...twice shy...

[burned]

Oh! I’m seeing it now, the NGS:

“Not specifically, no.” But I AM specifically not talking to her.

So I lied to my W out of fear of how she would react, and how HER reaction would hurt ME.

And I’m not going to pretend it’s the first time.

[joejoe1]

Nice guy syndrome (NGS)

Burn, correct you dont have time in your life for people who treat you with disrespect. You know why! Because you respect yourself too muçh. You are also correct, hold your head high. Feed the good wolf/positive side of your life. Work/live in positivity and detach and your WW affect and hold on you will dissipate.

You are focused on you and for you.

Repeat to yourself. MY FOCUS IS NOT MY W! I ONLY CONTROL BURN. Over and over.

Your wife has made her decision, does that mean it cant change, no! But live off the words she hasnt given you as of now, and not on the words you hope she says tomorrow, the next day or someday.

Burn, you got this!

[sandi2]

I'm working on it, I promise. It's one of my main goals. My new alter-ego, Achilles, isn't a nice guy, but he gets what he wants.

You need to understand how deep the NGS affects your thoughts & action. Until you do, it will be difficult to understand "how" to change. Becoming some dude who is just an overall jerk is not who you want to be. Becoming a man who lives his life according to his own standards, who doesn't worry about appeasing someone else for fear they will get angry or reject him...….is the goal. Do you have certain principles, values, morals, spiritual beliefs, integrity, self respect, etc. that guide your decisions? Bring these to the forefront during this time of reshaping and reinventing yourself as a man.

I don't want you to just use familiar sayings we pass around on the board. I want you to understand what they mean. For example, "You have been given the gift of time"; "Keep the road home paved smoothly"; "Become the best version of you"; etc. I feel that many newcomers pick up some of this as being the "language" we use, but they really just slide over it rather than apply it. Let's break some of these down, shall we?

"You have been given the gift of time". If you are not already divorced, then that means you have been given extra time, and you should not panic and feel that you must "do" something before the big D hits. This time can be used however you wish, but hopefully, it will be used to reinvent yourself and become a man that you respect. Become a man whose happiness does not depend upon his W. You know that man, right? Can you envision yourself being that man?

"Keep the road home paved smoothly". This does not mean that the LBH should become a servant to the whelms of his WW. He should not be a doormat. It does not mean he can't stand up for himself, detach, GAL, etc. It doesn't mean he has to allow the wayward spouse to manipulate him, or accept bad behavior/treatment, etc. To give an example of its real meaning would be like a LBH becoming involved in another relationship before he is divorced from his W. That could cause complications in reconciling his MR, especially if his new love interest was pregnant. See what I mean? He has made the road home very bumpy.

"Become the best version of you". If you are passive, it doesn't mean you become more passive. It means you learn how a man speaks up, steps up, and stands up. He learns how to be assertive. He learns how to be a leader.

Having goals means having a plan. Goals are not reached if you don't have a plan as to how you accomplish what you desire to have. I want to add something else along this line of thought. Before a guy can improve himself as a husband, he has to improve himself as a man Do you hear what I am saying? Don't jump over into trying to show your W what a better H you will be if only she'll just give you another chance. You won't be a better H! Why? B/c you would simply try to appease her more, and be even more afraid of making her upset at you. You must use this time to develop into a better man. If you become the man you need to be...….you'll have the foundation of a "better H".

I suggest you don't make goals about the MR at this time, b/c it's a waste of precious time. How can you work on a relationship you don't currently have? This is not the time to try to prove how much you love her and how much you've changed, when we all know that you really haven't changed anything yet. Set personal goals that do not include her. They are all about you. Make sense?

Before my previous post, you stated that you had not completed the book on NGS. You say you are working on the NGS issue. How? What are you doing? Have you written anything down that you recognize needs to change? IMHO, this is more than just a bad habit kind of thing. It is a way of thinking & interacting. You'll need to know a new way of thinking & interacting to replace the old. Currently you are getting a lot of information about a little bit of everything, so you'll need to know how to categorically separate the information. Ask yourself if this something you can do now, or practice, or store for later use. Don't get frustrated if you feel we are using 2x4's and picking you apart. It is our way of showing you a different path from the one you took. Consider yourself in the DB classroom.

