Burned is still here. This is thread 6.

[neffer]

Waiting is a passive word Amoafwl said.

Time to move Forward B

[burned]

Wow. A quick check on my phone before going to bed, and I had to break out the laptop. But I wasn't able to finish the post last night. It got crazy long with way too many details. Not sure that they'd be helpful. I essentially wrote out the whole story since BD1 (which was exactly 6 months ago yesterday). But I saved it for later.

tl;dr

1. need to GAL and quit writing book-length posts on this board
2. sticking with the DB stuff I’ve already implemented, specifically going dark
3. starting to feel better, but not yet past the point of worrying what effect it will have on W -- and still obsessing too much over things I can’t control, like the A -- but desperate to undertstand it and make sense of it all
4. I know it’s only a short time, but I went dark ~2 weeks ago and our communication has been all business -- after the first temp check I ignored, nothing else
5. missing W, so much, wanting so badly to think that she might come back to the “new me”

-----

I don't think most NGH's (nice guy husbands) have any idea just how cold and calculating a wayward W can be.

I do now.

Am I misunderstanding you about Aug 3rd?

A little. Let me explain.

Last night I finally mustered up the courage to re-read the journal I was using in July/August.

I started reading this board toward the end of July. Joined in early August. Between July 21 and August 3, she was NC w/ OM and (in my pre-DB mindset) there was another movement toward R. In hindsight it was because she felt she had to settle. Using language like, "It seems silly not to," or, "I don't see any other way." But more loving, more interested, closer.

Then we got into an argument at dinner on the 2nd, and the next day was really "the end" in a much more definitive way. This is why when I joined the board I was acting as if she was WAW, not WW. (Of course I learned from you, Sandi, about how the WW is always WW even if there is no more A.) At that point I had no reason to believe OM was back. I figured she just finally gave up on waiting to see if I would change. Anyway I wasn't doing anything to change, I was just waiting.

One thing I wonder about often is the connection between her becoming angry and her going back to OM. They are correlated in time, but it's difficult to determine causality. I'd hate to think that the things I did to make her angry were the things that pushed her right back into his arms.

But that's what you're saying, Sandi. It's the buildup of resentment that led to all of this. To be clear, I have read and studied everything I can about WW syndrome that you've written in various places. And I appreciate the input I've been getting specific to my sitch. It took me a while but something really clicked a couple of weeks ago when I stopped thinking "Yeah but my W is different" and started reevaluating everything in the context of her being a WW. Suddenly everything started making sense.

That's why I focus on the A. In a sense it absolves me of some self-blame. Like, to cope with it, to tell myself, "Yeah, you ticked her off, but one little argument isn't enough to make her break NC and go sleep with him." Or is it? If it's just another thing to add to the underlying current of resentment and disrespect, maybe. But it's easier to blame OM. Because there are times when I start punishing myself so badly that I just have to go back into denial.

I mean, it sounds as if you are saying you were totally blindsided. As if there had not been previous months you were aware of the A.

Nope, just to clarify. Blindsided in April. In hindsight I know my contributions and I'd gladly list them (they're in the longer post I wrote but saved for later). August 3rd was when there was a sudden dramatic decline in our "reconciliation" process. Which I now know was complete BS. Maybe, maybe not, but I suspect that's when she broke the second NC w/ OM. The next weekend was her trip to DC. She dropped off the dog and checked my hand to see if I was still wearing my ring. Major, major temp check. I had just joined the board and asked her if MC was "pressure" and she said no I think it's helping. Major, major plan B move. I was so blind. Can't know for sure but it would make perfect sense for her to have been with him that weekend. I do recall she was extremely friendly, more so than usual. Again, no idea at the time what she was up to. I just didn't realize any of this until very recently. Really blind and in denial.

I've learned and grown so much just in the past 3 weeks that it's crazy to think what the heck I was doing back then.

Maybe your W had not betrayed you until OM came along, but there was something missing in her MR that caused her to accept or pursue the attention of OM. That's how this wayward mindset works. And, her wayward mindset played a major, major role, before she ever cheated. Know what I mean? A foundation of unforgiveness, unresolved resentment, anger, and other negative issues were previously laid in her heart/mind.

Yup, I'm getting this now. Funny you use the word pursue. At one point I was talking to her about being angry at OM for having taken advantage of her, being a predator, etc. She said something like, "What makes you think HE was the one who was taking advantage of ME?" Ouch.

