I think people of all socioeconomic backgrounds cheat, lie, betray, get addicted to drugs and alcohol. I dont agree that hardship keeps them in check. Lets not romantacize the working class. That argument in itself sounds a bit classist.
For sure all types of people can have these types of problems. My main point was that while anyone can blow up a family, if Donald Trump goes off the rails he could blow up the planet. In some ways more resources can mean more destruction. I'm not dying on the hill that people today are able to cause more destruction with their dysfunction than in the past, it was just an idea I was toying with.
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I also dont blame society. I think ending marriage or committing acts that end marriages (cheating) is an individual decision. Its a choice each individual makes. And to blame it on society, absolves them of responsibility.
People are responsible for their decisions, but society defines the rules to the game.
For example, in society A 95% of adults are married and remain married. Extramarital sex is taboo. Affairs and divorce are condemned. Everyone is generally raised with this outlook. Society B, though, 50% of the adult population doesn't marry, 50% of those that do split up, singles continuously engage in extramarital sex, and affairs and divorce are commonplace. Each individual determines their own set of rules to play by and they can find plenty of support for whatever they feel like doing, be it divorce, affairs, etc. Now...in which society are you going to see more of these types of behavior?
You're right. Each individual makes their choice. But to me there is no question that there are going to be a lot of people that might have avoided these roads had they not been so readily available and so widely accepted and encouraged.
I'm not sure I "blame" society. I think I let go of any expectation of how I think the world ought to be to some degree. It was like hitting my head into a brick wall. The world isn't changing because I don't like it. So I just kind of shrugged and am mostly able to accept it for what it is. Then I just have to decide what choices I want to make within this weird landscape. I may not personally believe in these things, but it's not my world. In some ways there's nothing to blame society for, because by definition if the majority is ok with everything then nothing wrong really occurred. If there are no rules, can you break them?
Maybe that's not quite it, but it's late and that's the best I can explain it. People are flawed humans living in a weird world. I don't have to like it, but apparently this is how it's going to be. I'll just try to pass my beliefs on to my kids, but I'll also have to warn them that most people aren't playing by the same set of rules.
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Do you support presidents like clinton and Trump who blatantly dismiss marriage? I believe jordan Peterson said he suppprted trump? Is that hypocritical and where is your stance on the hypocritical? Do you sweep it under the rug because you suppport their bigger ideologies?
I am not a Trump fan. I'm not sure if poor morals would eliminate a political candidate from contention in my mind or if I could just elect who I thought would do the best job. I'm not marrying the person, I just want them to do their job. When I was a manager I had employees and bosses that did things I didn't approve of, I left it at the office. I wouldn't be close with them, but it's pretty hard to wall off the majority of the population for acting in ways I disagree with. But there is a line I suppose that goes too far, and yeah, for me Trump has crossed it. Plus I haven't voted republican before.
As for Jordan Peterson, he's not a big Trump fan either. I think he flippantly said he would have walked into the voting booth with the intention of voting for Clinton, then saying the heck with it and voting for Trump. He believed in Hillary because she had the experience, but he was more opposed to her identity politics than he was to Trumps idiocy. Something like that. But again, I don't have to agree with him on every topic to find value in some of what he says.
On that note I wanted to share this with you guys. The first guy I found in a long time that views this similarly to me. OK, I can't do links but these are easily searchable on YouTube. Agree or not, I think they are interesting and not too long:
Jordan Peterson: The Real Reason To Get Divorced and Married Jordan Peterson: Divorce May Ruin You
What I find amazing is that after he lays out a really good reason to stay married, the first question he gets (beginning of the 2nd video) is from someone in the audience argues that there are times when leaving a marriage is the only option. I laughed when I heard this. Typical. You can lay it on the table like "Here is why divorce doesn't work", and people immediately try to find the exception that they can use to justify their lack of commitment. I just shrug and say, yeah, you beat to that drum along with the rest of the world, see how it works for you.
I get it, there's a trade off between freedom and commitment. We live in a world where personal freedom is considered paramount. JP is a believer in voluntary enslavement in the form of commitment and responsibility.
He makes a case that in life there is suffering, and there are two strategies to try to handle that:
1. Try to avoid any commitments that could infringe on your freedom, then use your freedom to pursue pleasure and try to avoid discomfort. The problem is that you can't hide from suffering in life, it gets us all, and without anything meaningful to justify suffering the pain is even worse. And chasing pleasure is not the road to fulfillment.
2. Taking on responsibilities. This provides purpose and meaning. You will still suffer, but you'll have a reason to endure the suffering, your purpose. JP says "You want to have a meaningful life? Everything you do matters." He goes on to point out that is difficult, but the alternative is to forego the whole meaning thing.
