...twice shy...

[hoosjim]

This is a good idea. I'll get to work on it. The roadblock will be that I will need her to add her new card number to pay for things (Cable, Netflix, etc.). So I will have to contact her. But I'm trying to be almost entirely dark. So I might sit on that for a bit.

I'm tempted to just send her a list of the things she needs to sign into and change the payment method to her new card. "We agreed that I would pay the mortgage while you would pay the bills. Change the following things, and let me know when it's done." And I was about to ask if that comes across as rude...but that's not a question I even need to ask because I'm learning here.

Forgive me because i am sure this was somewhere earlier in one of your threads, but i either missed or forgot it: Why would you not just cancel the accounts that are in your name and for the house you no longer live in? WIth appropriate notice, of course. Maybe a text: "W, I am going to schedule the accounts/services in my name to end on ______________. You'll probably want to call them before that so you can arrange to have service continued." This puts the burden on her... if she wants to be on her own, then this is part of it. The mortgage is obviously more sticky for a number of reasons, many of them legal, but for the services, i don't see any need contact her "with a list" and then wait for her to act. Take the initiative! You are no longer using those services, and it sounds like you two have agreed she is to pay them, so just schedule their end (At least insofar as they are in your name) and then let her know.

Maybe others will think this is a bit abrupt, IDK, but it seems to me such a course of action would be 1) Strong 2) Independent (you're not waiting around for her to make arrangements, and also disentangles you from those bills and services-- you are going to have your own in your apartment soon enough) and 3) Detached-- let her solve her own utility/CATV issues.

[burned]

This is a good idea. I suspect it's a VERY good idea because it makes me feel queasy. Meaning it's counterintuitive and doesn't feel right and is different from my usual NG style.

The NG is screaming, This will come across as heavy-handed, she will act frustrated and annoyed that she has to take time out of her busy schedule to deal with mundane issues like this that I usually handled cheerfully and without bother, It will further solidify her "I can make it on my own!" mentality, thereby reducing the chance of R, blah blah blah. She will go to whichever family members still talk to her and say, "Poor me, look what mean ol' H did!"

But I'm not paying attention to R at all, I guess.

It is definitely an action that makes a strong statement.

[MoveFrwd]

Here and there in Sandi's threads there are mentions about "Well if you're already S and there really aren't any boundaries to set, then D might be the only option."

I would say that is in cases where you need the divorce to legally enforce your boundaries. If she wont sell the house and you cant live. If your access to children is being withheld. If she is spending all of your money. Things like this where there is a legal reason to seek D, then, sure, have at it ASAP. Otherwise, take your time and decide when it is right for you - its not something you want to use a threat or for leverage or as a test...

I do worry that in her mind it's either-or. Wouldn't it be a kind of pursuit or "not letting go" if I went to her and said, hey instead of D let's do a legal separation? Kind of like leaving half of my junk in the house, literally and metaphorically.

How does that matter. Are you not letting go? Id say it's standing up for whats important to you. I think it is perfectly reasonable to take a stance of "I do not see divorce as the solution to our problems, but I love and respect you enough to move forward with it if that is your choice." If that was your stance, then why would you file?

Not yet. I'm thinking of just going there and taking what I want. Waiting for a day that she isn't there and I have time.

I wouldnt just barge in randomly. Remember, youve moved out, so while you have a legal right to go there, I would think she would have the right to go in to your apartment and take things right back. I would say if you expect privacy from her, then grant her the same.

. "We agreed that I would pay the mortgage while you would pay the bills. Change the following things, and let me know when it's done." And I was about to ask if that comes across as rude...but that's not a question I even need to ask because I'm learning here.

I dont think it's rude. You just need to figure out the details. For example, Im not sure she can simply call your cable provider and take your name off of it. You may need to coordinate or something. Either way, get a plan together and share it with her as necessary. [EDIT TO ADD] I think the post from Jim said this more eloquently than I did. You do what you need to do....then let her figure out the rest. In the meantime ---- is she paying you for the time since youve moved out?

[hoosjim]

It is definitely an action that makes a strong statement.

I thought of posting that very, thing, too... but i didn't. Here's why:

You're done with her, you're done with that house, you're done with the utes and services for that house. You're moving on, to your own space. What's more, you've already told her (or agreed, whatever) that she was going to be paying those things. So do it, and get on with your awesome existence. Anything else with this is just (IMO) clinging onto some excuse/reason to contact or be in touch with her.

That it makes a "Statement" is true... but secondary for what it does for YOU.

[burned]

OK. Doing it for me. It's part of letting go. Gotta do it despite the fear.

I didn't think of asking her to pay me for the utilities/services since I moved out. It's not something we agreed on at the time, so it doesn't seem quite right. Pros/cons?

[MoveFrwd]

OK. Doing it for me. It's part of letting go. Gotta do it despite the fear.

I didn't think of asking her to pay me for the utilities/services since I moved out. It's not something we agreed on at the time, so it doesn't seem quite right. Pros/cons?