Don't make it sound as if this affair is like some romantic novel, where they fall hopelessly in love, and live happily ever after. Don't dress it up and don't buy into the lie. What they are feeling is lust and excitement.....b/c they knew it was wrong. Once they are put together and the spouses aren't fighting to keep them, the thrill will die. And here's the thing about the fact they were both M to other people when they chose to sneak around...….there will always a little fear in their relationship that one of them will cheat again. How can two cheaters have a trusting relationship?

I so very much hope this is true. I know it's hard to see when I'm stuck in it. But there's no way I'll ever know if it's a lie, until if and when it ends. I mean, they both start school, their eyes are both opened to the lousy condition of their Ms, they get together. It's just such a sudden and dramatic transition for both, that it seems so much less like a lustful thing and so much more like a calculated move to establish a new and better R with each other. I hope I'm wrong, but that's how it feels. OM and school are now completely intertwined. School represents new opportunities, new independence. OM is new and exciting. Burned is LBH. Left behind. No longer needed.

I know it's not about the A. But the A got in the way, bigtime. And nothing will improve until it's gone. And I have no hope that it's going away any time soon. Bad news for burned.

"Sure, when things are good they're good, but what about when they're bad?" Translation: I can't count on you to be a man when I need you to be. You don't follow through with your commitments. You don't stand up for US when something goes wrong. You only think of YOU. Etc.

This is an example of how she was struggling to respect you as a man, and as her H (who is her protector and leader). So, it sounds like she was trying to tell you what she needed. And listen, Burn, every female has these same needs. It is a natural thing born in women since the beginning of the human race. It's not some flippant complaint she threw in the air. This is a legit need women have in their man......and if he fails to deliver, then she is left emotionally vulnerable.

If she never saw improvement in that area, then she would develop feelings of disrespect, etc. In order to continue staying with a man she really didn't respect, she would have to push all those unresolved issues down into her heart. See what I mean? If MC didn't help to bring about the things she said she needed from you, then those unsettled issues and negative feelings lingered. They didn't go away. After a period of time and there is no evidence of her H trying to make changes, she feels defeated and stops talking to him about it. It takes the hope out of her. It kills her attraction for him, and eventually the intimacy completely stops. I could go on and on, b/c this is such a serious problem in M's today.

I get this now, after reading a couple of books. They really should teach this before people get M. But this is what I meant about being her rock (see below).

Oh, man, if I could just go back in time a year knowing what I know now... But then, this isn't the kind of situation where the W has concerns and she tells them to the H and the H addresses them promptly.

What do you mean?

What I meant here was that in August of 2017, before school started, before the A started, she suggested MC. My stupid response? “That’s only for people who are about to get D anyway.” Wow. Here we are more than a year later.

In other words, I regret that the A had to happen. There were so many better ways to have handled this. We both messed up.

But the A was just a really $hitty thing. And to then sort of drop me on my @ss without closure, and then expect that we can still be friends...with friends like that, no need for enemies.

Closure? Drop you on your @ss without closure? What would that look like with closure? She told you the problem she had with you, and she went to MC...…..plus, you knew months ago about her affair and admitted to "letting some things happen". So, I don't follow you. I'm not saying you should take responsibility for her affair, b/c that is on her. And, I totally agree about not being her friend while she conducts her affair. You sure wouldn't gain any respect points that way.

I forfeited the little respect she had left for me when I took her back without question, didn’t insist on transparency, and told her we could work on a way that she could stay friends with OM. Ugh. Realizations, trying not to let them turn into regrets.

I'd like for her to not have fallen so in love with him that she will never be able to feel the same way about me again

Really? Listen to yourself. So if she had not have fallen quite so deeply in love with OM......and was able to feel the same way about you some day........it would have been okay to have an affair??? Your self esteem must be setting on zero.

Nope, never OK to have an affair. But it is true that I need to build up my self esteem.

This touches on the despair I’m feeling. Because I don’t know if there’s an OM right now. I’m actually aware of another person who could be OM2 but I have no way of knowing and I learned long ago not to bug her about it. It helps ME to think of her as having an OM because then it’s easier to take everything she says with a grain of salt. It would explain why something always seemed “off” in what she was saying. It would explain the sudden changes that really didn’t have much to do with whether or not I was improving. In the grand scheme, it helps me to think that all of the ups and downs had more to do with her “addiction” to him rather than failures on my part.

I know I’ve done plenty of things wrong and I’m not denying those failures. Just that it explains why nothing seemed to stick. Like how somewhere in DR, MWD says, “Hey, maybe you’re doing everything right and it’s still not helping, probably because there’s an OP.” I won’t ever try to claim that I did everything right. I did almost everything wrong. But I would have expected at least SOME movement toward R. There never has been.

