...twice shy...

[burned]

Thank you to everyone who has put up with my whining today. Every time I make a move, things get more real, and the denial starts to lift, and the feelings start to happen.

She sends a once-a-week temp check, "Hey, hope you're OK" or something like that.

This is the WW's way of keeping the LBH emotionally attached. I realize it may make no sense to your logical mind, but it happens in most of the cases with WW's.

I get it, and I've seen lots of other people get some serious temp checks. Funny, in my hectic mind it almost seems like things would be better if I were getting MORE of them. But she doesn't have to temp check, she knows me, she sees me figuring out all the drama about separating belongings, changing accounts, etc. So she knows she still has me. I guess my fear is that forcing all of this "prep work" for D will just make her want D even more, like it's a done deal. Not in my control I guess.

I can certainly say that the time between BD1 and BD2 was the sweet spot during which I SHOULD have worked on growth and instead worked on trying to convince W not to leave so that THEN I could work on growth, WITH her by my side.

Sorry, should have been more clear with that quote. What I did was pursuit/pressure/clinging because I thought it would make any difference at all. In other words, I was TRYING to convince her to stay when I know now that I shouldn't have been. I learned that lesson afterwards.

In cases that have WW's, I think it might be easier when the H has alone time to grow. B/c when he is living in that environment of the protesting WW, he is too distracted by her moods, words, behavior, personal interaction, etc. I hope you can take advantage of living single, now, and doing all the things you might not be able to do if you had to consider the other spouse. Plus, really get serious about that NGS and what to do about it.

Yes, I see this now. And I agree with Hoosjim and everyone else here and the various self-help books that say that the alone time is really the best time for personal growth. In fact there's one book that talks about how the WAS ends up not changing very much, while the LBS starts feeling spectacular. I'm looking forward to the day I feel spectacular.

On a similar note, the other day I was talking to my mother about how 60% of second marriages end in D also. Without skipping a beat, she says, "Yup, that's the 60% of second marriages for people like your W. You'll be in the other 40% because you will have learned."

And I know it doesn't matter, but in the name of learning/growth, I'd like to understand how this would make her respect me. Just that I'm standing up for myself and biting the bullet. Being a leader rather than a follower. But I don't think it will make her worry at all. But I had to do it anyway. Wonder if I'll get a temp check after this. I doubt it. I'm acting as if I don't care either way.

How do you mean it wouldn't make her worry? Worry about what?

As for the rest of that quote, I can assure you that standing up for yourself, taking care of your own needs, dropping the emotional rope you have tied to her, having leadership skills, etc...…..are qualities that women admire in men. Anything that represents clinginess (leaving your belongings in her house, for example) is unattractive to a woman.....especially a WW. The WW respects one thing, and one thing only......strength. She wants a man who is stronger than she is. That means he can operate independently from her. He doesn't "need" her in order to grow and go forward with his life. It's her loss if she choses to give him up. It just puts him back on the market for some good woman to have.

This is where I get stuck, as we all know. Thinking about how it would affect her. Thinking that she will see me pulling away and start to worry that I am the one dumping her, like you said a few days ago. It's not WHY I'm doing it but my achy little heart wants so badly to think that something will change in a reasonable time frame. I know it won't. So I'm trying to change my expectations. See below.

It's going to take time for her to go through the process of facing the outcome of what she's done, and feeling remorseful, etc. It will probably take quite a while before she's at that point of wanting to reconcile, but you never know. The two of you may get back together, or you may have moved on and don't want her by then. Life has a funny way of surprising us.

Will be interesting to see what it's like when either of us reaches that point. From where I'm standing, I see her moving on long before I do. But that's sort of what people keep saying here and in real life, that it's not really "moving on" when WW goes to the next guy and reenacts essentially the same R with him that she had with me.

Currently, you are grieving over the loss of your W. It's natural to feel sad. At some point, I think you will feel anger. That's natural, too. Here's the thing...….you are valuable. You cannot base your value on her. I'm so glad to hear that you are reading NMMNG. Stick with it. I have seen NG's get their b@lls back. You can too!

Looking forward to recapturing those. And I know about the anger. Sometimes I hope it'll come back, I've found it to be helpful. Currently I'm jumping back and forth between depression and acceptance.

[burned]

Ughhhhh she is crafty.

Told her she needs to take over the utilities. All together, it's around $500 per month (mainly due to oil heat and crazy expensive water/sewer). She says, "What do you think would be reasonable in terms of helping me pay for those? Seeing as I won't be asking for half of the assets in the D."

It's almost like she's pushing back after I pushed a little. Is that to be expected?

Anyway, if I say nothing, she doesn't have to do anything. I keep paying by default.

NGS is preventing me from getting into that same argument in which she says, "Well, I supported you when you were in school." I SO want to say, "Yup, you did, and I was faithful the entire time." Not going there, of course.

What I really want to say is, "I don't find it reasonable to pay anything for utilities that I don't use." But I'm not sure if I can say that from a legal standpoint.

Aside from NOT asking a bunch of strangers on the internet what to do...how would a strong, independent man handle this? Especially while trying to stay dark?

