Equalzr's WW. Still accepting advice! Pt 3

[neffer]

Loneliness is also a state of mind. You are with yourself. Enjoy being you, do what you like to do. It’s a time I particularly enjoy. When reading and posting in this forum for instance. My time.

[burned]

Hey, I'm getting around to reading more people's sitches and I'm working on yours. Looks like your WW has some similarities to mine, and you might have some similarities to me. Codependent, beta, focused on "providing" rather than leading. Forgive me if that's inaccurate. But hey, we're learning, right?

Does being spiteful help her deal with her guilt??

Yes, I think. I see you have trouble detaching, as do I. I know that I'm so sensitive to what other people think of me that I pretty much always assume that what they're saying is right and what I feel or think is therefore wrong. So WW runs around berating and rewriting and changing goalposts. Mainly to justify her actions and assuage her guilt.

But how do we know? And how do we know how much is true? And isn't there a grain of truth to all of it? So then which came first, her spitefulness or the A? Sandi would say the spitefulness came first. But then I think they double down on it, a) because it has worked for them in the past, b) because of human nature and the need (for some people) to make other people feel bad so they feel less bad about themselves. My WW even used THAT to justify her actions. Told me that I was always making her feel bad to make myself feel less bad. Now I feel bad about having done that. So we were both codependents with low self-esteem. Is there any wonder my M disintegrated? Yeesh.

As to the thing about OM coaching our WWs, that one just gets me riled up. It goes against my own personal narrative of WW being such a sweet, innocent woman. Much easier to blame it on OM, thinking they actually sat down and discussed strategies to keep the thing going. I mean what kind of person has the guts to do that? "Hey let's use this app so that our idiot spouses don't catch us." Makes me want to hurl.

[equalzr]

Hey, I'm getting around to reading more people's sitches and I'm working on yours. Looks like your WW has some similarities to mine, and you might have some similarities to me. Codependent, beta, focused on "providing" rather than leading. Forgive me if that's inaccurate. But hey, we're learning, right?

Does being spiteful help her deal with her guilt??

Yes, I think. I see you have trouble detaching, as do I. I know that I'm so sensitive to what other people think of me that I pretty much always assume that what they're saying is right and what I feel or think is therefore wrong. So WW runs around berating and rewriting and changing goalposts. Mainly to justify her actions and assuage her guilt.

But how do we know? And how do we know how much is true? And isn't there a grain of truth to all of it? So then which came first, her spitefulness or the A? Sandi would say the spitefulness came first. But then I think they double down on it, a) because it has worked for them in the past, b) because of human nature and the need (for some people) to make other people feel bad so they feel less bad about themselves. My WW even used THAT to justify her actions. Told me that I was always making her feel bad to make myself feel less bad. Now I feel bad about having done that. So we were both codependents with low self-esteem. Is there any wonder my M disintegrated? Yeesh.

As to the thing about OM coaching our WWs, that one just gets me riled up. It goes against my own personal narrative of WW being such a sweet, innocent woman. Much easier to blame it on OM, thinking they actually sat down and discussed strategies to keep the thing going. I mean what kind of person has the guts to do that? "Hey let's use this app so that our idiot spouses don't catch us." Makes me want to hurl.

Burned, thanks for taking the time to look at my sitch.

My ww told me that if i was doing everything i was supposed to do, the door to her A would have never been opened up. No matter what, they wont take responsibility.

As far as OM goes, when i was in my snooping phase i saw messages of them talking about our family business and even discussing my S. Thats what really set me off. How low is ww that she would discuss our S with OM and have him give her input. The moment i saw that, i lost the last little bit of respect i had for my WW. I dont like OM one bit and its tough not to go do something to him at times, but my vows were with my WW who decided to go lay in another mans bed w/ him. Also, i know that WW and OM lie and manipulate each other so they are in love in a symbiotic(?) R. I think distrust will probably be their undoing at some point.

As far as me personally, i think i had relaxed as i grew a bit older and became more beta. Ive never been one to care what people think of me, but i do care what my family thinks of me. Detaching has been tough, we have 20 years together. I accepted MR was over long ago and ive recently accepted there is nothing left. That doesnt mean i dont still long for the W i had though.

[burned]

My ww told me that if i was doing everything i was supposed to do, the door to her A would have never been opened up. No matter what, they wont take responsibility.

That was one of my favorites when I got that one from WW, maybe some time during MC. Some of the A books say the same thing. Fact is, it's true. But when you say it post-hoc like that, what it really means is, "It's your fault I had to cheat." That's crappy, unfair, and just plain wrong.

Plus it's just another move in an unwinnable game. The A happened. Then you try to change the things that "opened the door to the A" and then she says, "Yeah, thanks but too little too late." Or, "Thanks but you're just doing that to control me." Or whatever else they say. And you kill what little respect you had left. It's all over Sandi's threads and posts, this isn't my own insight or anything. But yeah, it's part of the script.

I actually was thinking about this while reading one of the many self-help books scattered around my apartment. Think about the meaning behind the statement. Not just, "I wish you had done better on this issue," not just, "My dissatisfaction with your performance was a reason I was unhappy, and my unhappiness was a reason for the A." Get down to the 3rd layer. "The responsibility for the success of the M was yours, and because you failed to live up to my expectations (which were probably unreasonable to begin with), the responsibility for the breakdown of the M is yours."

Twisted, irrational, immature thinking. I'll accept up to 50% of the responsibility. Plus I get 5% off for the A. So it's 55% on her.

