...twice shy...

[Twofeet]

Burned,

Going off of what hoosjim said, why the hell would you move out. Kick her out she is the cheater. I kicked my W out of the MBR and really tried to force her out the house till she threw legalities in my face. Stop paying for her school, her fun, etc. Pull your name off the utilities, stop paying them. Pay your half of the mortgage if you have to, or move back in and tell her to get bent.

My W have used the "I need to find myself" line as well. I can't begin to tell you what it means, she told her parents the same thing and in all there wisdom even they don't understand what it means.

[burned]

Moved out long before I had heard of DB. Trying to appease WW. She was back with OM in no time flat. That ship has sailed.

Honestly I just want to close my eyes and hide for a month or two. But! That’s what I used to do when there was a problem. That’s burned 1.0 stuff. Personal growth! Now I have to grab the bull by the horns.

Today I just don’t feel like I have a lot left in me.

Anger —> depression. When will I finally hit acceptance?

[hoosjim]

"I need to find myself" or "I need space" is nearly always WW code for "I need to be away from you so i can more freely skrunk with OM"

(Sorry, burned.)

[burned]

Haha never seen the word skrunk, I like it.

Tonight is all about the coldness. I’m reading a book about coping w/ D (I don’t think I can say the name of it here), for the 3rd time. It’s different every time. It’s just getting more and more real. We’re apparently past all the lies and trumped-up reasons to be angry. I’m not hearing any of the self-pitying “I wanted this to work, I feel like I failed, I have nothing left to give.” Now it’s just ice. Cold, distant. Not even temp checks. No anger, no anything. She has me completely convinced that she’s better off without me, and it doesn’t seem to be delusional. It almost doesn’t seem like there’s even an OM anymore. Just a former WW who isn’t coming back.

So maybe I’m better off without her. It still hurts. It’s almost like thinking of her as a WW makes it easier to maintain the sense of denial. “She’s crazy, don’t believe her lies.” What if she’s completely and entirely telling the truth? Then I have to face the fact that she’s right about all of those things she said. Ugh.

Maybe this is part of what I need to go through so that I can finally let go. Then maybe I can focus on me even more. It’s just exhausting.

Boo hoo, poor me. Scrw it. Time to read a book, do a crossword, and watch some TV. Today’s GAL is lazy time for me.

[burned]

MWD, DR, p. 215: “Fighting for your marriage under [these] circumstances takes courage, stamina, and blind determination.” And prior to that, on the same page, “If you’re not ready to give up on your marriage, keep fighting.”

Maybe someday I won’t be that guy who’s still fighting after she’s been gone for 2 years.

[burned]

Correct me if I'm wrong. Upon reviewing the last few text messages from WW, I identified something interesting. Thankfully I didn't respond and had some time to think about it.

When having a discussion with WW regarding money. Paraphrasing:

Burned: "These are the bills for the house that you will have to pay from now on."
WW: "OK, and what do you consider reasonable in terms of helping me pay them? Seeing as I don't want half of your assets." That was based on something I said last week that she didn't like. She hates talking about money, and she doesn't understand it. She resents me for having the upper hand there. (For the record, I said half of our assets.)

And then 2 minutes later, after no response from me, WW: "Anyway, thanks for the information. It is helpful, although it's hard." The phrase "it's hard," or something similar, has been something she has said over and over since BD2. It goes along with "it all just hurts.

I'm starting to see the pattern here. Burned brings up a cold, hard fact that needs to be dealt with, which WW hadn't really thought about. WW responds with anger/sarcasm, then feigned kindness. She's trying to play off of my NGS to get what she wants. She is seeing that maybe I won't play along. Ah, so...

I think I would classify this as a temp check of some kind. You could even call it "manipulation" and I wouldn't disagree.

Is this an expected reaction to how dark I have been and how assertive I have been when communicating? I mean, not that I'm great at it, but I'm trying to see the connection. This is helping me detach. Because aside from the last couple of sad posts (see above), mostly today I've felt like, "Ugh, do I have to deal with this woman again? It's never pleasant talking to her."

