Burned is still here. This is thread 6.

[neffer]

"I wasnt the best partner for my wife. How can I learn to be a better partner in my next relationship?"

Keep your focus on what YOU need to be doing.

I'm just struggling like crazy with this. I've identified what I need to change about NGS. I've spent hours thinking about what I could have done better in my relationship. I understand what it takes to be a good partner.

But I have no partner to try it out on. And I can't get her out of my head.

Now it´s about how you relate with yourself. Learn to love yourself. It´s seems a light statement, well...it´s not.

[burned]

OK time to step it up a bit. Here are my personal goals:

1. Become more responsible
2. Become more confident
3. Become a better listener
4. Get better at overcoming fear
5. Improve my social skills (small talk, etc.)
6. Improve my sense of self
7. Stop procrastinating
8. Stop being lazy
9. Wake up on time and actually get out of bed
10. Exercise more in a way that I can (while injured)
11. Become more proactive, and increase willpower
12. Learn to tolerate conflict
13. Let go of the past
14. Become more resilient
15. Get better at managing stress
16. Become more mindful, appreciate what I have
17. Learn new skills
18. Become more positive

Crud. That's a huge list. Daunting.

Now based on something Amoafwl said a couple of weeks ago, I should probably define them better, identify actions that would lead to change, and define tangible signs that would indicate progress toward them.

[MoveFrwd]

OK time to step it up a bit. Here are my personal goals:

1. Become more responsible
2. Become more confident
3. Become a better listener
4. Get better at overcoming fear
5. Improve my social skills (small talk, etc.)
6. Improve my sense of self
7. Stop procrastinating
8. Stop being lazy
9. Wake up on time and actually get out of bed
10. Exercise more in a way that I can (while injured)
11. Become more proactive, and increase willpower
12. Learn to tolerate conflict
13. Let go of the past
14. Become more resilient
15. Get better at managing stress
16. Become more mindful, appreciate what I have
17. Learn new skills
18. Become more positive

Crud. That's a huge list. Daunting.

Now based on something Amoafwl said a couple of weeks ago, I should probably define them better, identify actions that would lead to change, and define tangible signs that would indicate progress toward them.

So for each one, come up with something you can do, let's say, by the end of October as a way of measuring your success at these. For examples:

Number 1 - are there bills you want to pay? Is there a budget you want to make and stick to? Is there a daily routine you want to adopt? Are you going to pack more lunches? etc.

Numbers 2/5 - Id say start a random conversation with someone at a GAL activity. Send at least 1 friend request to someone you dont know right now. Buy two new shirts that make you feel good about yourself. etc.

Numbers 7/8 - Are there apartment projects to do? How about no dishes on the counter or all laundry put away?

Number 10 - How many times to go to the gym or go for a walk?

Number 18 - watch the TED talk by Shawn Achor on the Happiness Advantage. Try the positivity journal.

[AnotherStander]

Wondering if anyone can provide info or resources related to, How/why do most As end, which ones don’t, how long it takes, etc. Only because in my darker moments I see two people, both of whom were in and they no longer wanted, both of whom cheated, both of whom have to live with the outcome of all that. They both start at the bottom, from the same place, the two of them versus the world, never looking back. Right? Because if I’m all angry at OM for being the kind of lowlife who would cheat on his W with a married woman...that also means that my W is a lowlife who would cheat on her H with a married man. They’re made for each other.

There aren't any statistics out there on such things, but it's generally regarded that most affairs do eventually crash and burn. Why? Well it stands to reason that someone who is cheating on their spouse has questionable judgment and morality to begin with. And the same could be said for anyone that would have sex with another person's spouse. So you've got two people with crappy decision-making skills and life choices having an affair for all the wrong reasons. No surprise that most of them don't last. Also there are a lot of men and women out there specifically looking to hook up with a married person because they like the challenge and the "wrongness" of it. Then when that person gets separated or divorced and wants to move in with them, well there goes all their "fun" and they dump them.

Now I have heard of some affairs that later became LTR's and even marriages, so it can go that way as well. But that's pretty unusual.

So what’s more important: demonstrating that I deserve respect by taking a hard stance? Or demonstrating to myself that I try to always do what is right, not to appease her but because it’s what I think is the right thing to do?

