Unsure what's next, what to do.....

[Ready2Change]

Her response: "I don't know how to answer that. I've never once said to myself "I'm done listening to what he has to say and my mind is made up." That's why I've wanted us to take our time and act out of wisdom and not emotion. Do some self discovery and figure out why we've been where we were and evaluate how to move forward. I've been receiving and thinking deeply about everything you've said to me."

Your wife sounds wise.

Set her free. Keep working on yourself. Do not temp check her.

[MoveFrwd]

I stumbled today and I'm ready for the 2x4s that come flying at me....

I texted this to my W today: "Is your mind completely made up? 100%"

Her response: "I don't know how to answer that. I've never once said to myself "I'm done listening to what he has to say and my mind is made up." That's why I've wanted us to take our time and act out of wisdom and not emotion. Do some self discovery and figure out why we've been where we were and evaluate how to move forward. I've been receiving and thinking deeply about everything you've said to me."

I then responded with a "Thank you so much."

So, can I get some input on how I should take this? Or if I should even believe it?

I have my first phone call with a DB coach tomorrow afternoon. So, I'm excited for that.

I don’t understand why you would even ask that. Next time, post those questions here. What does it even mean? How does what YOU need to do change if she says “yes”, “no”, “iguana” or any of what she actually said? Furthermore, the saying round here is “don’t believe anything she says”...so then just because she said “good” words, what can you even take from it.

Let me ask you - what was your GOAL in asking this question?

[LH19]

W,

You essentially thanked her for considering not divorcing you after she cheated on you 3 times. WTF???????

What kind of value for yourself are you communicating to her? Hi or low?

Look, I am not saying you shouldn't giver her another chance at some point. She has some serious work to do first.

Then she needs to earn another chance with you. It's the only way it works out long-term.

[Wanted1]

What she threw out in the joint session really hit home with me. I think she over exaggerated A LOT of what she infers by my inactions, actions and words to her. Basically everything I do or say she takes the exact opposite of what I meant or intended which was so bizarre. The whole premises of what she said throughout the entire session was essentially that I controlled or manipulated her feelings throughout the entire R, she wasn't allowed to be 'herself' and I didn't support anything she does, etc. Something that was a complete surprise to me. I had no clue that was the case or that's how she felt. I tend to think a lot of it was a rewriting of our history but at the same time I understand how she could have felt that way and it makes sense looking back on it, just not to the extreme amounts she tried to portray.

That brings this question up that I am going to ask my IC next week but will also pose to you all: How much of feeling as though your thoughts and feelings are being controlled and manipulated by your S falls on you vs. the spouse that's doing the 'controlling'? She VERY rarely would say 'well I don't see it that way' or 'this is how I feel about xxx'. How can I know that her thoughts and feelings are different than mine when they aren't expressed? The more I think about it, some of that needs to fall on her for not expressing those to me to make me aware that she thought differently about something. Now, I empathize with her presumed response that she felt scared or anxious to share her thoughts but at some point she probably needed to be true to herself and standup for what she thought or felt. Which, ironically, is what I've wanted from her for a long time. That's the past though. Neither of us can change that and I think she's working through how to 'be herself' right now which is what gives her great pause it trying to work through all of this and work on our M.

Although I didn't agree with everything she said and she overly exaggerated a lot of it, I do see her point. I wasn't there for her emotionally. I wanted to be in the worst way but when she shuts down my mentality was she needed to come to me. It was 'her problem.' I didn't look inwardly and realize I was probably a major part of our emotional disconnect and broken communication.

I think those thoughts and feelings and my inability to look inward were probably overshadowed by the betrayals. As you all know, its hard to forgive you W for betraying you by having and A. Even harder when you (I) are too stubborn to realize that we should have gotten help with our M through MC or some other avenue after the first time instead of kind of sweeping it under the rug and trying to work through it all on your own which is exactly what I did/we did. I had never been to any type of counseling or therapy until a month ago. Betrayals like that nuke your self-confidence as you all know. I've tried to express that to her and have told her its hard for her to understand being in my shoes because I think you have to experience it to really understand what it feels like. And in my situation, rather than look at 'What can WE do to fix our M' I always had the opinion that she was the broken one and she was the one that needed fixed since she was the one that betrayed me. Totally ignorant, I know. It never occurred to me previously that she was reaching out to these OM for something I wasn't giving her - an emotional connection. When you couple that with the exterior validation she seeks because of the past sexual abuse in her life it's a recipe for disaster. I'm not trying to defend her actions. They were despicable and there are no excuses whatsoever to cheat. BUT, I do empathize now with how they took place. The exterior validation was something her therapist brought up to her that can be a cause of sexual abuse. She is also an Enneagram Type 3, which it's description refers to needing exterior validation. (If you haven't heard of the Enneagram Test before, google it, it's pretty interesting)