I understand now why it's so important to not respond right away. Sorry, Steve, I know you said that a couple months ago.

Hey, where's neffer with his temp check survival hug?

[sandi2]

But she doesn't have to temp check, she knows me, she sees me figuring out all the drama about separating belongings, changing accounts, etc. So she knows she still has me. I guess my fear is that forcing all of this "prep work" for D will just make her want D even more, like it's a done deal. Not in my control I guess.

Two things here...…..first, I have yet to see a LBH who was close to guessing his WW's train of thought. You guys can't figure out how a "normal" female's mind operates, so I think it's fair to say you probably won't be close to knowing the mindset of your WW. Especially a newbie. He is usually 180 degrees off from what his WW is actually thinking/feeling.

Second, why do you say you are "forcing" all this prep work for a D? Is it b/c you aren't sitting back waiting for her to do it?

This is where I get stuck, as we all know. Thinking about how it would affect her. Thinking that she will see me pulling away and start to worry that I am the one dumping her, like you said a few days ago. It's not WHY I'm doing it but my achy little heart wants so badly to think that something will change in a reasonable time frame. I know it won't. So I'm trying to change my expectations.

Let me see if I can explain it this way. You are seeing her as what you envision as a "normal" (for lack of a better word) woman, and how that normal woman would feel. Perhaps you are projecting your own feelings. Being in the kind of pain you are currently experiencing, you think how it would hurt her to be dumped. When the WW believes she is truly losing her H, it can cause her to really look at her loses, due to her bad decisions....especially how she treated him. At first, she'll temp check him a lot, to see if he is still emotionally attached. If that emotional attachment still allows some type of availability from him...…..the WW will probably take advantage of it. Remember, the WW has lost interest in him as a man, and as her H. When he turns the tables and dumps her, a strange thing happens. It's a little thing called human nature, and it has a funny way of waking up her interest in him, (and even act as a spark plug to dead sex life), when the WW believes her LBH is no longer wants *her*! Perhaps this is the part that confuses men. B/c it may have been something lacking in the MR that started this whole problem or maybe it was b/c of her lack of moral character. But for the sake of argument, let's say that a W is unhappy b/c she doesn't feel passion or the sexual attraction in their MR. So after a time, she finally b/c a WW and wants a D or is in an A. The H wakes up when he gets the bomb dropped and wants to become this perfect super H to hold the M together. When he hears that he needs to let go and dump his WW, he thinks, "Are you crazy?" It sounds as if that advice is totally contrary to what he feels should work. (Please note my line the bottom page of my posts). Here's the thing......it's as if the relationship has to start from scratch again. The MR you had is dead. In order to get a new MR, she needs to see you as an independent man who is sexually attractive, confident, competent, etc. She doesn't want a man who chases after her, acts pitiful, is a "yes dear" type, etc. Ever heard the phrase "play hard to get"? Well, don't play.....do it for real. The WW should work hard to get her H back! If she doesn't work for it, she probably won't value it the way she should.

What I'm telling you is true in most men-women relationships, IMHO. Look back at your high school and/or college years. You see a couple dating and one person loses interest.....until the other person is wanting out of the relationship to date someone else, or for whatever reason. Then the minute the second person is over it, you see the first person fighting to hold on to the one they thought they didn't want. I've seen it happen many times, when the H dumps his WW, she'll want him back. The problem, in many cases, is that the H lets her come back too easily and doesn't require anything in order to reconcile their MR (but I don't have time to go into all of that right now). The point is that the LBH has to have the courage to dump his WW, before he has a chance at getting her back again. If those words sound too strong, then "set her free" or "let her go". She doesn't want to be in a M with you, so set her free. If she really loves you, maybe she'll return. Life is too short to live with a spouse who doesn't love you.

You may not have the feelings to match the action, but that's okay. Do the action, and the feelings will catch up.

She resents me for having the upper hand there.