There's a part of me that is waiting for an intervention from her family. Like, her mother swooping in and saying, "[burned's wife], what on earth are you thinking? Do the right thing!" But WW has convinced herself that "the right thing" is whatever makes her happy.

I don't want to sound cold with this statement, okay? I realize you are grasping at anything possibility that would offer hope. You can't hold your breath hoping that her family, or anyone else, will intervene on behalf of your M. Other people cannot save your MR. When a wife is wayward and is involved in an affair, her family and old friends don't have the positive influence they once did......b/c she won't listen. That's why she usually discards old friends and finds new ones that will support her wayward activities. Even if her family could make her feel guilty enough to return to you...…..is that how you want her? Would you want her out of feelings of shame/guilt? I am not speaking about remorse right now. I'm talking about someone shaming her into returning to the M.

I've heard LBH's arguments that if they can just get her away from the OM, then they'll have a chance to show her how much better the MR can be. (There goes that need to appease again.) It's as if the H is standing on the edge of a cliff waiting for a miracle. I can tell you, Burn, there are no miracles in making a good MR. It's very hard work. Your best chance is if you will get your eyes off the affair and her, and focus on how you are currently becoming a man who deserves a woman who wants to be with him b/c she loves him. Not for financial reasons, not b/c she has no other options, not out of shame....but one who is deeply attracted to the man he has become. Is this my way of telling you to file for D? Absolutely not. Taking your focus away from your WW and putting it where you can make a difference, is not advice for a D. I believe you and your W can reconcile, but it's going to take a lot of work,,,,,a lot of changing from both of you. If she returned today, she would still have a wayward mindset. She would not respect you, and she'd cause you more heartache. She has to go through a process, and legitimately work to change herself and to save her M.

I'm now starting to better understand the people who keep saying how difficult it is to recon after going through something like this. It's really disheartening.

What you don't have is a 1,2, 3 step that guarantees everyone will reconcile with their wayward spouse....regardless of how the spouse feels. Your W has free volition, and that is why freely loving you and receiving your love, should be so valuable. You can't force her to feel a certain way. The more she feels that you are pressuring her to be in a R that she doesn't want.....the more she will rebel against it. The more she feels you wanting to be with her, the less attracted she'll feel toward you. Waywardness is about resentment, disrespect, selfishness, control and rebellion. The only thing that will legitimately draw her back to you, is for her to believe you are not interested in her, and that you have moved on in making a life without her. She'll do a lot of temp checking, but it's not b/c she wants you. It's b/c she wants your availability. She wants to control you. It's all very selfish, to be honest. She doesn't want to be your W, but she wants to keep you emotionally attached, and she'll use manipulation to get it. The minute she sees you not being as attentive/available, she'll start temp checking. If you don't respond in your usual chatty way, she'll get mad and say something sarcastic. She thinks the world should center around her! The irony is that she wants the guy she can't have. She wants the guy who shows no interest in her. The guy who is not impressed with her. The guy who doesn't waste his time with her b.s. The guy who has no problem dumping her a$$ and walking away. Do you honestly believe she'd be attracted to some "yes dear" type of H? Not this gal. The WW respects one thing (regardless of what she may have told you). She respects the man that is stronger than her. That man who is not afraid of her negative emotions. That man who will stand up to her and put her in her place. Know what I mean? What is her place, you may ask? Well, it's not acting as if she's some royal princess! Sometimes her sense of entitlement needs an adjustment. You don't live to serve her, or make her happy. She is responsible for her own happiness, and if it comes at the expense of your dignity, then you should want no part of sharing her life. That's just my opinion. I realize you can't turn off your feelings of love as if were a faucet, but you can control how you conduct your actions. I will never tell you to stop loving her. However, you need to love from a distance....for now.

I hope you are busy GAL this weekend!

[ovrrnbw]

I've heard LBH's arguments that if they can just get her away from the OM, then they'll have a chance to show her how much better the MR can be. (There goes that need to appease again.) It's as if the H is standing on the edge of a cliff waiting for a miracle.