My young pool playing friend believes in option 1. He avoids any commitments and responsibilities, and he's trying to amass enough wealth to have no financial obligations driving his behavior either. His dream is to be free to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with nothing limiting his choices. Without giving it much thought I think many people fall into assuming this is the optimal way to approach life. I think it's foolish and empty. And there is no way to outrun the suffering in life, so in the end it will get him just the same and he'll have nothing to hold on to. Potentially. It's not all or nothing and I wish him the best.
My best friend agrees. And it's a good thing to remember. There are days when we wish we were rich so we didn't have to deal with our jobs and problems, but then we remind ourselves and each other that we've taken on responsibilities that make us full. That the greener grass of a desert island somewhere isn't the answer. That we are blessed to have the weight we carry, because it's an honor to serve and give purpose to our suffering in this way.
I don't agree with JP on everything, but these are some of the things that resonated with me.
Thanks for posting Juju!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Oh, I like his reply too..."I can't promise you'll always solve your problems...but there's no guarantee sequential relationships will be differnt"
Then he goes on with listing all the other damage, but this was something people overlook. People tend to assume that they can get what they desire if they look hard enough because hey, they're special and they deserve it. I think the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I don't agree with JP on everything, but these are some of the things that resonated with me.
Zues126,
My first exposure to JP was his lectures that were posted to YouTube. Watching those videos, it became very clear the JP put a lot of time and effort into thinking about the human condition and his clinical practice gave him plenty of exposure to the vagaries of human existence.
Like you, I don't agree with JP on everything, but I know his intentions are good and I know he's a deep thinker. I don't consider myself to be a JP follower or disciple, and I certainly don't want to hump his leg. But, I've often noticed that if I mention JP, I'm almost immediately tagged as one of those "JP guys." For some reason, whatever it is at the core JP's message, its seems to be very polarizing. I suspect, and it's just a guess, that for many people, the idea of personal responsibility isn't the message they want to hear.
I also like Sam Harris, April Wilkerson, Richard Dawkins, Sean Carroll and Joe Rogan (I'd hump his leg). But, none of them seem to garner the automatic "you're one of those" reflex that occurs when you mention JP.
That's a great questions G and gets to the heart of the matter. I think it's healthier to stay married and grind it out, even if much of the marriage is miserable and unfulfilling.
I could build a good case for why it's better that the marriage ended. For sure I am in a better spot now than when I was married. Less conflict. Less resentment. Less dysfunction. When contrasting that to an unhappy marriage with hostility I can see why it's easy for so many people to buy the "It's better to model being happy" narrative.
First of all, this makes a HUGE assumption: That NEITHER of us would have grown or changed, EVER. I don't believe this for a moment. Even if she never changed, if I could be the man I am now in my marriage I could've done enough to eliminate most of the dysfunction on my own. Could I have inspired her to take that journey along with me? Maybe, maybe not. And realistically the answer is probably to some degree. Not to the degree I desire, but more than not at all. But if I budged a lot and she budged even a tiny bit I think it could've turned into a strong, lifelong partnership.
To be fair, the divorce was a catalyst for much of my growth. But I can't credit that to the divorce. XW kind of thinks this way in justifying the D, she told me once "If this is what it took for you to be a better father then it's worth it". I don't buy that at all. That's like if she shot me and while in the hospital I realized how fleeting life was and became a better person. Does she get credit for my growth because she shot me??? NO. Would I have grown on my own in the marriage? Absolutely. It would've looked different, but I wouldn't have been stagnant forever, that's not who I am.
OK, but now assuming that neither of us ever grew or changed, and the marriage would have been miserable for the rest of our days. I still believe it would've been worth keeping together. On the surface this makes no sense. We weren't on speaking terms during some periods, didn't touch each other for months at a time, and there was a lot of resentment. But even in the midst of this, we were in love. I would pay the bills, pick her up her favorite dinner, get her something on her birthday. She would grocery shop and make my favorite meal for me, and stock the granola bars I liked that I started each day with. Little things in the middle of the storm that showed a love that was rooted deeply enough to survive the storm.
More importantly it was my purpose. Like I said in my last post, responsibility is sacrifice which gives meaning to our lives. I had a purpose to endure the suffering of life: To be a husband. Even if she decided to be a horrible W her entire life, I had someone I could serve that gave meaning to my life. Her decision not to meet my needs wouldn't interfere with me meeting my deepest needs in loving and serving her all my life.
I think that's the crux. People think marriage is about getting, not giving. And in today's world people think they should look to get more, instead of realizing that true fulfillment comes from giving more. People dating are all about trying to find someone that meets all of these expectations. In reality there is no one that could do enough for you to make you feel fulfilled, while most people that have the character to stick around could allow you to achieve your own fulfillment by giving your life to them.
Yes, I am doing better than I ever have in my life. But that has come from me finding my own happiness. There is a hole in my heart where I miss having someone to love, someone that drives me to power through the obstacles of life, someone to know that I am here and witness my life. Right now I have my children in my life, and my mother and father. But they have their own lives to live. I love playing pool and am having a blast in my life. But there is something very profound missing from all of it.