So, in the end, I think everyone sees their situation as 'different' and I guess everyone's is different. Lots of similarities, obviously, but just as much different as they are similar too. Maybe I'm wrong, and somebody can give give it to me straight if I'm not thinking logically about this, but since she really hasn't given me a BD yet, I'm not sure if DBing is effective, at this stage of my situation, since my W hasn't told me point blank 'I want out.' When the techniques associated with DBing are in direct contrast to what my 180s should be, I'm not sure if I'm at a point where I should be implementing them yet. Not all of them at least. After the conversation yesterday, I haven't brought up the R and don't plan to. I'm going to go with the old adage 'actions speak louder than words,' especially if I take her at her word that she hasn't made up her mind definitively. I will say it "appears" as though she's reaching out to me more just in the past 24 hours since the conversation. Maybe that's me over analyzing, which very well could me. Sort of wishful thinking. That could definitely be the case. I will say, after reading what she said, it's helped my positive attitude immensely and before I feel I was implementing the positive attitude whenever she is around pretty well. I have my first DB coach phone call today so I'm anxious to see what he has to say on it all.

[SteveLW]

That brings this question up that I am going to ask my IC next week but will also pose to you all: How much of feeling as though your thoughts and feelings are being controlled and manipulated by your S falls on you vs. the spouse that's doing the 'controlling'? She VERY rarely would say 'well I don't see it that way' or 'this is how I feel about xxx'. How can I know that her thoughts and feelings are different than mine when they aren't expressed? The more I think about it, some of that needs to fall on her for not expressing those to me to make me aware that she thought differently about something. Now, I empathize with her presumed response that she felt scared or anxious to share her thoughts but at some point she probably needed to be true to herself and standup for what she thought or felt. Which, ironically, is what I've wanted from her for a long time. That's the past though. Neither of us can change that and I think she's working through how to 'be herself' right now which is what gives her great pause it trying to work through all of this and work on our M.

I love that you realize you can't change the past. The problem is that you spend most of this paragraph concerned about something you can't control. Her and her thoughts. So forget that. Double-down on controlling yourself. Worrying about what she thinks and feels is a cheeseless tunnel. Don't spend energy on that. Allowing someone to control you is on YOU. Because again you can't control the other person. Ironically, we sometimes forget that they can't control us....unless we allow it. So don't.

Stop obsessing about how to fix her....fix yourself.

So, in the end, I think everyone sees their situation as 'different' and I guess everyone's is different. Lots of similarities, obviously, but just as much different as they are similar too. Maybe I'm wrong, and somebody can give give it to me straight if I'm not thinking logically about this, but since she really hasn't given me a BD yet, I'm not sure if DBing is effective, at this stage of my situation, since my W hasn't told me point blank 'I want out.' When the techniques associated with DBing are in direct contrast to what my 180s should be, I'm not sure if I'm at a point where I should be implementing them yet. Not all of them at least. After the conversation yesterday, I haven't brought up the R and don't plan to. I'm going to go with the old adage 'actions speak louder than words,' especially if I take her at her word that she hasn't made up her mind definitively. I will say it "appears" as though she's reaching out to me more just in the past 24 hours since the conversation. Maybe that's me over analyzing, which very well could me. Sort of wishful thinking. That could definitely be the case. I will say, after reading what she said, it's helped my positive attitude immensely and before I feel I was implementing the positive attitude whenever she is around pretty well. I have my first DB coach phone call today so I'm anxious to see what he has to say on it all.

Yes, most people think their sitch is unique. What is similar about all of them is they think that also means DBing can't work. But here is the question for you: what is the alternative?

See you really only have two choices. Pursue and pressure. Or DB: Let her go, GAL,180 where you know you made mistakes, detach, and be the H only a fool would leave.

Do you know how many sitches pursuit and pressure works in? It is a curve approaching 0. DBing is no guarantee, but you have exponentially better odds DBing over pursuit and pressure.

And please provide an example the illustrates the bolded text above. I've heard so many posters here say "I ignored her, so I should 180 on that, but DBing says I need to detach". This show a blatant lack of understanding of detachment. NO WHERE ANYWHERE IN THE BOOKS OR ON THIS SITE DOES IT SAY THAT DETACHMENT MEANS IGNORING!!!! Sorry, but having to repeat that over and over again get frustrating.

