Navigating through and concentrating on myself #6

[Dtrmned]

At 11 pages so I thought a new thread was in order.
Link to the old thread...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2809772&page=1

Changed the title on this one. I am detaching more and doing better. I do not know if my detaching more has me thinking my W is doing the same, or if it is just the product of my detachment and that I am not hanging on everything she does any more. Thought about that this week and I think it is the later. W is going to do what she is going to do, what are the odds that she decided to change the exact moment that I am. Almost zero since she hasn't progressed with anything in so long.

I am keeping busy. Working out still very regularly. Concentrating on work more and that is really good. Also focusing on my kids as always and making sure they are on track with being back to school, having conversations and some fun as well.

I am finding that the longer this goes on and the detachment grows, I feel way more distant to my W. I am still pleasant and polite, but I am happier not being such a doormat like I was. I am GAL this weekend. Taking the kids out a few times for errands and for fun. If W goes, so be it.

I mentioned that our anniversary is this weekend. I am not dwelling on it, but it is on my mind. How could it not be? But, I am resigned to do nothing (unless approached about it), no sappy cards or gifts period. I will probably do the casual mention on the day just the passing "Happy Anniversary" to W that day just to recognize it.

Lots of moving parts. Retaining an A today so I can plan, strategize and draw up the paperwork. This will help me feel like I am doing something while I am detaching more and will be productive in opening my eyes to how things may look. I have always been prepared when a task is before me, so doing this is part of my process. I also believe that seeing and going through the items will be good for me as this part is just business (outside of time with the kids and parenting of course) and the nuts and bolts is more in my wheelhouse.

Comments, suggestions, 2x4's etc are always welcome.

In case you were wondering. I still love my W. I still dislike the situation I am in. I want to keep my family together. I am keeping the faith that as long as she is here and we are in the same home, there is a chance. I don't know if the odds increase the longer she is here or if I am just enabling her by providing everything (financial) that she needs while she is preparing in some way for her exit when our lease is up early next year.

No idea. I can't mind read. I can only observe and see. Some days she is pleasant, others cold and distant, others she is just sleeping and not around any of us. She is never affectionate, never flirty, nothing like that at all. We haven't touched in several weeks.

I know I am probably in my head on this, but I feel as I said above that she is becoming more distant as well and that we are just growing apart more and more each day. Is this a normal feeling? Is it the right way for this to go? I know she has to realize and see her fantasy world crumble prior to even the slightest inclination of her looking forward at us as an option.

[AnotherStander]

In case you were wondering. I still love my W. I still dislike the situation I am in. I want to keep my family together. I am keeping the faith that as long as she is here and we are in the same home, there is a chance. I don't know if the odds increase the longer she is here or if I am just enabling her by providing everything (financial) that she needs while she is preparing in some way for her exit when our lease is up early next year.

We really don't have good data for this, but it seems like based on the stories we get here that situations rarely improve when the couple remains under the same roof. It's not unheard of, just very unusual. Either they end up splitting or they settle into an indefinite "in house separation" where they are living as roommates under the same roof (usually out of convenience and for financial reasons).

I know I am probably in my head on this, but I feel as I said above that she is becoming more distant as well and that we are just growing apart more and more each day. Is this a normal feeling? Is it the right way for this to go?

It is normal to detach with time, it sounds like that is what you're describing. She's already been detached for quite some time. You'll eventually get there too. After you're fully detached, then she may eventually learn to miss you and see that things weren't as bad as her fog made her think. But that's still months or even years down the road.

[Dtrmned]

A quick weekend update.
On the MR side, a very memorable and sad weekend.
Our anniversary came and went. No word to each other at all.
W was actually more pleasant that day, asking little things that she normally wouldn't so that was nice I guess.
A few hikes over the long weekend and spent some time with my kids. I avoided any kind of serious discussions and only initiated conversations as they related to the kids or some household issue. No R or MR talks at all.

Secured my A and have a meeting with them next week. I am not excited about this, but I do need to be prepared, know where I stand and be ready.

So other than the Anniversary sadness (I would imagine she remembered it too, but didn't show much either). And no one saw me sad in the lease. It was a rather uneventful weekend. I got a lot done around the house, did some work and ran the kids where ever they needed as they had a fairly full weekend.

These last several days I know I am way more detached and the day-to-day drama that consumed me is no longer there. There are moments that it still overwhelms me, but these are fewer and farther between. I have taken my W off the pedestal and looking at her not as my W but as another human being. This is helping immensely as I can see how difficult her life may be if we D. No drive, No job, health issues galore, no "real" friends (I don't count internet friends), chronic issues that would keep her from eating out, dancing, staying up late let alone drinking, hiking, or just social interaction that scares her to death and exhausts her quickly. Should she change her mind and want to focus on our MR to get to a better 2.0, I would happily stand by her side. Knowing she wants nothing to do with me (other than pay the bills) is not acceptable.