So true. This is why I ran off to Florida with my W. I didn't enforce my boundary, which was we can't hang out while you're still with the OM. I was awoken in the middle of the night my by W, who had been drinking, and asked to get away with her. I paused, thought for a couple seconds, and said OK. And the dominant thought I had was that this will throw a major wrench with her and the OM. And that's manipulative and weak. A strong boundary, that I had enforced before, would have been better.

Now I don't stay in the attitude of weakness, manipulation, or getting run over roughshod for the 3 weeks she was home, but I think every opportunity you have to make yourself a better man or woman, to do the right thing, for the right reasons - regardless of the potential negatives it could bring - the better relationship you will have. It doesn't mean your WAS is going to change and be the person in the relationship, but she'll learn to respect you either way.

My W keeps saying I hate her. I don't, I've been hurt by her so many times that my wall is up. It doesn't surprise me any more. Eventually she said, "Well maybe you don't hate me but I feel like you don't like me". I thought about it and said "I really don't like who you are - a liar and a cheater and backstabber. But who would?" It [censored] for anyone to hear that, and a loving spouse doesn't want to say that to their spouse. But it was true, and hard. Equally as hard is realizing that we have been a crappy spouse in many ways and that is how we got here. That's why making progress on NGS, manipulation, not being honest, fear based decision making is your best bet IMO.

[burned]

Don't get frustrated if you feel we are using 2x4's and picking you apart. It is our way of showing you a different path from the one you took. Consider yourself in the DB classroom.

Thank you. I'm grateful for all of the support and encouragement I've gotten here. And especially information to help me understand this craziness. Understanding is how I cope. But I know it's only step 1.

---

TO DO:
1. List of values
2. List of strengths
3. List of weaknesses
4. List of goals

[burned]

Good morning friends!

My question for this rainy Monday is for Sandi and other people who are helping me learn to stand up for myself. I'm trying to understand this paradox:

The WW wants to have her cake and eat it too. So she keeps me hanging on by not filing for D. Her explanation, FWIW, is "I've never done this before, I'm taking things one day at a time." Translation: no need to do all that work for now, I'm already getting what I want.

So LBH learns to stand up for himself and retake his marbles/manhood. He does this by not eating the crumbs and detaching.

Does he also do this by taking necessary steps toward D? Like, to protect himself? Himself being me.

For example: saw the D lawyer last week to get info. She doesn't know this. I did it for me. Net result: less fear of D, because it's a fairly straightforward process. And it turns it into a paperwork matter. The MR is already cold and dead.

Next step: have the house appraised. It's very unlikely she'll be able to get a mortgage if she wants to keep it. The appraisal would be FOR ME, but she WOULD know it, because the appraiser would have to go to the house.

Other things going on:
1. Moving into and setting up the new apartment this Wednesday. She has a vague sense that I am moving/moved but doesn't really have any questions about it except "what do you want from the house."
2. Scheduling various appointments to take care of my physical health. Dentist, orthopedist, dermatologist. Looking forward to the orthopedist so I can figure out what's wrong and start running again. Should have done this MONTHS ago.
3. Finding and implementing more GAL activities. I'm an Eagle Scout so I'm thinking maybe go back to that and be an adult Scout leader at the local troop. If they need one. I'll at least call and ask. Signing up for Blue Apron to learn how to cook.
4. Addressing various issues that I left on the back burner while I was "fighting for my life." Changing insurance coverage on the car, downgrading the cable plan now that I don't live in the house, etc.

It makes ME feel good to take matters into my own hands. It makes ME feel good to learn how to not fear the D. But most of this is invisible to her. Doesn't matter, really.

So the paradox I'm trying to understand: people keep drilling it into my head that HER feelings DON'T matter right now, and that MY actions SHOULDN'T be geared toward influencing her behavior. And yet I'm doing these things to show MYSELF that I can stand up for myself, but also somehow hoping that it will help HER see it? Like, I'm doing it without caring about what she thinks, and yet it DOES have an effect on her? Meaning that I'm STILL worrying about what she thinks. And yet it's something I feel I need to do for myself. Will she freak out and start to get a taste of reality? Doesn't matter in the short run; might matter in the long run. So I'm doing it FOR ME today, and it might make recon more likely someday, if that's eventually what I decide I want FOR ME later?

