I've obviously been trying to process all of this. I know it doesn't work that way, or specifically any 'way'. But I"m still just trying to get some glimpse into what she's thinking about now. Here's the basic bullet point timeline of my sitch, at least as much as I know:

1. W goes to concert w/ my brother, his W, a couple who are our best friends, and a male employee of said couple who's been recently kicked out by his W, and is staying w/ our friends. (find out from W weeks later that she had an 'awakening' at the concert, and also hit on OM)

2. 4 days later, BD. She's done. Doesn't want to work on it. Sees no future. etc, etc

3. 2 days later I tell her I think we should work on it. I'm being stupidly nice. Not begging or anything, just kinda overly helpful and understanding. Unbeknownst to me, she has been begun texting this idiot from the concert.

4. Another week goes by. She's made no further progress on separation, divorce, etc. We have a small fight and I hand her a list of household assets. Still texting w/ OM.

5. Another week goes by. Very little R talk, except for her still 'processing' things. Friends and SIL telling me she's still confused about stuff, and not sure which way she wants to go.

6. Saturday night of that week, she stays out till 4am, at a party with OM and some young 21 yo guys. She later said at this point, her and OM were no longer texting. (This is where/why I thought may be her big 'rebellion' btw)

7. Sunday. I'm furious, and I tell her I'm filing the next day. Throughout the day, word starts trickling in through my brother and SIL, and mutual friends that something has been amiss w/ W and OM.

8. Monday. I meet w/ our mutual friends, who drop a nuclear bomb on me regarding the sitch. W admits to some of it, denies some of it, apologizes profusely, nothing physical, etc, etc.

9. Next week and a half, I'm (at least trying) to be completely detached. Following (best I can) Sandi's rules. She seemed to be much more talkative, helping me with household stuff, cooking dinner together, etc.

10. A few days ago she buys concert tix without me (another rebellion?). We have first real R in 2 weeks. Half fight, half reconcilliation talk. She apologizes nonstop, tries getting me to see what brought her/us to that point, is still unsure of things, etc. When she asks what I want, i tell her my feelings (if we work on us, you have to commit 100%, you have to get yourself together, etc). She says when the stuff about OM came out, it was like someone hit her in the head with a bat, and knocked her back into reality. She was able to realize WTF she's been doing, how much of an idiot she was, how she hurt everyone etc. She then said she has 2 referrals for MCs, and has scheduled an IC for herself. But still not sure about 'us'

That's basically where we're at now. Sorry that was long, and probably kind of pointless. Just typing stuff is somewhat therapeutic I guess.

[Terapin]

W got home from work late tonight. Doesn't really say much of anything. I know it was a long day for her. As far as I know, she had her first IC appt this evening. As she got ready for bed I just asked 'how was your IC appt? Did you like her?' She replied "it was good, ya, she's nice'. That was it. I wasn't going to bring it up at all, but I know if I didn't, I could see her saying in the future 'you didn't even ask about my IC appt!'

Did I make the right move? Should I ask about it again tomorrow? I honestly feel it's her IC, and none of my business, unless she wants it to be