Well this is really a personal question, because what is "right" to you may or may not be to someone else. Personally I always follow my moral compass and do what I think is right, but the key is to have NO EXPECTATIONS. For example, my ex and I have been D'd quite a while now. Last weekend was my mom's 80th bday and my sis decided to throw a surprise party for her. I found out my ex was not only going, but was helping plan it. Now I could have taken a hard stance and told my sis that I didn't want my ex there. But to me (and I'm not saying this is right for everyone) but the "right" thing to do was to let her go and have fun, because she loves my family and my family loves her so why not? So we all went. I know that is going to sound really strange to a lot of people here, LOL! But my ex and I never really went through an "angry" phase in our sitch, despite everything we got along well throughout and we still do. So my answer to you is do what you think is right, as long as you are 100% sure you are doing it for that reason and not because you are expecting something in return. BEWARE OF COVERT CONTRACTS.

I mean, some day down the road, if she decides to circle back around, wouldn’t I want to be the person who stood by his values despite the selfish ways in which she took advantage of me? Or is that too NGS?

It's not NGS if you have no expectations.

Anyway: do they realize that by temp checking, by keeping US hanging on, they’re essentially showing their cards?

Right? Because if they were 100% done they’d just go entirely NC and vanish. So the temp check is proof that there’s still something they want or need from us. Meaning THEY haven’t let go entirely.

Yes that is correct. This is exactly why Sandi says to believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. They DO still have feelings. They have regrets, they have anxiety, they worry they're doing the wrong thing every single day. But they try not to ever let it show (and mostly they are pretty good at concealing it).

So in one sense, DB is a bit like ju jitsu or something.

Sort of, one of the DBing "competitors" even says that's what it is. You fight the person by going along with them rather than opposing them. You use their strengths to defeat them. She says she wants a D? Boxing would be saying "no, you don't get a D." Ju Jitsu is saying "well it's not what I want but OK, if that's what you want." It's not the best analogy because DBing isn't really "fighting" or "trying to win", it's simply backing off and giving her time and space. It's more like the Ghandi approach, she says she wants to fight but you refuse to engage, but rather stay centered and at peace.

[burned]

They DO still have feelings. They have regrets, they have anxiety, they worry they're doing the wrong thing every single day. But they try not to ever let it show (and mostly they are pretty good at concealing it).

I heard this somewhere else, I think you said it, Sandi definitely said it, and I'm sure it's run-of-the-mill stuff on the board here. But it really does baffle me. That's maybe why detachment is hard. I am the one who is not contacting HER, yet I'm thinking she's so happy and relieved that she will just keep doing what she's doing, which is, leaving.

So again, needing to turn the focus back on myself. Remind myself every day that I chose to do that FOR ME. Not touching the hot stove. Not interacting unless necessary, because otherwise I do more damage.

And I also realized at some point that [/i]maybe[/i] she does feel those things, but surely she is beyond cautious about saying them or even hinting at them, because in the past I would grab on and start pulling. Now she's the one trying to not touch the hot stove.

But once, just once, I wish I could have the satisfaction of knowing that part of her does wish I was still there.

^^^--- proof that I'm still detaching. :P

[AnotherStander]

But it really does baffle me. That's maybe why detachment is hard. I am the one who is not contacting HER, yet I'm thinking she's so happy and relieved that she will just keep doing what she's doing, which is, leaving.

One thing she probably is not is "happy". Yes she thinks splitting is the right thing to do, and even though she has constant doubts she will stick to her guns on that for quite a while.

But once, just once, I wish I could have the satisfaction of knowing that part of her does wish I was still there.

But if you did, that would probably just make you break into full-on pursuit mode. Which is why she does her best to never show you that she still has doubts.

[burned]

But if you did, that would probably just make you break into full-on pursuit mode. Which is why she does her best to never show you that she still has doubts.

Exactly!

[burned]

But once, just once, I wish I could have the satisfaction of knowing that part of her does wish I was still there.

But if you did, that would probably just make you break into full-on pursuit mode. Which is why she does her best to never show you that she still has doubts.

So this might also explain why they ARE still paying attention even if it feels like they aren't. You're plan B because there's still part of them that wants to see what you're capable of if THEY give YOU the gift of time and space.

And then maybe going dark is your way of showing consistently that you won't pursue them if they turn around and look over their shoulder.

[sandi2]

How/why do most As end, which ones don’t, how long it takes, etc. Only because in my darker moments I see two people, both of whom were in and they no longer wanted, both of whom cheated, both of whom have to live with the outcome of all that. They both start at the bottom, from the same place, the two of them versus the world, never looking back. Right?

I suppose you are not speaking of just any two people who are in an affair, but rather, your WW and OM. And, you are really wanting to know how long this affair may last, and what will end it. I find it interesting that you did not ask why affairs begin. But perhaps, in this case, you already know why it started. Many similar things can be found in all affairs, but I'm not sure about what you've stated above, and that's why I assume you are not speaking of all people in affairs.