You and I both got M relatively young. I think both of our Ws, and probably both of us, had a lot to learn about MRs. I think all of us did our best to work with what we had and try to improve. I'll admit that at one point I started phoning it in, and that was the beginning of the end. But then why was I phoning it in? What changed in her that made me change? Or what changed in me that made her change that made me change? W and I are both responsible. But again, as we LBHs keep saying...we're not the ones who stepped out. That's not a healthy way to problem-solve. And as AS said somewhere on my thread, nagging doesn't count. The whole thing about "I bugged you and begged you and you hated me for nagging," that's after the fact justification, rationalization, etc.

Like I said before, here or somewhere else I posted. The hard part is trying to sort out the useful information from the garbage spew.

That doesnt mean i dont still long for the W I had though.

You can see me struggling with this, too. I thought I had it made. I didn't. Now I'm trying to resuscitate a MR that not only didn't really exist except in my head, it's also just gone and done. And like people keep saying, neither of us want to go back to that. But it's HER. Or the her that she used to be. If we were both single and met somewhere I'd still find her fascinating, lively, beautiful. But now I know her much more deeply, and I know how badly we related to each other, in many ways. Plus what she is capable of in terms of betrayal, lies, disrespect.

Hence the need for us LBHs to change, or else it'll be right back to that. Not like WW is making any changes, right? Still blaming us for what went wrong, still acting like the problem is external and switching it up will solve it.

That's like wearing soccer cleats and complaining that every time you stand on a water bed it starts leaking and you have to get a new water bed. Something like that.

[equalzr]

I concur, we definitely went into MR ignorant of what was needed from both sides to succeed. I take the blame for my part in the divide that started in my MR, but not the A that WW had or the end of the M since i never wanted a D.

I know this is to be expected, but WW has not once taken any of the blame for whats happened nor has she looked at herself snd said i can change xyz and be a better W.

My WW is selfish and a self admitted narcassist. Her A and the D definitely smell of selfishness.

[burned]

Posting from my phone here so not too wordy.

Was she diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder? In that case you’ve got a tough life ahead of you if you want to reconcile. And reconciliation might be impossible with someone who is THAT concerned about her image and how the actions of others affect her impression of herself and her impression of what other people SHOULD think about her. NPD is a trendy diagnosis these days. A real narcissist will be essentially unwilling to change unless it’s worth their while.

On the other hand, then you have the other 95% of humans. We are all selfish to some extent, some people more than others. I think one aspect of the WW is an attitude of, “Nobody was looking out for me so I’m going to look out for myself.”

I’m thinking maybe people with a slightly higher tendency to selfishness or narcissism (my WW comes to mind) are the ones more likely to end up with someone who has NGS. We gravitate to them because we see them as confident, leader-like people and we don’t feel that way about ourselves. They gravitate to us because we serve their needs (we go with the flow that they create). But a NG is a kind of “inverted” narcissist who has many subtle ways of getting what he wants. The perfect recipe for a power struggle.

[burned]

As I’m thinking about it, one of the hardest things I’ve had to cope with is this feeling: OK, so you wanted out, there were problems in the MR. Why did you have to do it THAT way?

It tells you that their problem-solving strategies aren’t up to snuff. Or, they lost control and now they’re trying to justify it. Or, they really are narcissistic and stopped caring about your feelings the minute you stopped serving their need for admiration.

[equalzr]

No she hasnt been diagnosed but, she is a self admitted narciccist. She exhibits pretry much all the traits as well. I think my W has apologized to me (im sorry BUT) maybe 2-3 times in 20 years. All the other times were squarely my fault in her mind.

I dont see her ever seeking reconciliation. She just doesnt have the personality that could say "im sorry, i messed up, and i have a lot of work to do to fix myself". Her image is very important to her, and she accused me of trying to ruin it early on in her A. I guess she couldnt figure out that deserting her family, having an affair, and treating me like trash throughout the process had something to do with it???

I can actually remember my WW saying that she had done so much for her family that now its time for her, so that definitely rings true. That seems to be a staple of a WW and MLC'ers(she is definitely in mlc), they are 100% in selfish mode and anything in the way willbget run over.

You could definitely have something with the following aling thing. My WW and i are opposites and she isbdefinitely a go getter and quick decision maker. Im the opposite, and alwaysnfelt that we fit together, but i became the follower and her the leader, so that makes sense.

[equalzr]

As I’m thinking about it, one of the hardest things I’ve had to cope with is this feeling: OK, so you wanted out, there were problems in the MR. Why did you have to do it THAT way?

It tells you that their problem-solving strategies aren’t up to snuff. Or, they lost control and now they’re trying to justify it. Or, they really are narcissistic and stopped caring about your feelings the minute you stopped serving their need for admiration.

Me as well. I understand WW was unahappy for quite some time, but i cant respect the way she went about this. Id be crushed either way, but she could have gave me an ultimatum or just said she was unhappy and moved on, and that will haunt me for a long time. The destruction she caused in her path to A and then D didnt need to happen at all. She displayed selfishness to its highest level with no regard for me or our S.

[burned]

OK, finished all of your threads. Wow. You, sir, are a hero. Possibly a martyr. Another aspect of NGS.

To clear up a few things. I had you mixed up with someone else. So no, my WW isn’t nearly as bad as yours. Yours sounds a bit closer to the MLC side, while mine feels to me (at least from where I’m standing) to be more like a WAW.

I’m learning a lot from you and I’ll keep an eye on your progress. Trying to focus less on me and more on others.

Anything new with the D process?