So back to the despair. After August 3, it seems like she just gave up completely. Whether OM is back, or if there is OM2, is irrelevant. The “trying” ended abruptly and I got “friend zoned” and she began getting rid of furniture, painting things, changed her IG name to remove my last name, and so forth.

OK, but the timing was interesting. It was right before school picked up again. So one hypothesis is that she DID give up on our M more than she already had, lost the last shred of hope she had, and either “just gave up” or decided to double down on OM to build a new R with him. I have no way of knowing and no way to control any of it. It just plain hurts no matter how I try to dress it up.

You've made several statements that blew me away, but I don't have time to go over every one. But one example was asking if it would still be considered an affair as long as there was a legal document of marriage. Yes, it would. Look, if the affair began during the time of the MR, why would the name change from "affair" to...…...respectfully cheating? As someone once told me, "It would have more decent if you had divorced your H before you started an affair". See, the length of time doesn't determine whether or not it is still an affair. A marriage document makes that call. An affair doesn't get to fade into some less offensive name just b/c it continues. You can wear a tux while you do it, but it's still wrong. Call it what it is.

I keep coming back to that idea about what defines A. I agree with you in terms of the definition. But my heart has this weird feeling that I can’t seem to explain with words. August 31, we essentially had the discussion of, “OK, since we’re done, we’re working toward D, we can see other people.” Again, she was probably already seeing someone, either OM1 or potential OM2, but lying to me that she wasn’t ready to start “dating.” Whatever. Or she wasn’t. No idea. Legally speaking, it’s an A if you’re M and she sees someone else. But emotionally, we’re already D. So in her mind she probably isn’t cheating, just moving on. Solidifying her new R so that when ours is officially done she will be ready to roll. As if we broke up from a non-M relationship and just off we go. Does that make any sense? I’m not trying to defend that mentality, but it’s a fear I have. I brought that on myself.

And yet in our final R talk before I went dark, she said something like, “It’s impossible either way” and “It’s never black-and-white.” Maybe she means I’m still plan B? No idea.

I'm just struggling to understand how to show her that I can be her rock

You mean now.....or after you reconcile? Describe what you see as being "her rock".

This is based on a chapter in Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. To me it means being more like W's father. Calm, strong, sensitive when needed, protective when needed. Always puts family first. Basically a lot of the opposite of what I was doing before. Doesn't pursue, doesn't distance. Just he is there. His W trusts him, trusts that he will stand up for her when she needs him. Trusts that he will never put his needs above hers. Stuff like that. Like I said, just basically exactly the opposite of what I had been doing since 2016.

I’d like to be her rock “after” we reconcile but the way I feel these days I don’t see that happening.

If you made it all the way to the end of this post, here’s what I’m struggling with most today. I went dark. Super dark. And nothing changed. I know I need to be patient quite a bit longer. That’s why I ask about the A. Knowing that she’s still focused on that makes it easier, in a sense, to be patient. Because at least then I know that at some point she might turn around and look back at me and have any feelings whatsoever. The way it feels now, she’s relieved that finally, after months of her telling me she wants me to just go do my own thing and take care of myself, I’m finally doing it.

Too late, probably. But then people jump in and say it’s never too late and you have to be COMPLETELY done before the WW looks back, and people have reconciled even after S and even after D.

It’s just the not knowing that’s hard. I don’t know how she feels. So my assumption is that she doesn’t.

This must be why it feels so wrong. But “it works” and maybe someday I’ll feel better. I mean, I’m starting to feel a little bit better each day. It just makes me sad how much damage has been done.

And. If you made it all the way to THIS end of the post, I hope it's clear that these are things I think about and worry about. I'm the kind of person who likes to understand things before taking action. Which is why I often never take action. Which was one of my W's #1 complaints. And then when I take action I don't follow through. That was another complaint. And on and on. BUT I am sticking with the DB stuff I've implemented. Staying dark although I hate it so very much. Adding GAL activities bit by bit. Doing my 180s mainly for me. Hitting the books hard and feeling like a slightly better person each day.

So it will all be worthwhile in the end.

[burned]

Just remind yourself, Burned. She has to think she's losing you.

And she is.

But she's acting like she's fine with it.

It gets worse before it gets better?

Can't know for sure, just keep DBing I guess.

[burned]

You guys, my NGS is making me want to vomit. But I think I just survived some kind of storm!!