[SteveLW]

JS I know the anniversary coming and going without fanfare makes you sad. However, this is a good thing. Whether she remembered or not, believe you me that she took notice. And the fact you didn't bring it up or act sad made a statement to her. And your improved detachment will have an impact too. You have been in limbo since March. That is 6 months that your D has been busted so far! That is great. In March if I had told you you'd be where you are in 6 months you would have taken it (I suspect). And while limbo is not fun, it is a stepping stone to R as long as you are willing to wait it out.

Notice: "Should she change her mind and want to focus on our MR to get to a better 2.0, I would happily stand by her side."

The question is how much patience do you have to let her get there? I know you followed this with an unacceptable statement, and that is always in your power to decide, but one thing you will always wonder is what would have happened if you could have held on for one more day (apologies to Wilson Philips).

[Dtrmned]

Steve,
Yes. I would have told you 6 months ago that I saw zero way that we would still be in the same home and I would have taken this situation in a heartbeat. We are physically together, but definitely in different parts of our brain and different parts of our lives. Whether our paths have a chance to intersect again I do not know. I do know that my engaging the A just to dig in a little more and keep myself busy is good. It is/will help me detach more as well as outside of the time with my kids, everything else is just a financial arrangement and very impersonal (hence good for detachment). I am committed to more GAL activities. Luckily my company is active in our industry so there are a couple of times a month that I can get out at least for those. Along with the good efforts in working out (I feel and look better than I have in 20 years!) I just keep plugging along. I sometimes get stuck in a rut for a few, but those moments seem to be happening less and the time I am stuck is shorter prior to me getting back on track. Concentrating on my kids more and they are responding better. Had some great talks with my D this weekend while I was her taxi and I loved it!

New week.

[Dtrmned]

journaling a bit.
I seem to be exhausted lately, all the time. I am still working out everyday, but the weight of this situation is having a profound effect on my overall attitude. As far as anyone else is concerned (work, kids, W, etc.) I am fine and life is going on and good. Outside of that, I find myself taking some time to try to catch up. I haven't slept well in years, so I don't feel it is that. I am good on 4-5 hours of sleep. It just feels like utter exhaustion and for no reason. The last week or so, I have taken some time to just rest my head at work (door closed obviously) and I've even pulled into a park a few times and just sat on a bench, leaned my head back and closed my eyes for about 30-45 minutes. Nothing seems to help with this. I do not feel sick in any way, still have an appetite, etc, but my body seems to be just telling me it cannot handle any more. Any more of what I do not know.

I do not have time for any other intrusions in my life right now. My focus is on my kids, work and of course db'ing and my W. DB'ing almost comes naturally now although I do reflect quite often, re-read links/posts/rules to make sure I am on the right path. I know what I need to improve on and do my best to not let anything intrude.

Mentioned earlier I got an A and meeting with them next week. I can only dream this is an effort in futility just to keep me busy. I fear it is not. My W has not mentioned anything, although yesterday she was a touch playful with her small talk. That was fun. I took it and moved on. She has done nothing towards anything (that I know of). Nothing towards a D and nothing towards us starting to R. NOTHING. I had to make a decision on the health insurance with little to no input from her. Our lease is up in a few months, I feel a lot of pressure on this front.

I know I am not supposed to initiate any R talks, but how do I approach this subject knowing it is an R subject when it comes up? I have to start planning, looking, saving, etc for our new place. Is it "our new place" or is it where we split and it becomes "her" place and "my" place? I just don't know. I believe that presently she would stay in this state of limbo indefinitely. She is not happy, she is depressed, she does not do anything, BUT I do think she knows that if/when we are done that her world will drastically change. Is she working on her plan A? If she is, she is very devious and secretive about it and she isn't doing anywhere but from her phone/tablet as she rarely goes anywhere.

How am I supposed to plan out my life and the kid's lives and make these decisions? Do I include her in the discussion? Or do I just plan accordingly and if she tags along then so be it? I don't like the position we are in, it is so much better than when I started DB'ing. We aren't fighting and having out every other day or even once a week. We haven't fought in over a month and it is much more calm around the household.

I'm sure they may surface at times, but gone are the days of my minute to minute obsessing about what she is thinking/doing/going to do, etc. I just do my thing daily. I need to get more GAL activities and luckily this month there are a few work related events that will "force" me out.

