Terapin, you're seeing some fantastic baby steps. But remember the picnic analogy! Here it is if you're not familiar with it:
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PICNIC ANALOGY: Imagine that the WAS is inside an impenetrable castle. WAS is deep inside the castle walls and has no desire to see the outside world. WAS has his/her own world right there inside those cold, stone walls.
Then there's you. You're sitting on the other side of the moat (drawbridge is up, btw). You've got a nice blanket laid out on the cool, green grass, and you're enjoying yourself by having a wonderful picnic all alone. You're absolutely content with this, and aren't even concerned with the castle and the WAS within (in fact, you've got your back to it).
Eventually, WAS gets a little curious about the what's going on outside the castle, and decides to take a peak over the walls. WAS sees you, just sitting there enjoying yourself. He/She is surprised, because previously you had been throwing rocks at the castle, singing and dancing in hopes of getting their attention. WAS is wondering what you're up to, and why you're so content. After a while, WAS decides to lower the drawbridge and join you at your picnic. WAS sits down, and you just act as if -- you're happy, confident, etc. Suddenly, WAS realized where he/she is and what he/she is doing, and it scares the hell out him/her. WAS jumps up and dashes back to the castle for no apparent reason. You however, didn't even budge or flinch. WAS peeks back out to see what you're doing, and notices that you're still sitting in the same place, enjoying yourself without concern. Again, WAS is surprised, and eventually comes out again. This time WAS stays a little longer, but again gets spooked and runs back. However, you're still not deterred from enjoying your picnic. The WAS's visits begin to happen more and more, and they last longer and longer. Once he/she realizes that there is no risk for him/her (i.e. that you won't bring up the R, pursue her, get angry, become needy, etc), WAS begins to reflect on things, and begins questioning his/her choice to go to the castle. In time, WAS decides to bring up the R, and this is when you can discuss it with him/her because WAS is ready and has initiated the talk.
THIS is why it is important to avoid pursuing, because it gives the WAS the opportunity to miss you, reflect, see your changes and strength, etc. So, the next time me or anyone else tells you to just enjoy your picnic, you'll know what it means. This is a term that we used a lot this summer, but it kind of went away. I think it describes the pursuit dynamic perfectly. Don't chase the WAS back into the castle and hold him/her captive by standing outside the walls and trying to get his/her attention. As long as this is the case, it is likely that they'd rather starve themselves in their castle than come out.
She WILL retreat back into the castle. Probably many times. You just keep having your picnic. Don't INVITE her to the picnic, just have it and enjoy it and let HER approach YOU. No pursuit. No pressure. Let her drive the pace of things, and don't be shocked when she pulls back. Just keep being awesome.
That's great that she joined you in bed. Don't make a big deal out of it though, just celebrate it internally. Externally don't react or say a word.
Steve and AS, thanks. No, I have not, nor will not mention anything about any of her steps unless she brings them up. She mentioned her wedding ring a few days ago (saying she needs to get it 'dipped' again cause it gives her a rash), and I just said 'oh, what does dipped mean?', then listened as she explained it. As for the bed, who knows why she came in there last night. Maybe the dogs were driving her nuts. Maybe she was cold, hot, etc. It doesn't matter, and I won't bring it up.
I do have a question though. What if she brings her 'steps' up? If she'd say like 'I put my ring back on, I'm making plans for us, etc, and you don't even seem to notice or care.' What's the reply?
AS, that is awesome. Thanks for posting that. Yes, I expect her to retreat a few times. Heck I may retreat as well in the future. It's just been weird how well we can work together when we actually put some effort into the marriage. I mean, all I"m really doing is being nice, validating, somewhat aloof, and not arguing about anything. She's pretty much doing the same. It would be great if we could keep this up and it be the new norm, but time will tell and I can't expect that so soon
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
when things are getting dicey, listen and validate. Remember that your reactions are tied to your values, not someone else's crazy emotions.
