Burned is still here. This is thread 6.

[MoveFrwd]

Well said Jim. Valuable input there. Definitely can't hope to get them back until we can 100% let them go. Simple enough concept but enormously difficult to implement.

Here's where I'm struggling. I've read and re-read the pursuer/distancer chapter in The Solo Partner and I just can't figure out what the heck is going on. It's like the harder I TRY to 100% let her go, the more she pulls me back in. Like, not even with kindness, just even baiting me like this.

I can't get away no matter how hard I try. If I give her what she wants, I'm a pushover. If I don't, she fights. Either way I lose.

What is this garbage?

Why is “fighting” losing?

Also, you have to stop judging your victories based on how SHE behaves. Every day you get out of bed is a success. Every day you eat healthy is a success. Every day you do something for you and your independence is a success. Focus on the positives.

How are you doing on putting together your goal list?

[hoosjim]

As a friend of mine is fond of saying: I woke up on the right side of the grass today.

[burned]

New day, new attitude. Re-reading my threads start-to-finish. Taking notes so I don't keep repeating and repeating.

Why is “fighting” losing?

Do you mean her fighting, or mine?

Her fighting is sort of what I was told to expect as I drop the pursuit and change the dynamics.

My fighting is just dropping the pursuit, fighting FOR the M. And, more importantly, fighting FOR ME, doing what's right FOR ME.

Also, you have to stop judging your victories based on how SHE behaves. Every day you get out of bed is a success. Every day you eat healthy is a success. Every day you do something for you and your independence is a success. Focus on the positives.

Well, I'm glad your standards are as low as mine have been lately. And:

How are you doing on putting together your goal list?

Need to work on that. I have a list in my notebook, essentially what I posted the other day, but I'm trying to boil it down to the common themes. I'm seeing 3 major areas:

1. taking ownership of my life and responsibilities
2. increasing confidence and self-respect
3. increasing positivity

For #1, it has been little things you suggested before: did the dishes every night, made the bed every morning.

For #2, this week I got stuck thinking that the way to do this was through my interactions with W. Having reviewed my study materials (heh), I can see quite clearly that that's just a terrible approach. It will be BY increasing my self-confidence and self-respect, via other means, that my interactions with W will improve on their own. Hey, does that sound like something you mentioned on or around August 13th? Then Steve said it. Then Hoosjim said it. Yeah.

So now that I am a bit more settled in my new apartment, this week I will start over with GAL. I've failed so badly at that it's not even funny. That is a growth opportunity that has been staring me in the face for months.

For #3, see the previous paragraph. It's about positive reframes. I have a few pages in my notebook: one thing I accomplished today, one thing good that happened today, one thing I did for myself today. And every night I write something down. One of the days the only thing positive was that I made the bed. Good enough! And yeah, I'm on the right side of the grass.

OK, time to detach from this laptop.

[burned]

What a way to spend a Saturday night. I decided to do the "money fight" with WW via text.

The majority of it was me explaining to her that she won't be able to stay in the house. She really had no idea. But she does now, now that I explained it to her. She didn't flinch, not once.

When I thought it was over, she comes back with, "My brother got his W to sign a quit claim."

I said, "OK, so what do you propose?"

She said, "Well, if we can agree on things, we don't even need a mediator. What do you think?"

I said, "I think divorce is not the solution to our problems, but I won't stand in your way if that's what you feel you need to do."

She said, "What do you think is the solution?"

I said, "You know how I feel about this."

So she said, just flat out, "Thank you for discussing this with me. It helps. I hope you have a good night." The end.

I mean, what exactly do I make of this? Really, I need an outside observer's perspective. Did she just essentially taunt me, dare me to D her, and then drop the mic when I refused to play along?

[burned]

I guess all I can say in my defense is that I tried to focus on what’s right for me, I didn’t avoid conflict, I didn’t pursue, I didn’t use any of this as a way to manipulate her. All I did was to not bend over and give her exactly what she wants...I mean correct me if I’m wrong but I feel like I did a pretty good job, and she basically flipped out. She even managed to throw in something about hiring someone to fix the thermostat and paying for it with the shared account. Is it me or does that feel vindictive?

I have to be honest, I’m starting to feel like I’m not the bad guy here.

I don’t understand how a month ago we’re at “You know, we could be friends, it’s not all black-and-white.” Then I stop playing along. Now this.

Either things heated up with OM and she thinks that’s gonna be the answer.

Or I’m finally seeing her true colors.

Either way, I’ve just about had it. I’ve been pretty decent to her and this is what I get? Message received.

[equalzr]

I think your doing the right thing. I was just making a comment earlier about my sitch, and i had noted that when i stopped the pursuit my W took the gloves off and stopped pretending to "play nice". It seems that they will nice you through the process as long as you shut up and give them what they want.

It seems to take guys like us a long time to "get the message" unfortunately. Your W wants you to play by a set of rules that she doesnt feel the need to abide by herself.