Anyway, my question is...….does it matter to you? Does it matter if they are in an affair one week or several months? If you were considering forgiveness, would it be the sin of infidelity you forgave, or the amount of time she spent committing the infidelity? In other words, what does the time factor determine for you? I think I could understand how it would be easier to forgive a spouse who spent a couple of weeks cheating, compared to a couple of years. However, is it b/c we see tolerating the pain in a shorter or longer duration? I'm just asking.

Because if I’m all angry at OM for being the kind of lowlife who would cheat on his W with a married woman...that also means that my W is a lowlife who would cheat on her H with a married man.

If your wife was not involved in this affair, would you be angry at OM for cheating on his W? Considering your W is involved with this man, would it have make any difference for you, if the OM was not married? Would the pain be any less, if your W had cheated with a single man? If the OM had been single, would he not have been low life for having an affair with a married woman? Do you get what I'm pointing out? What does his marriage status have to do with having an affair with your W? That is my question.

...that also means that my W is a lowlife who would cheat on her H with a married man.

The way I see it, your W having an affair is wrong, regardless of who the man is. The fact that he is married and may have kids, causes a lot of pain for those attached to him. I don't necessarily understand how it would change your personal feelings toward the fact that he is sleeping with your W. Does having a family make him more of a lowlife for cheating? Yes, I suppose it does...….but what does it matter to you and how you feel toward him? I'm just trying to understand.

Does it make your W a lowlife b/c she cheated with a M man.....or b/c she cheated at all? Would it hurt less if the OM had been single? Would she not have been as guilty, if he had not been M? I think I understand what you are saying, and I don't mean to sound as if I am trying to decrease the seriousness of their actions. I'm just trying to help you stay balanced in your thinking. Infidelity is a sin, but it's not an unforgiveable sin. You have a right to fee anger. I think men tend to blame the OM and direct their anger at OM. However, both affair partners are guilty.

You are trying to process a lot of shock and pain. I'm so sorry you are hurting. I wish I could say something to help.
((hugs))

P.S. I don't expect you to write answers to these questions. It's just a style of writing.

[burned]

No worries, I appreciate all styles of writing. I'm kind of philosophical, I like asking questions to see if that affects people's way of thinking. A lot of questions are worth asking even if they don't have answers.

And, you are really wanting to know how long this affair may last, and what will end it. I find it interesting that you did not ask why affairs begin. But perhaps, in this case, you already know why it started.

It's true, I'm a person who really hates uncertainty. Life is so much easier to deal with when you know what to expect ... so that you can control it. NGS! No, but seriously, just because I have read in lots of places that 6-9 months is a typical time frame. But this affair seems different, maybe because I'm stuck in it. Maybe because I don't know enough about it. But you have two couples, neither with children, both in what the cheating spouses would consider to be lousy marriages. They meet, they see a new life, it was meant to be. They get together, they start building a life. All that's left is getting rid of the two lousy spouses. It's just a story with a happy ending, at least for them. And, like I keep saying, all of this only applies if the A is still there. If it is, it explains a lot of things, especially what happened the week before I joined the board here. Other than that, her decision on August 3rd to scream at me, cancel all of our future plans, and remove all photos of me from "our" house...then that's just a cold, rational decision that our M is entirely over, regardless of whoever else is in the picture. That's almost worse to think about.

As for why affairs begin, I've read several books and still trying to understand it. I know that it comes down to the right person, the right place, the right time, and the right conditions. And the right conditions, usually, involve unmet needs in a marriage. For example...the "man" is just a little boy that his W can't count on. I'm halfway through a book called "Hold on to your NUTs" which is another NGS-type book but it's really mostly about how to be a man in a relationship. So, kind of bittersweet. Trying to learn to be better, but it's also making me realize a lot of things I did wrong. I remember W saying on several occasions during MC (our MC's name was Sandy, FWIW) something like, "Sure, when things are good they're good, but what about when they're bad?" Translation: I can't count on you to be a man when I need you to be. You don't follow through with your commitments. You don't stand up for US when something goes wrong. You only think of YOU. Etc. Oh, man, if I could just go back in time a year knowing what I know now... But then, this isn't the kind of situation where the W has concerns and she tells them to the H and the H addresses them promptly. The WAY it happened is just terrible, on both sides. I am learning to accept my responsibility in what led to the A. But the A was just a really $hitty thing. And to then sort of drop me on my @ss without closure, and then expect that we can still be friends...with friends like that, no need for enemies.

Anyway, my question is...….does it matter to you? Does it matter if they are in an affair one week or several months? If you were considering forgiveness, would it be the sin of infidelity you forgave, or the amount of time she spent committing the infidelity? In other words, what does the time factor determine for you? I think I could understand how it would be easier to forgive a spouse who spent a couple of weeks cheating, compared to a couple of years. However, is it b/c we see tolerating the pain in a shorter or longer duration? I'm just asking.