When did you agree on it? When are you getting the bills changed? Id say if it's only a couple weeks, then I wouldnt worry about it (unless you really need that money). If it's several months....what are your reservations for not bringing it up?

[sandi2]

My question for this rainy Monday is for Sandi and other people who are helping me learn to stand up for myself. I'm trying to understand this paradox:

Okay, but first remind me of something. You are physically separated, right? This is not an "in-house" separation.

So LBH learns to stand up for himself and retake his marbles/manhood. He does this by not eating the crumbs and detaching.

Does he also do this by taking necessary steps toward D? Like, to protect himself? Himself being me.

First of all, I see "standing up for yourself" in more of a verbal situation. When someone is trying to verbally dominate you, beat you down, tear you apart emotionally, force you to submit, etc. Standing up for yourself means that you stop succumbing to her bullying techniques. Bullies play off the emotional weakness of their prey. When she is convinced that you don't fear her emotions or the outcome of her actions......she loses her power of intimidation. You have given her the power over your fear. She knows you very well, and she knows how to push your buttons to get what she wants. She knows you are a "nice guy" and how to play off it to control you.

Should you protect yourself? Absolutely! But I want you to understand something about filing for D. Don't do it as a way to prove something to her. Don't do it just b/c she has done nothing to get it going. If you want a D, then go for it. If you don't, then table it. If getting a D is the only way you can financially protect yourself...…..then do what you think is best. My point here is don't file for D as a way of getting one up on her.

You have to let go of your fear, or you will experience the same results in future relationships. I suggest you research how to stand up to bullies. Whether you work with one, are friends with one, or married to one...…..you cannot ignore or submit to their bullying methods. You have to call their hand on it. In other words, address it. It calls for you to show courage in the face of bullying. You have to show the bully you are not intimidated, and you may have to get nose to nose with the bully. Know what I mean? I'm not encouraging physical violence here, but sometimes, you have to get in their personal space to get their undivided attention and to see they can't scare you. You can't be a sissy and expect a bully to back down. I think some WW's see their nice guy LBH as a mouse, b/c he's never shown the courage and strength to defy her. IMHO, standing up to a bully requires an immediate reaction.....but maybe I am looking at a different type of scenario.

When a female is verbally beating down a male, I believe one of the most effective tools is an authoritative voice. Don't be afraid to use it, but at the same time....know when to use it in order to gain control of the situation where she is verbally disrespecting you. Stand up, and stand tall. Don't look away. Look her in the eyes. Show no fear, and don't run from it. The problem some nice guys have, is wanting to ignore it or have a talk. Whenever a person runs at you with a knife, you don't try to discuss the issue. A woman can verbally slice you apart, if you just stand there and take it.

So the paradox I'm trying to understand: people keep drilling it into my head that HER feelings DON'T matter right now, and that MY actions SHOULDN'T be geared toward influencing her behavior. And yet I'm doing these things to show MYSELF that I can stand up for myself, but also somehow hoping that it will help HER see it?

I suppose it's however the individual sees it. IMHO, you have taken steps to care of yourself. You are acting as a capable individual, rather than a dependent. You are seeing to your physical welfare. You are taking steps that will protect you. You are not depending upon your W to do some action that will determine your welfare in the future or the present. Is this a sign you are standing up to her? No, I don't see it that way. Standing up to someone is defying their personal onslaught of disrespect, intimidation, manipulative behavior, etc. It means you stand your ground...... you don't back down or walk away in fear. You face them dead on, and show them they cannot intimidate you or disrespect you. In some cases, it may call for an indirect action, to show you aren't going to do whatever the bully demanded. However, I think it is usually personal.....a one on one situation. Make sense?

And yet I'm doing these things to show MYSELF that I can stand up for myself, but also somehow hoping that it will help HER see it? Like, I'm doing it without caring about what she thinks, and yet it DOES have an effect on her? Meaning that I'm STILL worrying about what she thinks. And yet it's something I feel I need to do for myself. Will she freak out and start to get a taste of reality? Doesn't matter in the short run; might matter in the long run. So I'm doing it FOR ME today, and it might make recon more likely someday, if that's eventually what I decide I want FOR ME later?

I don't see this as standing up for yourself.....in the sense we speak of facing the bully. I see it as taking care of yourself. Perhaps "standing up for yourself" or "standing up to her" is lost in how one mentally defines it. I wish I could define it on paper much better. I see it as how you address the bully. Again, I see your actions showing you strong and capable of making independent decisions. Taking care of yourself is not quite like standing up to her face to face when she is bullying you. That's not to say you haven't made wise choices, I just think these are actions to take care of yourself.

This is just my opinion, and I hope I have not confused you. Carry on with the good work.

[hoosjim]

1) Call the service providers and tell them you are moving to a new address and want to switch your service and your billing to the new address and discontinue service at the old address (as you will no longer be living there.)

2) Send W a text, and/or email: "W, I'll be moving into my own place on _________ . I have told the utility and CATV providers that my address and service location will be changing effective that date. You'll probably want to call them before that so you can arrange to have services for yourself continued at the house after that date."