I guess the two ideas can coexist, and I'm doing what works. It's just all so very weird.

[hoosjim]

FWIW, I think Sandi nailed the exact mindset you need to have right now. Do things for you. The possibility that your MR may someday reconcile should not even be on your mind now.

Everything you listed doing above is, i think, perfectly normal... even ideal! Seeing a lawyer to find out what your rights, options, and risks are is a great move, although, like Sandi, i don't think you need to file "D" yourself right now. That opens up a whole can of worms, obviously, and i am not convinced you would be doing it other than to "make an impression" on your W. Consulting with the lawyer to get info is, however, IMO, a perfect example of taking care of yourself. If she wants to file? Fine, you'll have all the info you need and you'll be a step ahead. Otherwise keep moving with your GALs.

[neffer]

Knowledge gives you power B. You´ve got the info. Let W do the D movements. It gives you time. Use it.

Detach and GAL

[MoveFrwd]

The WW wants to have her cake and eat it too. So she keeps me hanging on by not filing for D. Her explanation, FWIW, is "I've never done this before, I'm taking things one day at a time." Translation: no need to do all that work for now, I'm already getting what I want.

So LBH learns to stand up for himself and retake his marbles/manhood. He does this by not eating the crumbs and detaching.

So would filing for D be your way of 'sanding up' for yourself? What would actually be different for you if you followed down that path? Are you still paying for her things that you wouldnt be after D? If so, then maybe theres an alternative financial separation you could do?

Next step: have the house appraised. It's very unlikely she'll be able to get a mortgage if she wants to keep it. The appraisal would be FOR ME, but she WOULD know it, because the appraiser would have to go to the house.

Why do you need the house appraised? If you are going to sell it, the real estate agent would coordinate that. If youre just trying to gauge value for your own knowledge, then how accurate do you really need - can you check with Zillow or something to estimate? I imagine youd be paying $500 for something any bank would re-require anyway.

As an example, for my divorce, my ex had the house appraised for the divorce settlement. Since I was keeping it, I needed to refinance the house to take her name off of it. And the bank required a second appraisal less than 2 months apart.

1. Moving into and setting up the new apartment this Wednesday. She has a vague sense that I am moving/moved but doesn't really have any questions about it except "what do you want from the house."

You said you were getting a list together. Have you?

2. Scheduling various appointments to take care of my physical health. Dentist, orthopedist, dermatologist. Looking forward to the orthopedist so I can figure out what's wrong and start running again. Should have done this MONTHS ago.

Awesome!

3. Finding and implementing more GAL activities. I'm an Eagle Scout so I'm thinking maybe go back to that and be an adult Scout leader at the local troop. If they need one. I'll at least call and ask. Signing up for Blue Apron to learn how to cook.

Awesome. You might also want to check to see if there are any adult clubs or things for hiking or camping or whatever.

4. Addressing various issues that I left on the back burner while I was "fighting for my life." Changing insurance coverage on the car, downgrading the cable plan now that I don't live in the house, etc.

Can you be instead focusing on setting up what you want. So take her name off of joint things (like insurance/phone/etc) or taking your name off things for her (like the cable at the house where you arent living).

So the paradox I'm trying to understand: people keep drilling it into my head that HER feelings DON'T matter right now, and that MY actions SHOULDN'T be geared toward influencing her behavior. And yet I'm doing these things to show MYSELF that I can stand up for myself, but also somehow hoping that it will help HER see it?

Maybe try to think about it this way. Lets take a simple example of getting a haircut. If you get a haircut to try to attract her back, then it comes off as pursuit. She knows you are trying to do something she likes to appease her. And probably a few times later after seeing no change from her, you will change it back. But maybe you get a haircut you want. It shows change and independence. It shows that you care about your appearance. And those things are attractive.

If you make improvements to yourself as person, it increases your attractiveness. And it might make her realize what a fool she is. Or it might not. Who knows. But if you apply temporary bandaids to try to make her happy, then you will always fail, because you didnt actually change anything.

