Burned is still here. This is thread 6.

[hoosjim]

Gonna take some heat for asking this, probably (burned, stop focusing on her!)... but for the sake of education and maybe just to help me maintain some balance. Wondering if anyone can provide info or resources related to, How/why do most As end, which ones don’t, how long it takes, etc.

MWD talks about this in a fair amount of detail in TDR, I think. Idk, i don't think there is any specific timeline. I have heard various places anywhere between 6 months and two years, and I think MWD came down in this time frame in her books. I think it really depends, though... obviously a WHOLE lot of variables at play, and, as others have noted, some APs DO end up getting married and staying together, even as the odds are against it.

In my case, what i will call the "Active Affair" part of things lasted about 9 months. This would be the time from which communications between my W and the OM (a former friend of mine) "Crossed the line" (Mid to late October 2016) to the point at which she stopped actively seeing him or trying to see him (Late July 2017). And am being generous/loose with my eval here, to mean that "crossing the line" means where pretty much everyone would agree that a line was crossed. (They obviously knew each other and communicated prior to that time, he being a reasonably close friend of the family.) But it was significantly longer if you want to include the period of time where she continued to take calls from him and couldn't bring herself to completely cut contact, even as she was not initiating contact herself nor trying to see him. That stretched out to late March 2018, for a grand total of 17 months plus.

But, whatever, you know what you have to do, which is put HER behind you... and work on yourself.

[burned]

Just realized that MWD's Healing From Infidelity book was the first and best A book I read, like within a week after BD. (I'm all about the books.) And I remember thinking to myself, "hmm, maybe I should order DR. Oh, but it's like 20 years old, there's no way there would be anything useful in there."

Big mistake. Huge.

On a side note, the books by Esther Perel (The State of Affairs) and Mira Kirschenbaum (When Good People Have Affairs) were pure garbage. Funny, those were the only ones W read, because they justified her actions. Yeah, I made her read some books. Lesson learned. Pass it on.

So yeah, seems like 6-12 months is a pretty consistent estimate for a run-of-the-mill A. For my W, I figure 2 years is a safe ballpark. Especially because it doesn't feel like one of those As where it's about thrill and unmet needs. It really does feel more like, "hey, here's the guy I should have married, better hold on tight and deal with the fallout of my old M as it comes." But I could be wrong.

But, whatever, you know what you have to do, which is put HER behind you... and work on yourself.

Yep, doesn't change what I need to do. So I march on. But man, I look at some of the other people on this board and it's crazy how much harder this seems to be for me than it is for others. Oh well.

[burned]

Putting her behind me. Except for the crazy dreams with her in them.

Today: 6 months since BD1. Half a year of this. Never thought I'd be in the place I am today. I'll never be the same.

Yesterday: first text message in 4 days, which is a new NC record (yeah, I know, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things). Just an FYI that I have mail at the house, including a bill from IC. And then a question about an invoice, to which I responded very tersely. And that was it. Was it a temp check? She didn't have to send me the text, she could just put the mail in a big envelope and send it to my work address. (Sorry, AS, I know I shouldn't be putting this much thought into what it all means, but I'm trying to learn so I can choose better responses when it happens again.)

Reading The Solo Partner and it just suuuuuuukks. Pursuit and distance. I was the distancer, for years. Beginning last year she stopped her pursuit and it all started to unravel. Almost feels like she and her IC read the same chapter and implemented it. Modern woman in a stifling marriage finally breaks free. Maybe the A was just a side effect.

So the cards have been stacked against me for a long time. Like the author says, I have to use the pain as fuel for growth. There's even a chapter at the end about separation and how helpful that can be and how it doesn't always have to end in D. But the rest of the book is just a gigantic list of things I could have done better.

So I dropped the pursuit and I felt some of the things he said I'd feel. Has been about 2 weeks of darkness. Need to be patient, things aren't going to change overnight. Will she become the pursuer again? Does she wonder about me? Does she miss me? Who knows.

Doesn't change what I need to do. Stay dark. Time and space. Marathon.

[MoveFrwd]

For my W, I figure 2 years is a safe ballpark.

So....what does that information do for you?

Especially because it doesn't feel like one of those As where it's about thrill and unmet needs. It really does feel more like, "hey, here's the guy I should have married, better hold on tight and deal with the fallout of my old M as it comes." But I could be wrong.

Right. And frankly, Id wager it's more likely you are wrong than right.

Thats why we want you to focus more on what you can control.

[burned]

For my W, I figure 2 years is a safe ballpark.

So....what does that information do for you?

It actually calms me down. It's like knowing that I don't have to give up yet (on her, on the M) because there's still some possibility that things could change. Kind of like, I can separate the M stuff from the LIFE stuff. And it makes it easier to be patient, for some reason? Or maybe it makes it easier to detach? Just spitballing.