Funny. Despite the bitterness, which comes and goes, it's not really the length of the A that matters. I'd like it to end sooner rather than later. I'd like for her to not have fallen so in love with him that she will never be able to feel the same way about me again. It drives me bonkers to think about her saying things to him that she used to say to me, making plans about how happy their life will be now that they found their real soul mates.

But in the "Hold on to your NUTs" book there's a chapter about being the rock. And I was thinking of you, Sandi, reading it. I'm just struggling to understand how to show her that I can be her rock, now that I know that that's what she needs, without being a "pushover," without appeasing the WW and losing even more respect. I'm just completely out of ammunition. There's nothing I can do DIRECTLY without being seen as manipulative. All I can do is give her time and space, work on myself, and see what happens. But she won't really care much until the A ends, if it ever does. Because these days it doesn't really feel like an A. It feels like she is done with me and he is her new boyfriend. Does it count as an A if the relationship is so dead that the only proof it ever existed is a legal document parked in a town hall in the northern part of the state we live in?

If your wife was not involved in this affair, would you be angry at OM for cheating on his W? Considering your W is involved with this man, would it have make any difference for you, if the OM was not married? Would the pain be any less, if your W had cheated with a single man? If the OM had been single, would he not have been low life for having an affair with a married woman? Do you get what I'm pointing out? What does his marriage status have to do with having an affair with your W? That is my question.

It means nothing to me, in the grand scheme of things. I just mean that it's unjust to consider HIM a cheating lowlife while thinking of my W as such a nice person. She's just the same as him. She was in an unhappy marriage and she found someone better. Does it count as cheating if what you're really doing, essentially, is getting ready to leave your respective spouses to start a new and better relationship? Sure, we the spouses don't like how it happened. But if I love my W and want her to be happy, and that's what she needs, it would be wrong of me to say, well, she's a cheating liar. Because the reality is, she's a person with needs that I wasn't able to meet and he was. So she is better off with him in that case. Stinks for me, but oh well. Right?

I guess what it boils down to isn't whether I'd be able to forgive her. I've already realized that I'm able to forgive her for just about anything. Maybe that's a problem, I don't know. My IC says it isn't right to attach conditions to forgiveness, like, "I'll forgive you as long as you stay with me." I just wonder where the transition point is, in terms of time frames. How long does this pain have to go on? I wish I could just know. I can forgive her for being so confused and hurt that she would try to make it work with him for another year, before realizing that I'm the better option. I mean, the new me, of course. But what if it's 5 years? What if it's the rest of her life? What kind of strength does it take to "forgive" someone for doing what ended up being the best thing for them? If our M lasted 10 years (11 on paper) but theirs would last another 40, then who's the bad guy in this situation? The one who threw a tantrum when he didn't get what he wanted because his W was fortunate enough to get something better?

So yeah, it's easier to be angry at OM than it is to be angry at myself for having created the conditions in my M that made it so easy for him to jump in and "steal" my W. But what I'm learning is that nobody stole her. I lost her through my own actions. And so forth.

So to go back to time frames, it's almost like I wish I knew if there's some chance that at some point in the future the A would end (if it hasn't already) AND it would give her an opportunity to turn toward me again and see if I'm not the better option. Like she did for 2 weeks when OM's W found out and my W was NC with him. Sure, I have learned from this board that that was WAY too easy for her.

But at least she was paying attention then. I maybe missed my last chance.

So who knows what I'm really getting at. I'm basically trying to not lose hope that she is completely gone. And yet she is. And it doesn't change what I have to do or how I have to approach things. Just that it hurts and I'm looking for some kind of meaning in all of this. Can I be her rock even when she doesn't want me to be? Can I trust that there's some journey she has to take, but that in the end it will have been worth it for both of us? Almost like, if all of this leads to reconciliation, it would seem less like a tragedy and more like an important step. Other than that, it's easy to look at it as a terrible thing that happened and a pretty lousy way to end things.

So there's where the appeasement question comes up again. What's more important? Showing the WW that I am strong by NOT appeasing her? Or showing her that I am reliable and consistent, by doing what she expects me to do? Or maybe one part of that has to come first? And am I making things worse by being dark, like, giving her the impression that I am "punishing" her by withdrawing my support? I don't know. That's the counterintuitive part I think.

You all have been doing this way longer than me and I trust the advice I'm getting. There are even moments when I start to feel like all of this will be worthwhile EVEN IF we don't end up together. It's just not my preferred outcome. And it's a feeling that unfortunately doesn't stick around for very long before I get stuck on her again.