Look at it this way. Suppose you had a child that was mentally challenged, and possibly physically as well. And that child passed away. Would your life be easier? For sure. Would you be able to pour more resources into your hobbies? Go out for wine with friends when you wanted? Absolutely. But no one (or most people that aren't horrible) would choose for their child to die. They'd happily sacrifice all of those things and endure a difficult road if it meant they could care for their child and celebrate the time together, even if it was paved with hardship.
I know there's an argument about what we model for our kids. As far as I'm concerned I'd like to model these values and outlooks to my children as well.
This idea that it's best not to be 'taken advantage of' by giving more than you get, being self sufficient so you can be nobody's fool and not having to put up with disrespect from a partner that doesn't treat you right, and the focus on the superficial pleasures you can achieve when you unchain yourself from the oppression of a vow...this is the Devil's best lie in my estimation. It's very convincing. It reminds me of this quote:
She remembered the story from her childhood, about Adam and Eve in the garden, and the talking snake. Even as a little girl she had said - to the consternation of her family - What kind of idiot was Eve, to believe a snake? But now she understood, for she had heard the voice of the snake and had watched as a wise and powerful man had fallen under its spell. Eat the fruit and you can have the desires of your heart. It's not evil, it's noble and good. You'll be praised for it. And it's delicious.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I don't really have time for an update so maybe for once I'll keep it short. Today is not just father's day, it's my four year antiversary! I can't believe how different things are in my world.
It's been a fun weekend. Yesterday I played pool for 12 hours on tough equipment, first practicing, then sparring with a good local player. I was so tired last night, and pool shots kept replying in my mind. Awesome day.
Today I will be picking my kids up to watch Incredibles 2. I am so lucky to be their dad. They are awesome and interesting people, it's a privilege to be the one that gets to chaperone their childhood. After that I'm meeting my best friend for a couple hours of pool, then we're going to an upscale steakhouse for dinner, and finally going to the Jordan Peterson event where I booked us VIP and meet and greet tickets. Why not!
Thank you guys for helping me through the last four years.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
So the Jordan Peterson event was pretty cool. There were a lot of good moments, but to me the most profound had to do with cynicism. Keep in mind that he is a long time clinical psychologist with books on this subject, so it's a well thought out viewpoint.
Basically he said that there were three states. We start out naive, totally oblivious to the malevolence in the world. We tend to think things are all good. Then we are betrayed and hurt, sometimes terribly. At that point we fall into cynicism. We start to think that things are all bad. Eventually we can find a balance in which we understand that while it's true that things are good, that's only part of it, and it's only part of it that things are bad. They are both.
He got chuckles when he talked about people moving from naivety to cynicism say when we feel everything is bad "Not entirely, but you're one step closer to the truth!"
It also doesn't mean we only fall into one category. We might be naive about some things, cynical about other areas, and very mature in others.
This really was profound to me. Juju, you have mentioned how high my walls seem to be. And this is absolutely correct. I've had a couple of moments of clarity in the last 12-18 months in which I have seen that. It's more than an impenetrable forcefield, it's almost like a magnetic repulsion in which pushes back against the outside world as it approaches.
Now, I'm not saying that's all bad. I am nice and cozy and doing better than ever. And I think there are some very rational reasons to keep these walls right where they are.
But I'll absolutely admit that they might not be there rationally and strategically, but defensively and reflexively out of cynicism and fear of being hurt.
If I was through my cynicism to the maturity phase would I take down my walls? I don't know. Probably some of them some of the time. But I can't say from where I sit. But it's nice to get a shot of hope that as I work through my sitch, someday it may feel differently. And it would be nice to be in control of my defenses instead of the other way around.
My IC said recovery after a D is a long process. He used 5 years as a benchmark. I'm 4 years out. There's so much more to it than not wanting to R, or being ok without your WAS. I'm starting to see that. It really changes the way you view the entire world and how your brain and body act independently of your consciousness to protect you. I'm curious where I'll be in another four years.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Happy belated father's day Zues! There really is no greater gift in this world than getting to be a parent, in my personal opinion.
I did read your very thoughtful reply to me, and to be honest, I just didn't know how to answer back. I know why yo feel the way you do.
I guess I do think you were meant to be a husband, as you said. I think I was meant to be a wife. I wish you would give a second chance at the husband thing, but I know why you won't.
Yes, recovery from D is a long process. And honestly, I don't think I felt recovered until the 5 year mark, if I am being totally honest. My issues now are residual issues of divorce that don't go away, but I am pretty far on my recovery, definitely with some scars, no doubt about that.
I am glad life is treating you good, you are enjoying your kids and some fun activities that spark passion in you.