I could say, "I will continue to pay the utilities until D is finalized, but I will keep track of how much has been paid since S and we will factor that into the final property division agreement." Maybe?

In the grand scheme of things, this is minor cake eating and doesn't seem like a battle worth fighting.

[MoveFrwd]

I could say, "I will continue to pay the utilities until D is finalized, but I will keep track of how much has been paid since S and we will factor that into the final property division agreement." Maybe?

I mean...all of your money is still split 50/50 since you are married? I think maybe it makes sense to agree on a financial plan between now and then.

Frankly, I dont think it's a matter of the money, right? It's about having her be in charge of the activity and you not worrying about it. Until you have something finalized, it doesnt really matter who pays for what because it's all split anyway. But why should you have to be the one to log in and pay the bills for that place? Why should she have to contact you if she wants to change providers or services or whatever?

[burned]

Frankly, I dont think it's a matter of the money, right? It's about having her be in charge of the activity and you not worrying about it. Until you have something finalized, it doesnt really matter who pays for what because it's all split anyway. But why should you have to be the one to log in and pay the bills for that place? Why should she have to contact you if she wants to change providers or services or whatever?

Good point. Although it's all on auto-pay. It costs me nothing in terms of effort.

(So why did you do it, burned? Tried to act tough and she called your bluff, again.)

[MoveFrwd]

Frankly, I dont think it's a matter of the money, right? It's about having her be in charge of the activity and you not worrying about it. Until you have something finalized, it doesnt really matter who pays for what because it's all split anyway. But why should you have to be the one to log in and pay the bills for that place? Why should she have to contact you if she wants to change providers or services or whatever?

Good point. Although it's all on auto-pay. It costs me nothing in terms of effort.

(So why did you do it, burned? Tried to act tough and she called your bluff, again.)

I dont really understand. I thought your deal was that you would pay the mortgage and she would pay utilities? No?

Either way, you should not be in charge of the utilities at the place where you dont live. Get your name off of them and let her be in charge of the negotiations and the log ins and such. If you want to work out something separate for the payments, then fine. If theres a joint CC or bank account or whatever. Or if you agree to pay her money monthly. Its a business transaction - not anything with any personal impact related to it.

[hoosjim]

Sandi:

Why? B/c he was only doing them as a means to convince his W that things would be better if she gave it another chance. In cases that have WW's, I think it might be easier when the H has alone time to grow. B/c when he is living in that environment of the protesting WW, he is too distracted by her moods, words, behavior, personal interaction, etc. I hope you can take advantage of living single, now, and doing all the things you might not be able to do if you had to consider the other spouse. Plus, really get serious about that NGS and what to do about it.

This is kinda related to what i was trying to say in my previous post, though maybe i did not explain it well. I do not think that my own personal changes were "only as a means to convince my W that things would be better", but the other dynamic certainly applies... she was in-house with me the entire time, and that certainly had an affect, even at my most stalwart and independent, on my own growth and GAL (even as i think i did a pretty bang up job of the 180s and GAL). The other dynamic i alluded to i think does come into play, though. It is a constant struggle... maybe struggle is too hard of a word, lets say temptation(?)... to not slip back into old habits. I mean, hey, "things are back to the way they were" right?

I have too much self respect and like myself too much as a person, now, to ever go back to being the person i was before (at least i think, and i do pray every day for the Good Lord to keep me on a path of growth and personal "joy"), but, I do believe in ANY relationship, one must constantly be on guard against complacency and against taking the other person for granted. Avoiding that, and keeping the relationship growing, i am finding, takes deliberate effort and intentionality. It's worth it, but it is not always "easy."

[hoosjim]

In fact there's one book that talks about how the WAS ends up not changing very much, while the LBS starts feeling spectacular. I'm looking forward to the day I feel spectacular.

Will be interesting to see what it's like when either of us reaches that point. From where I'm standing, I see her moving on long before I do. But that's sort of what people keep saying here and in real life, that it's not really "moving on" when WW goes to the next guy and reenacts essentially the same R with him that she had with me.

This is me being "overanalytical",which, trust me, is a lot less of a drag when you are not doing it in your own sitch and... maybe the insights will help someone else.

Anyhoo, both of these statements basically speak to the same thing, and i think it is absolutely true. When you free yourself... that is, detach, from your WW, your MR, and all that baggage, it DOES free you to grow. Meanwhile, your WW wallows in her rebelliousness and disrespect and bitterness towards you, potentially moving from OM to OM to OM, with nothing ever really "changing" for her and no real "growth" recurring. (In fact, what she's really doing is regressing to a more immature state.) I saw this firsthand with my friend who mastered the GAL/detachment part of DB-ing but flunked the direct interaction part. I remember him relating to me a convo he had with his W, back before it became clear that she herself was actually cheating and was, in fact, a "WW". The convo occurred not long after they had physically separated (this was one of his mistakes, having frequent MR convos with his still-wayward wife) and he told her he really thought this period was doing wonders for him personally and that he was continually amazed how much room he had to grow as a person and how much he was growing. (And absolutely true, btw... dude was a 180 and GAL Poster Boy). To which his W responded: "Well i don't think that's true at all.. i don't feel like i have grown at all." Also absolutely true. And, also absolutely true at that point (though we were not to discover for a few weeks yet) that she was actively engaged in the second of two affairs within the past year. And she continues to this day-- her FB posts vapidly going on and on about "seeking happiness" as a goal in and of itself.. in the sense that her significant other, her friends, and her world somehow owe that to her, and how "Everything is awesome" even as i (having access to her still prolly best friend, my wife) know that truthfully it is not... but she chooses to ignore the pain and turmoil in her kids' and others lives for the moment.