My kids are awesome and they do not deserve to be in this limbo situation either. I see if affecting them. Especially my D. I think that this is going to have a very long term affect on her views on relationships and marriage. How could it not? She has heard (through our various arguments) that I would do anything to keep our family together. She has also heard that her Mom says it is over and wants nothing to do with me. I go back to the part of how my D looks up to her Mom and now sees her Mom living with a man she says she wants nothing to do with, sleeping in the same bed with him, and sometimes doing fun things with him. How can my D not be affected by this? So its ok to sleep with someone you want absolutely nothing to do with? What does my D really thing? Does she think that I am a bad person? Does she think I am weak since I am sleeping in the same bed of someone who admittedly doesn't want to be with me? My S sees most of the same, but he is way younger and doesn't get it. He has seen some changes and he is intelligent so I imagine he feels the tension and knows something is askew.

What do I do?

[SteveLW]

Not sleeping well for years will eventually catch up to you. 4-5 hours/night is not enough, especially when dealing with stress. Have you spoken to a dr about your sleep?

[Dtrmned]

yes. I have taken ambien sparingly but my body will still wake up after the 4-5 hours. I don't believe this is stress related as even when I have been doing well, my body has never required much more sleep. Sometimes I can sleep for 6-7 hours and its good but mostly it is the 4-5. If I wake up and my mind clicks, I might as well get up. I've been this way probably since I can remember, at least since High School so way over 30 years.

[sandi2]

I seem to be exhausted lately, all the time. I am still working out everyday, but the weight of this situation is having a profound effect on my overall attitude.

Depression can be disguised as fatigue. Not sleeping well or enough hours is another sign of depression. Some people have good results when they take St. John's Wort for depression, and Melatonin for sleep aid. Both are OTC. You have to figure out the dosage that works best for you when taking Melatonin. Too little, and you'll wake up too soon. I never felt "hung over" when taking Melatonin, like is common with prescription sleeping pills. Depression never caused me to lose my appetite.

but my body seems to be just telling me it cannot handle any more. Any more of what I do not know.

I have to challenge you a little bit here. When you look at the stitch you've been in for quite some time, plus the additional stress you cause for yourself (over-thinking everything), is it any wonder you are exhausted and your body is talking to you? You may not feel sick, but if you continue being your own worst enemy......you might get there. I encourage you to get a checkup and tell the doctor how you feel exhausted and aren't sleeping enough at night.

She has done nothing towards anything (that I know of). Nothing towards a D and nothing towards us starting to R. NOTHING. I had to make a decision on the health insurance with little to no input from her. Our lease is up in a few months, I feel a lot of pressure on this front.

Well, I'm repeating myself, but I don't think she's going to do a darn thing as long as things continue going this way. MWD says whenever the spouse gets too comfortable with the limbo stage......do something to change things. I think you need to do something that gets her out of her comfy position. This is just one of the reasons you need to leave the house at least one evening out of the weekday.....alone. No kids, no wife, and no details about where, what, and with whom. All you say is that you are going out, and don't wait up. You don't tell when you'll be home, or anything else. Can you just do that one thing? I'm sorry, but I think you are using your W and kids as your cover for not GAL. Your kids are old enough that it won't damage them for dad to go out for two or three hours on a weeknight. They are not the problem to you going out. YOU are the problem! Stir things up by becoming a bit unpredictable.

You need to stir things up for her. She has it too easy, and she's too comfortable in this limbo. Stop waiting for her to make the decisions. Do what you want to do. That is moving forward with or without her......by doing what you want to do.

I know I am not supposed to initiate any R talks, but how do I approach this subject knowing it is an R subject when it comes up?

Treat it like business. Don't get off into all the personal ying-yang about the MR.

YOU: "I have a decision to make about the lease coming up soon. I invite your input. If you choose not to share your thoughts about it, then I will accept that as your answer to mean you don't intend to live with us.....and I will act accordingly".

I have to start planning, looking, saving, etc for our new place. Is it "our new place" or is it where we split and it becomes "her" place and "my" place?

Don't say anything until you talk to the attorney. Once you speak with your attorney, you will know more about what to expect with the finances. Will you have to pay spousal support? Will you have to pay child support if the kids live with you 50% of the time, etc.

YOU: "If you want to live with me, then you need to tell me. Otherwise, I will move on without you, and you will be responsible for your own housing and expenses".

If she won't cooperate, then act as if she will not be living with you. If the attorney says you'll have to pay $$ amount of support, then plan with that in mind. You've constantly tossed this around in your head since the beginning, and it has not served you one bit. What's the point? Find out what the state dictates, and act accordingly. Just b/c she wants to play games doesn't mean you have to stay stuck. If you plan to get a new place, and she happens to change her mind and want to stay with you after not renewing the lease.......how would that affect things?