[ovrrnbw]

When she asked what you thought the solution was, you should have answered truthfully. Don't get me wrong, you probably didn't have to push the conversation in this direction, but since you did you could have stared down the barrel and said "W, the solution in marriage is to be true to our vows and get to work fixing this". Instead, you brought up the fact that she already knew. If she already knew, then why have the convo? Why decide to fight with WW on a perfectly good Saturday night when you should be busy?

And why are you texting about a D?!?! It's the biggest, or one of the biggest, events in your life! You're going to hash it out via text?

You didn't avoid conflict, no...you started conflict on a Saturday evening. Why?

I don’t understand how a month ago we’re at “You know, we could be friends, it’s not all black-and-white.” Then I stop playing along. Now this.

Both you and her will have ups and downs, so you do your best to detach and minimize yours.

So this isn't to say that you aren't finding yourself and progressing, but sometimes we really just are hurt and angry and we don't need to take that out on someone. Have a good night burned, find something to make yourself happy for the evening and don't dwell on the negative.

[hoosjim]

Two quick things:

1) Yes, when she stops having everything "her way", the S will prolly really HTF. It is the way of things with Waywards. I saw this firsthand with my best friend, whose WW ran roughshod over him. Eventually he got tired of being walked on and toughened up... much too late to save his MR, but still in time to not get totally taken to the cleaners in the D. But boy oh boy did her demeanor change once he stopped giving her everything she wanted. Almost a complete 180 from her saying "He's just being amazing, etc etc" to total hate, anger and vitriol. It''s part of the "waking up and coming back to reality" process that they have to go through if they are ever to leave waywardness behind. You also see it in WW's who start noticing their H's 180s and GAL's... the initial response almost always being anger "Why didn't you ever do that when we were together" or "yuou must be doing this just to win me back"... both angry responses because you are not playing along with and fulfilling the narrative that you are/were a terrible spouse.

2) Helpful suggestion: Your goals are too broad. You are clearly a "dreamer", as am I. You tend to identify big, broad, hard to pin down to specifics goals like "taking ownership of my life". What does that even mean? If you read MWD's the DR book, she talks some about this. It's fine to have broad philosophical paradigms underpinning your goals, but your GAL/180/self-improvement goals should be very specific, easy to confirm successful completion of, etc. You are thus more accountable to yourself and your goals and also less prone to get discouraged when you dont, all at once, "Take more ownership of your life." Example: Instead of "Increasing positivity" you could have 1) Smile and say "hi" to at least one stranger each day 2) Encorage a friend or family member who is going through a difficult time or day 3) Try something new... something you are worried you might fail at. And these are probably bad examples, but you get the idea: Specific, narrow in scope, limited, easy to track and confirm completion.

[burned]

It seems that they will nice you through the process as long as you shut up and give them what they want.

Yeah and I was warned about this but it's super uncomfortable.

When she asked what you thought the solution was, you should have answered truthfully. Don't get me wrong, you probably didn't have to push the conversation in this direction, but since you did you could have stared down the barrel and said "W, the solution in marriage is to be true to our vows and get to work fixing this". Instead, you brought up the fact that she already knew. If she already knew, then why have the convo? Why decide to fight with WW on a perfectly good Saturday night when you should be busy?

Yeah, when I got the "what do you think is the solution" I thought very carefully about what to say. I went with the standard. It backfired. And guess who's getting really good at boundaries: W. She's always a few steps ahead of me. Some people go as far as saying that she is dominant and gets a kick out of pushing me around. This is proof.

And why are you texting about a D?!?! It's the biggest, or one of the biggest, events in your life! You're going to hash it out via text?

Haven't seen her in person in a month. Pretty much all of our communications since S (June) have been by text. It's the least bad alternative? I realized that I don't do well with her face-to-face at the moment because I get super tense and sad and she sees it, and it makes it hard for me to be objective. Also that since people started using the term "manipulative" I've started to notice more of those kinds of patterns, and in order for me to consider them in the moment, I have to stop and think. Texting makes that possible. Side note, For the first two years after we met, when she was pursuing me and I was ambivalent, we talked mostly by AIM (back in the early 2000s). Did I ever claim that our relationship was perfect? I hope not. But I woke up at 3 this morning thinking about your comment and it made me realize: when I take a step back and look at it from an outsider's perspective, things are MUCH worse than I was telling myself they are.

You didn't avoid conflict, no...you started conflict on a Saturday evening. Why?

Spinning, probably. Making poor use of the strategies I'm learning here. And proving her point that I have terrible social skills.

I knew it would be a fight. I kept my cool for most of it. She is angry about money because she is afraid. I think if she had her own income she would have walked out long ago. I was her plan B because I foot the bills. She didn't want me as a husband, but she wanted me as a bank account. I remember some time after BD I asked her, "How long did you think you could keep that going without me knowing?" And she said, "I sort of thought I could last the whole school year or even the whole 4 years of school." Ick.

