Read through Sandi's threads. And Steve usually chimes in on this specific issue. Basically, you can't 180 on those because it's a "new paradigm" or you missed the boat. She doesn't want to see those changes now. She says those are her concerns, but she has lost attraction to you and now she perceives those attempts as either manipulative or weak. So step 1 is regain her attraction by being a strong, desirable man. Those 180s come later, if/when there's R and MC.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.
W,
The main reason we end up here is because we don't understand woman and they don't understand us. As men we think using logic and reason. If I get divorced I will lose half the time with my kids, half my assets, if I ever get married again it will be a blended family which will be very hard and stressful.
A woman thinks with her emotions. I am not happy right now, the only way I can be happy is if I get rid of W. He is preventing me from my happiness. It has to be him what else could it be?
Now on the plus side when you think with logic that never changes. However, when you think with emotions that changes. How you feel today is not necessarily how you are going to feel in the future.
The point is, don't hold your breath that she is going to be thinking logically anytime soon. Women are just not built that way. That is why woman file for D 80% of the time.
So true. I will add that along with your main reason we end up here is that logic and reason aren't working with this emotional creature and I have no where else to turn. The alternative is insanity (doing the same things over and over again expecting a different result). Which always amazes me when a guy ends up here, saying "nothing I am doing (logic and reasoN) are working". And then they spend the next few weeks bucking everything they are learning about DBing.
Arthur Conan Doyle said: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Logic and reason in our sitches are impossible. That leaves DBing to remain, which though improbable is the only way forward.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Read through Sandi's threads. And Steve usually chimes in on this specific issue. Basically, you can't 180 on those because it's a "new paradigm" or you missed the boat. She doesn't want to see those changes now. She says those are her concerns, but she has lost attraction to you and now she perceives those attempts as either manipulative or weak. So step 1 is regain her attraction by being a strong, desirable man. Those 180s come later, if/when there's R and MC.
Burned, well said. This nails it. You 180 for yourself, not to change her mind. She will see through it every time.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
In regards to this you have to realize is just because she says this doesn't mean it is necessarily true. The only thing you can do in regards to this is to validate her feelings.
Trust me the last thing she wants right now is an emotional connection with you.
Read through Sandi's threads. And Steve usually chimes in on this specific issue. Basically, you can't 180 on those because it's a "new paradigm" or you missed the boat. She doesn't want to see those changes now. She says those are her concerns, but she has lost attraction to you and now she perceives those attempts as either manipulative or weak. So step 1 is regain her attraction by being a strong, desirable man. Those 180s come later, if/when there's R and MC.
Burned, well said. This nails it. You 180 for yourself, not to change her mind. She will see through it every time.
Steve I'm sure I plagiarized that directly from something you wrote sometime in August!
And for members of the audience, after he said that, I spent another month or two trying to use "logic and reason" as an excuse to not do what was recommended. Why? Out of fear.
So Wanted1, throw logic and reason out the window and start thinking like a WW: "I do what I want when I want because I feel like it!"
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
This kind of falls in line with what burned stated, but I think I provided a decent amount of 180ing (or however you want to state it) during that joint session yesterday. I kept validating what she said and although a couple times I said, "I understand how it came off that way...." or "I understand how it could feel that way but those were not my intentions at all." I think I handled it far better than I would have in the past which before would have been me trying to justify my side or justify my feelings and what I meant. Maybe that got her wheels turning, I don't know. But if I surprised myself a little bit I can't help but think maybe I surprised her as well.
My plan is to do the exact same thing in the next session which hasn't been scheduled yet.
Like I said before, up until last night this "limbo" as been absolutely killing me and giving me great anxiety. I have since realized that this "limbo" has given me the advantage of time. Time to show her that the changes I'm making for myself are sincere, honest and will stick moving forward. I completely understand that she can't view them as honest yet. It's only been a month. I can't expect her to move past the 7+ years or however long she is referring to just because I've changed for only 4 weeks. I need this time to prove to her that my changes aren't just "to get her back."
I'm also hoping that since she pretty much bottom-lined it for everyone in the session yesterday that she's still leaning toward D and "sees no point in working it out" that if I keep up with my changes moving forward she will realize that I'm doing them for me. Now that she's told me she feels as though there is little chance at R, at this point, and I stop with my changes it will be pretty obvious I was doing them for her. If she sees me continuing to make the changes in the face of a possible D, maybe that will help her realize that they are true and not just for her and she can believe in them. I'm going to keep trying to look at it from that point of view.
M: 34 W:34 D:7 D:6 S:3
M: 9.5 years T: 12
OM found & BD (by me): 9/19/18 IHS begins W informs me she's moving out: 11/28/18 W files: 12/21/18 D Final: 2/25/19
"I understand how it came off that way...." or "I understand how it could feel that way but those were not my intentions at all."
The word "YOU" needs to be in there twice as much, no? Wondering what other people think. But saying, "I understand why YOU felt that way" puts the focus on her, not just "I" or "it" which is just like saying "I" without saying it.
Plus, beware of the word "but." That negates everything you said before the "but." Translation: "I understand how it could feel that way" (great! he gets it!) "but those were not my intentions at all." (bummer, it's still about HIM and not me, and he thinks his intentions justify how MY feelings changed). And remember that her perception/feelings is her reality. So when you say "but" you're saying she's wrong. Backfires.
As for seeing no point in working it out, my experience was that MC didn't change that. It gave her more opportunities to see me not really changing very quickly, and flailing and trying to adapt the changes based on her responses. It was obvious to a child that I was just trying to "win her back." It gave her the right to say "we tried." And it gave me false hope, like I said.
Do the kind of 180 that makes your stomach churn. Show her that you're a man who values himself enough to take a stand for what HE wants. "I'm sorry, W, I can't participate in joint therapy or MC at this time. The opinion from psychologists and counseling professionals is that MC doesn't work unless both parties are invested in R. I would be happy to try this again if or when you're ready to make that kind of commitment."
Or let her drag you around and make it worse.
Last edited by burned; 10/16/1805:11 PM.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
If she sees me continuing to make the changes in the face of a possible D, maybe that will help her realize that they are true and not just for her and she can believe in them. I'm going to keep trying to look at it from that point of view.
You see W, here is the rub. This statement alone tells us that these changes are for her. Women have a sixth sense in regards to this and she will know. It is only when you have dropped the rope and moved on and are actually making changes for yourself will she turn around and look back.
You have a journey of 1,000 mikes ahead of you and the only way to get there is to take it one step at a time.
too much hope: DBing for her very little hope: DBing for you no hope: filing
Posted somewhere by AnotherStander (paraphrased):
First we start DBing to get a response from her. Then we start DBing for us but we keep looking over our shoulder to see if it is affecting her. Then we finally get to DBing for ourselves without thinking about how it affects her. The sooner you get to that 3rd kind of DBing, the better.
Steve again: Let her go to get her back.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