3) Relax and let the providers do the rest of the work.

FWIW this is a smaller scale and somewhat softer version of Doodler's (a sometimes poster here) "Two Step Plan":

1) Boot her out.

2) Get on with your life.

(Hee hee...)

[burned]

I'm listening, I'm listening. Lots to chew on.

Sandi: Yes, physically separated for 3 months now. But I think "standing up for myself" isn't the right term. Taking care of myself, being strong and independent, letting go. That's what I'm doing. I really haven't had to "stand up for myself" in the way that you describe it.

Other people following my sitch may disagree but I don't really feel that W has done anything overtly malicious. Her "manipulation" if you can call it that, is to keep me feeling like she's such a nice person. For example, leaving my coat on the porch so I could pick it up, because I didn't think of asking her for it -- in other words, it's basically her saying,. "My H, who I don't respect because he can't take care of himself, needs me to tell him when to wear a coat, because he never thinks ahead, he's always been like that!! She sends a once-a-week temp check, "Hey, hope you're OK" or something like that. NGS prevents me from seeing that for what it is. Is it manipulative? I think that's too strong a word, but I've had to change a lot of my thinking lately. My parents are of the mindset that she's playing the victim role and doing everything she can to make it seem like she's such a very nice person and being SO kind about the nice gentle way she betrayed me (sarcasm there, obviously). I don't know. In the last month I've seen her in person ONCE and you could fit all of our text messages onto a sheet of 8x11 paper. And no phone calls. So I really have no clue whatsoever.

(On that note, that's where the cold feeling comes from. I really have no way of knowing, and I know it doesn't matter. But I wish I knew if she ever thought about me, aside from a logistical viewpoint. Oh well.)

So, I haven't had to stand up to her in the sense that Sandi describes, I've just had to look out for myself. It all comes down to being stuck focusing on her and not me. Still evaluating my actions based on "maybe THIS will show her" and I know that's just a useless way to think. (I re-read all of Sandi's WW threads over the weekend!)

Ah, it's all confusing. I think I agree with what Sandi said the other day, and just now. The manipulation comes down to the fact that she knows I fear her, or she knows that I usually take the bait when she says something kind. OK, well, as of last week I'm not responding to that stuff anymore. If anything it has helped me detach more. But it has also made this a whole lot more real, and that's where the fear seems to intensify. And since I have no idea what she's doing, what her mood is, what her facial expression is, what her plans are, what her goals are, I'm just operating under the assumption (as I should have started doing a while ago) that she is just a typical WW. She certainly was one, from June to the end of August. Since the beginning of September, when things started getting quiet and cold, now she just feels like a woman who has nothing left to give and just wants to be left alone.

Like, seriously, I get one temp check a week now. The darker I go, the darker she goes. It's like a game of chicken. She sees me pulling away, she uses that to justify her pulling away. Or something. I don't envision any particular reason for us to see each other in person unless she initiates, which it doesn't seem like she will. I'm almost jealous of the people who get the full frontal assault. At least then I'd have something to work with. I just got to DB a couple months too late, and wasn't treating W like WW soon enough. Oh well.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SHE THINKS, I'M DOING THIS FOR ME. Maybe I just have to keep repeating that until I start believing it. Not like everyone else hasn't been saying that 8 times a day.

Why did I write any of this? Journaling maybe. Seeing what the opinions are. NGS.

---

Jim: the fun thing about my new place is that it's "all included" so I don't actually have to establish accounts with any utilities. So I will probably have to do some coordinating with W to get the accounts changed. She will have to get her own car insurance. Health insurance is something I am going to be much more cautious about (lawyer, probably).

I suppose I could call the various companies and just tell them what I want to do and see what they say.

[burned]

OK. Doing it for me. It's part of letting go. Gotta do it despite the fear.

I didn't think of asking her to pay me for the utilities/services since I moved out. It's not something we agreed on at the time, so it doesn't seem quite right. Pros/cons?

When did you agree on it? When are you getting the bills changed? Id say if it's only a couple weeks, then I wouldnt worry about it (unless you really need that money). If it's several months....what are your reservations for not bringing it up?

Agreed on it a couple weeks ago, so it doesn't seem right to backdate it to June. Don't need the money. I could easily pay all of the bills for both of us, which is why I haven't been in a hurry to make any of these changes. Doing it now for the sake of letting go.

Likewise, I don't want D but that's emotional. So I don't really have to do anything to protect myself financially. I WILL have to start telling people to stop talking to me about "the divorce" and stop giving me advice about, "So when the divorce is done..." And yet I also don't have the b@lls to tell them that I'm still fighting for this M, in a sense.

Anyway, from a financial standpoint it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. I don't know how clearly she understands the financial picture, but she never liked that I handled all of that myself. She could easily argue that I try to control her with money. I never did. But I've appeased her by always reminding her that this isn't about money and she will be FINE financially no matter what happens.