So a combination of, "You need to take your respect back" plus having told her yesterday that we would talk about it, I decided to bite the bullet and deal with it. Be a leader. Take the initiative. Etc. Lunch with my parents who said, hey, get the ball rolling, she can back down at any time but clearly she isn't going to do the deed so you need to. Anti-DB, I know. I'm just getting way too much input from way too many people, and my NGS (which is nowhere near gone) makes me want to try to accommodate all opinions. Bad idea.

Both you and her will have ups and downs, so you do your best to detach and minimize yours.

I have my ups and downs. I don't know that she does. I have no data to work with. But in my mind there have been nothing but downs, one after the other, since S. Oh, with the exception of the week and a half when she was NC w/ OM and suddenly was VERY nice to me. That ended abruptly and nothing has been the same since.

The majority of the downs have occurred in the last 2-3 weeks since I went dark. Reactions to her loss of control, maybe. I spent the whole night worrying that I just wrecked things beyond repair. But no! Things were already wrecked. All I'm doing is dealing with the aspects of reality that she was ignoring. She wants to not be with me. I want to not be financially responsible for the "cashier next door." It has to happen, and if I don't do it nobody will.

Or, after last night, she might. I know now that she's asking her brother for advice. He's ex-military (EOD), super alpha type-A blah blah and the kind of guy that is probably thinking, "You hurt my sister's feelings, I'ma go down there and beat you." He recently got D from his wife after she cheated on him while he was deployed.

It's getting ugly. And now I'm feeling like the guy who is "being a jerk" by not relenting to all of her demands. And she's playing the whole "I'm not being unreasonable, I just need enough to survive" and then acting offended when I explain to her that it's not that simple. Then I say I need a mediator so that I don't get taken advantage of, and she says "Oh is that necessary, can't we just write up a cute little letter and sign it and hand it to the judge." She was always this naive, but now I'm wondering if she's being manipulative.

And the backdrop of all of this. What I thought was pretty real love, has all come down to a negotiation about money so that she can "more freely skrunk with OM" in the words of Hoosjim.

So this isn't to say that you aren't finding yourself and progressing, but sometimes we really just are hurt and angry and we don't need to take that out on someone. Have a good night burned, find something to make yourself happy for the evening and don't dwell on the negative.

Torn here, O. I really like your attitude and I wish I could be more helpful to other people. I';m just super stuck in my own pain. So I appreciate the encouragement. AND I find myself reacting negatively to that statement, kind of, because I don't entirely feel that I was taking anything out on her. I was trying to demonstrate self-respect and respect for her by initiating a discussion that she asked to have. But as I'm writing this I realize that if I'm having a strong reaction to the way you phrased that (taking it out on someone) then it probably means that you hit a nerve, meaning that there's something in me that needs to be addressed related to that. So I'm not offended or anything, in fact I'm glad you said that because it is helping me reflect on my actions, what I could have done, what I could do better.

---

It was a bad night, after a sort of bad day. Emotions are high. We are progressing toward a point of no return. Doesn't help that I had a dream about the dog and realize that I miss the dog almost more than I miss W. At least the dog doesn't mess with my head.

When it comes to the DB principle of "try something different and see if it works," this does't seem to be working. Unfortunately "working" has many definitions. Is it bringing us closer together, today? Nope. Will it improve my chances of R someday? No idea, but that';s what I'm told. Does it make me feel better about myself? Yes and no. It makes me realize that I don't feel very good about myself when I worry that I've done something wrong, when I've done something to make someone angry. NGS and FOO. Gotta work on it.

It''s part of the "waking up and coming back to reality" process that they have to go through if they are ever to leave waywardness behind. You also see it in WW's who start noticing their H's 180s and GAL's... the initial response almost always being anger "Why didn't you ever do that when we were together" or "yuou must be doing this just to win me back"... both angry responses because you are not playing along with and fulfilling the narrative that you are/were a terrible spouse.

I'd be interested to hear more thoughts about "it gets worse before it gets better" and "they react poorly when they start losing control but it's because they are worried" and so forth.

[burned]

Your W wants you to play by a set of rules that she doesnt feel the need to abide by herself.

This just made me realize something. All the “niceness” I was getting. “Hope you have a nice day” and packing things and so forth. It’s all give-to-get. She plays nice, then expects me to. But then when I DON’T, she gets ticked off and gets to play the whole “I’m being nice to him but he’s being a jerk” card.

The last “Hope you have a good night” was 100% sarcastic.

Struggling with NGS today because 1) worrying that I did some serious damage with that convo last night and 2) it was really cold last night, I should have helped her fix the thermostats, worrying that I did some damage there as well.

Basically I worry that she’s angry at me for being uncooperative. As if that would change her steady march toward D.

Reading through some threads about sitches that are further along than mine. Looks like people hit a low around 4-6 months after BD, and I’m encouraged to see that they usually seem to feel a lot better after a year. So I guess I can start looking forward to better times, assuming I start putting in the work.