I believe that presently she would stay in this state of limbo indefinitely.

Absolutely!

She is not happy, she is depressed, she does not do anything, BUT I do think she knows that if/when we are done that her world will drastically change. Is she working on her plan A? If she is, she is very devious and secretive about it and she isn't doing anywhere but from her phone/tablet as she rarely goes anywhere.

How am I supposed to plan out my life and the kid's lives and make these decisions? Do I include her in the discussion? Or do I just plan accordingly and if she tags along then so be it?

Yes, absolutely! Unless.......you decide you don't want her. That's the key that I have wanted you to see to this entire situation. You talk like a victim.....but you are not a victim. Only you get to decide if you'll be a victim or not. B/c whether or not you see it, you do have a voice in your future plans.

Let's say she tags along. Haven't you been saying all this time that you wanted your family to stay together? Would getting a different house mean that the relationship with her would change? I doubt it. So, would you be willing to continue living in the save stitch but in a different house? That's your choice. If you don't want her tagging along, then tell her. First, find out how much percentage you will be mandated to pay her for support. Secondly, decide which way works best for you. I'm not talking about what you wish would come true. I'm talking dealing with reality. Based on nothing but the facts as there are right now, what will work better for you?

I need to get more GAL activities and luckily this month there are a few work related events that will "force" me out.

Those don't count.

"How can my D not be affected by this?" She willbe affected.
"So its ok to sleep with someone you want absolutely nothing to do with?" Since you are the one sleeping with her, then you have to make that decision. Do you see the marital bedroom as the symbolic core of unity & love in the home? Do the kids?
"What does my D really thing?" I'll check in my crystal ball. (OK, so it's not funny. The only b@lls I believe work, aren't made of crystal, anyway.)
"Does she think that I am a bad person?" Bad? I doubt it, but compared to whom or what? Most 14 year old girls think their dad is weird, but not bad.
"Does she think I am weak since I am sleeping in the same bed of someone who admittedly doesn't want to be with me?" Do you think she'd see you in a better light if you asked your W to sleep somewhere else........considering your W's issues with pain, etc.? What would D14 or S8 think if they saw dad sleeping on the couch?
"My S sees most of the same, but he is way younger and doesn't get it." Oh, don't kid yourself. (No pun intended.)
"He has seen some changes and he is intelligent so I imagine he feels the tension and knows something is askew." Well, there you go. Would it make things better or worse?

[AnotherStander]

She has done nothing towards anything (that I know of). Nothing towards a D and nothing towards us starting to R. NOTHING. I had to make a decision on the health insurance with little to no input from her. Our lease is up in a few months, I feel a lot of pressure on this front.

I agree with Sandi, based on everything you've told us you're not imagining things, she really isn't doing anything. She is a bit unusual in this regard as usually WAS's are actively pursuing moving out and/ or other relationships whether with friends or romances. But your W is perfectly content to do NOTHING. So it's really all in your court.

I know I am not supposed to initiate any R talks, but how do I approach this subject knowing it is an R subject when it comes up? I have to start planning, looking, saving, etc for our new place. Is it "our new place" or is it where we split and it becomes "her" place and "my" place? I just don't know.

I also agree with Sandi on this point, it's not an R talk if you approach it like a business decision. The one thing I don't -completely- agree on though is giving her the option to move with you. I would be inclined to tell her that you assume she'll be making her own arrangements and to let you know if she needs anything from you. I would personally not under any circumstances let her move with me unless she was committing to working on the M, which it sure sounds like she's not even remotely ready to do. I think the overall tone of your posts is that you are just worn out on this whole deal, and while separation hurts at first, in the long run it will help you recover much faster and better than staying stuck with her under the same roof. In-house separations hardly ever lead to recon. They almost always lead to a sexless, loveless marriage.

I believe that presently she would stay in this state of limbo indefinitely.

Yes. Frankly she doesn't care enough to lift a finger. But you, this is tearing you apart. YOU need to do something.

I think that this is going to have a very long term affect on her views on relationships and marriage. How could it not?

Hard to say, but considering half of marriages end in divorce it's not like this hasn't happened to a zillion other kids.

Does she think that I am a bad person? Does she think I am weak since I am sleeping in the same bed of someone who admittedly doesn't want to be with me?

My younger D was mid-teens when it all went down, and at one point she told me she respected that I worked as hard to save the M as I did. She said sometimes things just don't work out and it's no one's fault. She said us being married 20 years was something to be proud of, that most M's don't make it that long. Kids are smarter and more aware than we give them credit for. Your D doesn't see you as helpless and pathetic, she sees you standing for your M not just for you but for her. THAT is what she will remember no matter what happens.