Your actions should geared toward being the best man you can be. Making those changes might influence her behavior. Either way, you will come out ahead. Make sense?

[burned]

Bit by bit, thanks to the patient advice here, I'm adapting. She is gone. She could be dating someone and that person could even have moved into the house. It doesn't matter. I don't want to care. I'm doing things for me, since that's all I can do. She can file for D if she wants but in the meantime I'm basically just ignoring the fact that we're M on paper.

---

The WW wants to have her cake and eat it too. So she keeps me hanging on by not filing for D. Her explanation, FWIW, is "I've never done this before, I'm taking things one day at a time." Translation: no need to do all that work for now, I'm already getting what I want.

So LBH learns to stand up for himself and retake his marbles/manhood. He does this by not eating the crumbs and detaching.

So would filing for D be your way of 'standing up' for yourself? What would actually be different for you if you followed down that path? Are you still paying for her things that you wouldnt be after D? If so, then maybe theres an alternative financial separation you could do?

Jim's right, filing would be just to make a point. Here and there in Sandi's threads there are mentions about "Well if you're already S and there really aren't any boundaries to set, then D might be the only option." Sorry, just paraphrasing so I may have it wrong. So I got it into my head that it's the final after-after-LRT, the final "Here's what you asked for, go in peace." I don't think that's correct. And it's a relief to not have to do it YET. I wish I could somehow find peace with that notion.

As for WHAT I WANT, no. I do not want that. Sure, part of it is dependency. That's my issue to work on. But I DO have values that are important to me: loyalty, commitment, keeping my promises. I can't control what she does, but I can hold up my side, until the bitter end.

I do worry that in her mind it's either-or. Wouldn't it be a kind of pursuit or "not letting go" if I went to her and said, hey instead of D let's do a legal separation? Kind of like leaving half of my junk in the house, literally and metaphorically.

Next step: have the house appraised. It's very unlikely she'll be able to get a mortgage if she wants to keep it. The appraisal would be FOR ME, but she WOULD know it, because the appraiser would have to go to the house.

Why do you need the house appraised? If you are going to sell it, the real estate agent would coordinate that. If youre just trying to gauge value for your own knowledge, then how accurate do you really need - can you check with Zillow or something to estimate? I imagine youd be paying $500 for something any bank would re-require anyway.

As an example, for my divorce, my ex had the house appraised for the divorce settlement. Since I was keeping it, I needed to refinance the house to take her name off of it. And the bank required a second appraisal less than 2 months apart.

Caught me red-handed. It would be so that she knows I'm making movements in that direction. Pursuit! Won't work. The estimate I can get from Zillow is probably fine. Saves me $500.

1. Moving into and setting up the new apartment this Wednesday. She has a vague sense that I am moving/moved but doesn't really have any questions about it except "what do you want from the house."

You said you were getting a list together. Have you?

Not yet. I'm thinking of just going there and taking what I want. Waiting for a day that she isn't there and I have time.

3. Finding and implementing more GAL activities. I'm an Eagle Scout so I'm thinking maybe go back to that and be an adult Scout leader at the local troop. If they need one. I'll at least call and ask. Signing up for Blue Apron to learn how to cook.

Awesome. You might also want to check to see if there are any adult clubs or things for hiking or camping or whatever.

Gonna hit up Meetup after work and see what kinds of things are out there.

4. Addressing various issues that I left on the back burner while I was "fighting for my life." Changing insurance coverage on the car, downgrading the cable plan now that I don't live in the house, etc.

Can you be instead focusing on setting up what you want. So take her name off of joint things (like insurance/phone/etc) or taking your name off things for her (like the cable at the house where you arent living).

This is a good idea. I'll get to work on it. The roadblock will be that I will need her to add her new card number to pay for things (Cable, Netflix, etc.). So I will have to contact her. But I'm trying to be almost entirely dark. So I might sit on that for a bit.

I'm tempted to just send her a list of the things she needs to sign into and change the payment method to her new card. "We agreed that I would pay the mortgage while you would pay the bills. Change the following things, and let me know when it's done." And I was about to ask if that comes across as rude...but that's not a question I even need to ask because I'm learning here.