You don't want to have expectations that she will do the right thing, right away, every time. She will take time to come around fully, if she ever does. That's why you work on your picnic like AS said.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I do have a question though. What if she brings her 'steps' up? If she'd say like 'I put my ring back on, I'm making plans for us, etc, and you don't even seem to notice or care.' What's the reply?
As ovr said: VALIDATE
"Hmm, I can understand how you'd feel that way."
"I hadn't considered that viewpoint, thanks for bringing it to my attention."
Note, you are neither confirming or denying that you didn't notice but you are just validating how she feels about her perception.
Validation is a valuable tool. Use it. It will amaze you how much more positive your interactions with her are. Validating avoids arguments. If she transitions from her feelings to direct questions for you related to R then you say: "I wasn't prepared to discuss this and will need some time to think about my answers."
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I do have a question though. What if she brings her 'steps' up? If she'd say like 'I put my ring back on, I'm making plans for us, etc, and you don't even seem to notice or care.' What's the reply?
Well like Steve said, validate. Here's the thing about a question like this, if you AGREE with her then you are basically saying "you're right, I don't care". If you DISAGREE with her, you are saying "of course I care, how rude of you to say I don't, and in fact you are a liar because I do in fact care." See what I mean? It's a loaded question, any answer is no-win. But if you VALIDATE then you are not agreeing/ disagreeing/ negotiating/ explaining/ etc. So you might respond with "I hear you saying that you feel I'm not being responsive to your changes, does that make you feel angry?" She might respond with "Well I'm not angry, but it's very frustrating." And then you say "Yes I can see how that would be frustrating, I am sorry I made you feel that way." See the difference? You're not answering the question, you are instead seeking to understand her feelings and offering empathy for them.
On the surface my first thought reading that is 'ok, she's not a moron. if she asks a question, she probably wants an answer.' I know I would. but one nice thing about validating is, especially since she's not a moron, she already knows the answer to her question. I'd have to be blind, deaf, and mentally ill not to notice her wearing her ring, crawling into bed, making plans, etc. And as far as if she'd say I don't care, I'd think some of my actions would say otherwise (agreeing to go to some of the plans she makes, having conversations, etc).
Am I on track here? lol. Thankfully that's just a hypothetical question that may or may not ever come up
Last edited by Terapin; 09/11/1807:15 PM.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
1) Because it is right thing to do (at least in their mind) 2) Because they are trying to manipulate someone else and elicit a reaction
If it is #1 rarely will someone say "you don't even seem to notice or care" if it is #1. If they do say "you don't even seem to notice or care" it is usually because their motivation was #2.
If her motivation is #2 then you shouldn't care if she says that or not. You should be more concerned with why she is trying to manipulate you.
Let me give you an example. When my W dropped the bomb the day before Christmas Eve, for the next day and a half she was overly affectionate. Sitting close to me, arm around me, holding my hand, rubbing my back etc. Once I started DBing it stopped.
When things starting moving towards R we had a MC session and it came out that my love language was physical touch. When I pointed out that she wasn't affectionate anymore she pointed to that day and a half and said "I was very affectionate after I told you I wanted a D". I said, "yeah, why, that doesn't make sense?" She said: "Because I knew you were hurting."
So she didn't do it because she was feeling it, she did it because she hurt me and her nice girl syndrome kicked in and she was trying to manipulate me into feeling better about things to ease her own guilt. Manipulation.
So don't worry about whether she thinks you've noticed or not. That is her stuff to work out. You just keep DBing.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I wouldn't necessarily call it a retreat, but W just started laughing a bit and said 'i have no idea how i ended up in bed last night. I don't know if I was sleepwalking or what.' I've known her for 15 years and I've never seen her sleepwalk once, but I guess it's possible. I just said 'yeah that's weird', and went back to doing what I was doing. Grand scheme it's no big deal, but it definitely wasn't the 'moving forward' sign I thought I guess.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