WW texts to ask about the smart thermostats. I was in the process of installing them when she decided she didn't want me to be a part of her home life. Now she needs them to work because it's cold.

So she texts, and I respond reasonably cordially, but then feel myself being dragged into helping her solve a problem that isn't really my concern anymore. She says she spent 2 hours on the phone with tech support. NGS is on fire! Feeling like I should say, "Sorry, W, it's all my fault because I didn't get them to work and it's my responsibility to fix it now that it's suddenly a problem for you!"

Nope.

So I pull back. I say, well, just re-install the old thermostats, those always worked before. She says, yeah, that's what [BIL] said to do, too. But I don't know how to do it, and I don't want to pay to hire someone because blah blah blah poor me I don't have any money blah blah blah. So I say, "Oh." And let it hang.

So then she says she's frustrated. Typical response would be, "I'm sorry you're frustrated. Here, let me do it for you." Nope! I don't respond. A few minutes later she says, "Am I overstepping a boundary by asking for help?"

Dun dun dunnnnnnnn. Challenge accepted!

I catch myself thinking, "Here's a great opportunity to show her how helpful I am! I'll help her with her stupid thermostats so that she won't be mad at me and leave me! Maybe she'll even be so thankful that she'll invite me over for some beer and sex!" I literally almost said, "No, it's fine to ask for help, but at the moment I'm busy." I didn't say that, because in my head I pictured a row of people with their DB hats on, carrying 2x4s and getting ready to smack me.

So I thought to myself, what would my DB buddies tell me to say, so that I don't get smacked? And I went with the minimalist approach.

I replied only: "yes."

She said "thank you." And then she went on to ask me more questions!

I decided to let her figure it out for herself, but I gave her the username and password to our internet service provider in case she wanted to do what tech support had suggested, fiddle with firewall settings or something. Most certainly not worth the trouble to even look at. Hey, I'm a tech nerd and I couldn't get that thermostat to work. It was probably a dud. If it was a firewall issue, I would have had it working before I left. Did I tell her any of that? Did I help her solve her suddenly important problem by saving her the trouble of another 2 hours trying to figure out firewall settings on a router? Might take me 5 minutes but that's if I gave a hoot. Sorry, W, you're on your own now. Best of luck.

She asked another question and I just thought to myself, really? I just left it there. And next thing you know she said, "never mind, I'll figure it out." I can just see the look on her face, the way she gets huffy and expects me to do it. Not anymore, dear W.

So that's probably the last time I'll hear from her until D proceedings, hehe. But I think maybe I did OK at not taking the bait? Part of me thinks I missed an opportunity to "create a positive experience" but I guess I'm learning that showing her that I'm not afraid of her manipulation is more important in the long run.

---

Edit: seriously, my dear, call your stupid BIL and ask him to fix it!

And I can hear her thinking, "See, you buy things and never follow through on the projects you start, this is why I left you." Well, I can't nice her back.

[burned]

Upon further review, I think I can identify several things she tried to play off of how I would usually react:

1. Asking nicely
2. Saying "Thank you for walking me through this" after I was initially a little bit too helpful
3. The attitude of, "this isn't something I'm good at, but you are, so do it for me"
4. Saying "I don't know how" a couple of different times
5. Saying she doesn't want to spend the little money she has (you mean ol' H, you won't let me have what I want and you're controlling by making me have to spend the money I essentially stole from you by opening an account in my own name and depositing a check from a loan that technically belongs to both of us)
6. "I'm frustrated" (fix it for me so that I stop being angry)
7. Not only pushing against a boundary but actually confronting me about it. Like, putting her face in my face, in a sense
8. "stomping off" in a huff (I assume)

Poor victim. If only I had been a better husband, you wouldn't have had to deal with this. Nobody should have to put up with having to actually figure out how to solve a home maintenance problem. I'm such a jerk for not helping you after you slept with someone else.

Starting to realize all of the things I used to do for you that I'm not doing anymore? Hmm...

Who IS this woman? And why did I never see this baloney for what it is?

[hoosjim]

If you made it all the way to the end of this post, here’s what I’m struggling with most today. I went dark. Super dark. And nothing changed. I know I need to be patient quite a bit longer. That’s why I ask about the A. Knowing that she’s still focused on that makes it easier, in a sense, to be patient. Because at least then I know that at some point she might turn around and look back at me and have any feelings whatsoever. The way it feels now, she’s relieved that finally, after months of her telling me she wants me to just go do my own thing and take care of myself, I’m finally doing it.