But i digress. Yes... with a WW your best and quickest route to personal growth and self improvement likely lies through some period of (in your case continued) physical separation.

And, yes, i completely understand that that's not the way my own sitch played out... but my own sitch and that of my friend as well as what i have read on these forums have convinced me of it's truth as a generality.

[hoosjim]

Told her she needs to take over the utilities. All together, it's around $500 per month...

In the grand scheme of things, this is minor cake eating and doesn't seem like a battle worth fighting.

$500 a month not a battle worth fighting? Dude, i want to live in your world. (And i am an attorney, remember.)

Look, your inclination here:

What I really want to say is, "I don't find it reasonable to pay anything for utilities that I don't use." But I'm not sure if I can say that from a legal standpoint.

... is completely defensible... at least from a GAL/180/kick-her-cheating-a$$-to-the-curb DB-ing standpoint. Not sure what the legalities are where you live, however. Jointly owned house? Both on the mortgage? Didn't you ask your lawyer you consulted about this? I mean, until there is a D decree or order you don't have to pay squat.... you don't live there, after all.

I suppose you would be well within your rights to say "Look, you wanted this split... I am moving on with my life, starting by living and paying utilities elsewhere. If you want to keep living there in that big house by yourself, you would probably be well served to find a way to pay the utilities that go along with it." (I of course would say this after i had retrieved my belongings from said house.)

There's probably a more diplomatic or even zen/dominant-male-figure way to say it but, then again, i am not aware of the legal ramifications, if any, in your jurisdiction. (And, fwiw, i studiously avoided taking any DR classes in law school out of a desire to have nothing to do with that process after watching my own folks split during my undergrad years, so my divorce law knowledge is pretty much limited to what i learned from my buddy while he was navigating his.)

At any rate, the idea of paying utilities, or in fact any support costs, for a cheating WW who is still living in my house (you realize you are effectively subsidizing her cheating, right?) just really galls to the point of puking this fairly recently turned Dominant Male.

Like to hear the others chime in on this... dont' respond to her too quickly without doing some research, getting some of the others' thoughts, and having a plan... including how you will respond to various eventualities and responses from her.

[burned]

This is me being "overanalytical",which, trust me, is a lot less of a drag when you are not doing it in your own sitch and... maybe the insights will help someone else.

Anyhoo, both of these statements basically speak to the same thing, and i think it is absolutely true. When you free yourself... that is, detach, from your WW, your MR, and all that baggage, it DOES free you to grow. Meanwhile, your WW wallows in her rebelliousness and disrespect and bitterness towards you, potentially moving from OM to OM to OM, with nothing ever really "changing" for her and no real "growth" recurring. (In fact, what she's really doing is regressing to a more immature state.) I saw this firsthand with my friend who mastered the GAL/detachment part of DB-ing but flunked the direct interaction part. ... But i digress. Yes... with a WW your best and quickest route to personal growth and self improvement likely lies through some period of (in your case continued) physical separation.

Overanalytical is my middle name. I'm thought I was here for the DB skills but Steve can tell you how long I disobeyed them, so maybe it's that I really enjoy the thinking/talking. My job is all about talking and thinking, and statistics. So it appeals to me.

Yep. I've heard all the mumbo-jumbo about "finding myself" and "learning to trust my feelings" and "I feel so liberated living alone." I wish I didn't buy into it quite as much as I do. I'm trying to remind myself that it's garbage. I try to take people at their word. Next time I see one of my friends' Ws posting stupid trite sayings on FB about rebirth and self-empowerment, I'll reach out to them and offer support they didn't know they needed.

But I'm really botching it on the direct interaction part. Literally everything I say, she turns it around and uses it against me.

And I just realized something. Going dark IS FOR ME. I find myself wishing I didn't have to talk to her for any reason, AT ALL. I never feel better afterwards. Scrw the furniture and the "measly" $500 a month. It is a lot, but the final property division will have way more zeros than that. Including the biggest zero: her.

The anger. Sandi, she's always right.

[Davide]

Just another perspective: I moved out for 4 months before moving back into my house (W left when I came back). The first two months we didn't have any financial arrangements. Once we set up the financial arrangements (getting separate checking accounts, etc...) we agreed to take the mortgage out of our joint account since it is in both our names - now that I have been back for two months it continues to come out of the joint account.

However, everything else (cable, water, heat, electricity) we agreed that the person living in the house would pay for. When I got back into town and we met for the first time, I asked her to write me a check for the money she owed. It surprised her, but she did it. I didn't demand it in a hostile way, but I didn't shy away from calling her out on what she owed.

Why should you pay for her utilities? Be assertive.