It's this wayward nature to balk whenever things don't go like she wants or dictates. Just address the issues in a confident manner, and try not to take what she says too personally. You have to let some things run off your back like water on a duck.

The phrase "it's hard," or something similar, has been something she has said over and over since BD2. It goes along with "it all just hurts.

Remember what I said about her playing the victim? This is just another example. It's like she forgets she was the one who wanted out. Some WW's sound as if they expect their LBH to feel sorry for them. Truth is......her head is in a fantasy world and she did not consider all these little facts of life that you have to deal with in the real world. Plus, if you were the type of H who took care of all the bills/business, then she probably just expected you to continue covering it.

WW responds with anger/sarcasm, then feigned kindness. She's trying to play off of my NGS to get what she wants

.

You know why, don't you? B/c it worked for her in the past.

Is this an expected reaction to how dark I have been and how assertive I have been when communicating?

Yes, it's a very common reaction. I wouldn't say it is necessarily due to you being dark or assertive at this point.
I think it is more b/c she knows how to push your NG buttons and that's what has worked in past situations. Good job in not caving!

Another thing you need to expect is her interactions becoming more unpleasant. It's all due to her discovering that reality doesn't fit into her little fantasy. She has to experience the fantasy crumbling. She is having an affair with a M man (if I don't have my stories confused), and she'll probably be facing some tough times. You can't break up two families and not experience some fallout somewhere.

For the most part, WW's try to justify ending their M. It's just part of it. Therefore, you can't let yourself get caught up in the FB drama or what's been said to certain people, etc. You have to develop a pretty thick skin, or get duck feathers. (Ha!)

You can do this, Burned! Keep putting one foot in front of the other.....and walk on! If she wants to catch up and walk beside you, then she'll have to do the work. Maybe you'll even give her that chance. Time will tell.

[burned]

Thanks. This is helpful. I'm trying to walk that fine line where I am dumping her, but not in an angry or bitter kind of way. It's my NGS: just sending her a text that does't start with, "Hey, sorry to bother, but would it be possible..." Rather than what I've been doing for the last week, which is, "This is what I need you to do." So I'm learning boundaries.

The NMMNG book is definitely a LOT more helpful and pertinent compared to when I first read it.

She was in an A with a married man. But now I don't know if she's still in that A, or whether he is still married, or whether she is seeing someone else. Doesn't matter, she's still wayward. I'm toughening up. Earlier today I caught myself thinking, "You know, 10% chance that OM really IS a great guy and has more to offer than I do in terms of what she really needs out of life." Then I realized that anyone who cheats on their W with a married woman CAN'T be a "great guy" no matter what. But since I know nothing about him, I have no idea what his weakness will end up being. My W is stubborn and if she could make a M with me last 10-11 years, she can probably do it with anyone, regardless of their weaknesses. If that's what she wants, good luck to her.

I think what I meant by "forcing" the D prep work is that in my mind, divvying up belongings, separating accounts, etc. is just a step in that direction. But here's another fine line I'm trying to walk, which is how to be strong/assertive without being so unavailable that she ends up always being the one who has to take charge in dealing with the nuts and bolts. Which then makes me look like I'm not letting go and haven't learned to tell her what MY needs are.

Or maybe that's how it has to go. She wants this, maybe she should do all of the dirty work. I'm super busy. I mean literally! She offered for me to get my stuff over the weekend. I told her I'd let her know my plans (because they weren't certain yet) and now I will have to tell her that I can't do it this weekend because 3 other people have contacted me to try to spend time with me. I'm in demand now! She, of course, may not notice or care. But then maybe the truth is the exact opposite.

Anyway, onward.

[neffer]

I see you´re moving forward B, you are not going to need my survival hugs soon...you´re getting stronger, I can feel the force in you...

Sending you one, just in case...

(((B)))

[hoosjim]

Haha never seen the word skrunk, I like it.

Thanks, its an original. I'm actually copyrighting it so that i can collect some royalties every time it's used to supplement my income and help pay for my kids' college.

That will be $10, please.