It's funny. I slept badly last night, and today is a kind of annoyingly symbolic mile marker on this crazy road. But I just stopped and noticed that this week, the crushing chest pain seems to subside more quickly and I get back into a mindset of, "OK, there it is, that's that. Now what can I deal with that is in front of me?" Like, in a moment I'm going to deal with some paperwork and get ready for the work day. And it won't take me quite as long to get going. I dwell on things a bit less.

[MoveFrwd]

For my W, I figure 2 years is a safe ballpark.

So....what does that information do for you?

It actually calms me down. It's like knowing that I don't have to give up yet (on her, on the M) because there's still some possibility that things could change. Kind of like, I can separate the M stuff from the LIFE stuff. And it makes it easier to be patient, for some reason? Or maybe it makes it easier to detach? Just spitballing.

If that works for you, then great. Just remember, they might have broken up already. Or maybe today. Or tomorrow. Or next month. Or next year. Or never. Two years is just a guess. And it may not even be a good one.

What I want to emphasize is that the date doesnt really mean anything. Because it signifies waiting. I think waiting is such a passive word. It isnt an action. It isnt anything you have control over. It robs you of the power over your own life. I dont think patience is the same thing. It's about letting your life unfold before you without needing to rush . Don't put your life on hold waiting for her to do or say something. Think about it like going to a restaurant - let's say the host says that a table will be ready in 15 minutes. After 15 minutes and no table...then what? "Waiting" would be getting up and checking on the status regularly and sticking it out until eventually you get seated. "Patience" would be reading a book or playing on your phone until you either get seated or decide to go somewhere else.

I think it may be a bad example, but the point is to control what you can. You can keep a guide in your head, but ultimately, youl know when you are done whether its in 2 months, 2 years or 2 decades.

[AnotherStander]

And then a question about an invoice, to which I responded very tersely. And that was it. Was it a temp check?

A temp check is more along the lines of "how are you?" or "Have you been seeing anyone?" or "sometimes I miss us" or that sort of thing. Something that baits you into an R discussion, and if you take the bait then you quickly find yourself right back on the rear burner safely as Plan B again. Anything about bills or the kids is probably just "business" and not a temp check.

There's even a chapter at the end about separation and how helpful that can be and how it doesn't always have to end in D.

Yeah that's true. What usually happens in S is the LBS grieves and finally drops the rope and lets go, then by the time the WAS looks back the LBS is done. So it doesn't necessarily end in D, but when it does it seems it's because of the LBS as much as the WAS.

But the rest of the book is just a gigantic list of things I could have done better.

Don't beat yourself up over it, just learn and move on. We ALL could and should have been better spouses. Here's the deal- none of us are taught these things, we have to seek out the info for ourselves. And we need a trigger to do that, and unfortunately that trigger is usually BD. So while we could have done things better, we are not "guilty", just uneducated in the ways of being a great spouse. And honestly, can a single one of us here say our WAS was the perfect spouse? Oh hell no, because a perfect spouse would work hard to correct problems in the M, not run away from them. And I'm sorry but the WAS constantly nagging is NOT working hard to correct problems. Nagging is negative energy that makes us shut down, it is not productive. So learn and keep moving forward. It's more than your W will do.

Need to be patient, things aren't going to change overnight. Will she become the pursuer again? Does she wonder about me? Does she miss me? Who knows.

You're right, it doesn't change overnight. It takes months. And here's how you know things have changed, these things will not even be on your radar:

Will she become the pursuer again? Does she wonder about me? Does she miss me?

Those questions simply won't matter to you. Because the idea here isn't to change her attitude, it's to change YOU.

[burned]

We ALL could and should have been better spouses. Here's the deal- none of us are taught these things, we have to seek out the info for ourselves. And we need a trigger to do that, and unfortunately that trigger is usually BD. So while we could have done things better, we are not "guilty", just uneducated in the ways of being a great spouse.

This. Over and over, no matter how it's phrased. It's a recurring theme. It's almost like BD was some kind of gold nugget wrapped in greasy brown paper that came out of a used pizza box. "The focusing energy of pain" is what I read somewhere in the "going dark" thread, I think.

I'm in fairly significant pain most of the time that I'm not distracted by something else. And yet I'm not the zombie I was the day before BD. And I won't ever be again.

[sandi2]

Other than that, her decision on August 3rd to scream at me, cancel all of our future plans, and remove all photos of me from "our" house...then that's just a cold, rational decision that our M is entirely over, regardless of whoever else is in the picture. That's almost worse to think about.