B, what would you do if you knew the A was over? Would it make a difference? Or what if she had moved on to OM2... and OM3, etc.... and then those affairs ended. Would that change how you feel? Or does it even matter? My point is, as is the point being made by several others here, that you are still way way way too focused on and tied up in and what she is thinking and doing and whether or not she will come back to you and how you can make that happen. But....(and, yes, i am shouting here): WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR YOU! I read alot on her from you wondering what she is thinking, doing, temp-checking, etc, but almost nothing about what you are doing to improve yourself, to make a better life for you, to make you the kind of person that OAFWL. Burned, you have got to get out and do those things. Otherwise, nothing will ever change for you, or with your dynamics WRT your W, and whatever relationship you ultimately end up in will be unfulfilling and likely end up the very same way. So... get out there! Forget about her! You, burned, have got a lot to offer, but you need to open up and let that man you can be who is lurking down deep inside of you, and indeed inside all men... OUT INTO THE OPEN. So many many things get better when you start taking your GALs seriously for YOU... and not as a tool to get your WW back.

Too late, probably. But then people jump in and say it’s never too late and you have to be COMPLETELY done before the WW looks back, and people have reconciled even after S and even after D.

I wonder if anybody who has successfully reconciled ever realizes this fully until it happens to them. I talk a pretty good game, but, in the final analysis, alot of what i was doing as i went along i was still trying to "Get my W to come back". Most of my GALs were genuine, and really, really helped me through my rough patches (Fitness, Faith, and Friends... the 3 "F's.. were my foundational GALs), but in interactions with W, and all that went with that, I still was trying to get her back. It was only when i completely threw in the towel... and i was done, REALLY done... that she got the shock the needed to finally cut that last cord with OM and to beg me to come back. And, even then, i almost didn't. If not for our MC (Who i honestly think is probably the best MC in the world but who is strangely not nearly as in demand as i would expect for someone so good-- prolly her open Christianity which puts some people off, but that's a whole 'nother discussion), whose presence in our lives i consider to be one of the biggest blessings from God i have ever received, I don't think we would have reconciled. Even in brokering our reconcilliation, however, her avowed opinion was: "You all were never, ever, ever going to get to this point (fully committed to the MR and reconcilliation) until you got to the point where you were done and walking away without looking back. She had to understand that you were done, gone, finished." And I say this not because i think this is a concept you should embrace because it "might win her back", but because it is concept you should embrace as being the best gaurantor of your happiness and well-bing going forward... whatever your W ultimately does or decides to do.

You don't have to "give up hope" of a reconciliation completely, but you do have to completely disassociate and disconnect (or detach) your future happiness from such an outcome and from the hope therefor. It is a very, very, very difficult tightrope to walk...and many (if not most) do not achieve the requisite level of detachment unless and until they completely throw in the towel, turn their back, and walk away.

[neffer]

Print this ^^^^^ B

HJ is a head shooter!

Don’t fear of moving forward. Free yourself.

[hoosjim]

It was only when i completely threw in the towel... and i was done, REALLY done... that she got the shock the needed to finally cut that last cord with OM and to beg me to come back.

...And I'd like to add something to this because i think that it is very, very important. Not only did that seminal moment deliver the necessary shock to my W, but it also freed me. Yes, freed me, completely. As i was walking around town later that day, and also living out of my car and hotels in the days that followed (I had told her that i didn't want to further traumatize our Tourrettic teenager, but that i wanted her out by the end of the month and, in the interim, i didn't want to see, hear, or even think about her), i was, in a sense, very sad-- my marriage as i had known it was, to my mind, over. But, at the same time, i felt this wonderful sense of freedom... from her, from OM, from the whole situation. I did briefly contemplate violence against OM, but this settled down fairly rapidly and i had none of the deep, oppressive, hopeless gloom that had attended the original BD over a year prior. By walking away, by completely detaching myself, i had given myself the freedom to be my own man, fully.

[AnotherStander]

Well said Jim. Valuable input there. Definitely can't hope to get them back until we can 100% let them go. Simple enough concept but enormously difficult to implement.

[joejoe1]

B,

What Jim said. That's some really really good advice. Once you drop the rope, trust me, not only will you feel it so will your WW. It takes time and trying over and over again, but the same scenario plays out on here over and over. The LBS gets fed the F up and says, NO MORE. I AM DONE and SICK and TIRED of feeling this way and tired of your disrespect. You are free to do what you want, choose what and who you want, but I'm done. Once you open that bird cage, the bird wont be the only one getting freedom.