I don't think most NGH's (nice guy husbands) have any idea just how cold and calculating a wayward W can be. Some WW's are worse than others, of course. However, I don't believe everything was peachy-keen in the MR and suddenly on Aug 3rd, it came crashing down. Your W had been harboring resentment and disrespect (and any additional negative feelings for you) before that day in Aug. Maybe you were blind, or maybe she didn't effectively communicate the issues that made her unhappy in the M. But in your own words, you wrote that she had been checked out for at least two years.

Am I misunderstanding you about Aug 3rd? I mean, it sounds as if you are saying you were totally blindsided. As if there had not been previous months you were aware of the A. So, at what point did you realize she had been checked out for at least 2 years? Look Burned, I'm not picking on you. I just want you to keep your head straight about how things fell apart. Sometimes, a LBH is so focused on just the affair, or the OM......that he fools himself into believing everything was honky-dory before OM came along. He sees OM as stealing W, but I assure you it wasn't against her will. Maybe your W had not betrayed you until OM came along, but there was something missing in her MR that caused her to accept or pursue the attention of OM. That's how this wayward mindset works. And, her wayward mindset played a major, major role, before she ever cheated. Know what I mean? A foundation of unforgiveness, unresolved resentment, anger, and other negative issues were previously laid in her heart/mind. Don't make it sound as if this affair is like some romantic novel, where they fall hopelessly in love, and live happily ever after. Don't dress it up and don't buy into the lie. What they are feeling is lust and excitement.....b/c they knew it was wrong. Once they are put together and the spouses aren't fighting to keep them, the thrill will die. And here's the thing about the fact they were both M to other people when they chose to sneak around...….there will always a little fear in their relationship that one of them will cheat again. How can two cheaters have a trusting relationship?

"Sure, when things are good they're good, but what about when they're bad?" Translation: I can't count on you to be a man when I need you to be. You don't follow through with your commitments. You don't stand up for US when something goes wrong. You only think of YOU. Etc.

This is an example of how she was struggling to respect you as a man, and as her H (who is her protector and leader). So, it sounds like she was trying to tell you what she needed. And listen, Burn, every female has these same needs. It is a natural thing born in women since the beginning of the human race. It's not some flippant complaint she threw in the air. This is a legit need women have in their man......and if he fails to deliver, then she is left emotionally vulnerable.

If she never saw improvement in that area, then she would develop feelings of disrespect, etc. In order to continue staying with a man she really didn't respect, she would have to push all those unresolved issues down into her heart. See what I mean? If MC didn't help to bring about the things she said she needed from you, then those unsettled issues and negative feelings lingered. They didn't go away. After a period of time and there is no evidence of her H trying to make changes, she feels defeated and stops talking to him about it. It takes the hope out of her. It kills her attraction for him, and eventually the intimacy completely stops. I could go on and on, b/c this is such a serious problem in M's today.

Oh, man, if I could just go back in time a year knowing what I know now... But then, this isn't the kind of situation where the W has concerns and she tells them to the H and the H addresses them promptly.

What do you mean?

But the A was just a really $hitty thing. And to then sort of drop me on my @ss without closure, and then expect that we can still be friends...with friends like that, no need for enemies.

Closure? Drop you on your @ss without closure? What would that look like with closure? She told you the problem she had with you, and she went to MC...…..plus, you knew months ago about her affair and admitted to "letting some things happen". So, I don't follow you. I'm not saying you should take responsibility for her affair, b/c that is on her. And, I totally agree about not being her friend while she conducts her affair. You sure wouldn't gain any respect points that way.

I'd like for her to not have fallen so in love with him that she will never be able to feel the same way about me again.

Really? Listen to yourself. So if she had not have fallen quite so deeply in love with OM......and was able to feel the same way about you some day........it would have been okay to have an affair??? Your self esteem must be setting on zero. You've made several statements that blew me away, but I don't have time to go over every one. But one example was asking if it would still be considered an affair as long as there was a legal document of marriage. Yes, it would. Look, if the affair began during the time of the MR, why would the name change from "affair" to...…...respectfully cheating? As someone once told me, "It would have more decent if you had divorced your H before you started an affair". See, the length of time doesn't determine whether or not it is still an affair. A marriage document makes that call. An affair doesn't get to fade into some less offensive name just b/c it continues. You can wear a tux while you do it, but it's still wrong. Call it what it is.

I'm just struggling to understand how to show her that I can be her rock,

You mean now.....or after you reconcile? Describe what you see as being "her rock".

I wanted to say more, but this post is already way too long, so maybe we'll continue the subject after I hear from you.

[Twofeet]

Burned are there any NGS groups or NGS counselors in your area? I'm no expert, but it seems like you could use more help beyond the book. Also figure out where you failed and move on, don't dwell on the past. What's done is done you can't change that. You can live a million different lives based on what you could have done. Live in the present and get out of your head. We are here for you man.