[burned]

What she threw out in the joint session really hit home with me. I think she over exaggerated A LOT of what she infers by my inactions, actions and words to her. Basically everything I do or say she takes the exact opposite of what I meant or intended which was so bizarre. The whole premises of what she said throughout the entire session was essentially that I controlled or manipulated her feelings throughout the entire R, she wasn't allowed to be 'herself' and I didn't support anything she does, etc. Something that was a complete surprise to me. I had no clue that was the case or that's how she felt. I tend to think a lot of it was a rewriting of our history but at the same time I understand how she could have felt that way and it makes sense looking back on it, just not to the extreme amounts she tried to portray.

Bro, this is STANDARD STUFF and it's the reason I think MC is garbage right now. In my case WW used it to make me look bad, make me feel bad, justify her actions, make everyone else think we "tried"... should I go on? Steve was there watching me circle the drain. Not sure if the worst part was before I joined this board but it was BAD. And stupid me, thinking "Oh let's talk about feelings and OM and see if we can't work something out." To use Amoafwl's terminology, bullhockey. "Let's see if MC can help me decide if I want to recommit to the M." Bullhockey WW tactics. Don't take the bait.

She made her decision before you ever even knew she was MAKING one. MC won't change that. The best advice I got was from Steve here and we discussed the pros and cons of just ditching it. I should have ditched it. Hindsight, by the time I got to the board she had already gone back to OM so nothing I did would probably have made a difference at that point.

I've heard so many posters here say "I ignored her, so I should 180 on that, but DBing says I need to detach". This show a blatant lack of understanding of detachment. NO WHERE ANYWHERE IN THE BOOKS OR ON THIS SITE DOES IT SAY THAT DETACHMENT MEANS IGNORING!!!! Sorry, but having to repeat that over and over again get frustrating.

Two things here:

1. Steve is right.
2. Steve is right.
3. Steve is right, and others will also tell you, every time, that the rules have changed. No, the entire game has changed. In my case, BD happened because I was "checked out." So I pursued and pressured to prove that I was all in again. And that got me nowhere. The old game is over. You're not counting touchdowns anymore. You're playing tennis now, so you have to win at least 4 points at least 6 times at least twice to win the match. And that's if the other player is phoning it in. Which the WW is not.
4. Steve is right because he has taken all of the crazy huge amounts of information all over thee boards and distilled it down to like 3 or 4 things you just do it, do it, do it, don't question it, and save yourself MONTHS of pain. Go back to my posts from August and see what happens when you don't listen to Steve.

OK, that was 4 things. But I think you needed a 2x4 early in the game because you have SO much more potential at this point before you start doing things to make it worse.

That being said, you did point out something crucial. Write down everything she said, once you're done being ticked off about how she exaggerated it. THOSE are the things you need to 180 on, at some point. But not to show her how "all in" you are. That will backfire.

since she really hasn't given me a BD yet, I'm not sure if DBing is effective, at this stage of my situation, since my W hasn't told me point blank 'I want out.'

Don't wait for her to say it. It'll hurt when you hear it. And if you're here it's because she already DID something to BD you. And what percentage of what she says are we supposed to believe? ZERO.

DBing would have been effective A YEAR AGO or more. It's definitely effective YESTERDAY and if you're not doing it TODAY you're wasting precious time.

You're using terms like "overanalyze" and "wishful thinking" and "logically" and "reaching out." Man, you and I are going to be very good friends, so get ready. And I mean that with as much compassion as I can convey across the interwebs.

[Wanted1]

I love that you realize you can't change the past. The problem is that you spend most of this paragraph concerned about something you can't control. Her and her thoughts. So forget that. Double-down on controlling yourself. Worrying about what she thinks and feels is a cheeseless tunnel. Don't spend energy on that. Allowing someone to control you is on YOU. Because again you can't control the other person. Ironically, we sometimes forget that they can't control us....unless we allow it. So don't.

Stop obsessing about how to fix her....fix yourself.

So her blaming ME for controlling and manipulating HER throughout our M is basically more on her and less on me then right? That's kind of the conclusion I came to since my intention has NEVER been to control or manipulate her....I'm obviously not going to say that to her and I've been validating her feelings on the subject. Hopefully, if I'm understanding you correctly, either my IC or her IC in our next joint session can address that with her. If she's allowing herself to be controlled or manipulated by my thoughts and feelings, that really isn't something that I should be blamed for...


Regarding the rest of your post.... Maybe I misinterpreted what I mean or very possibly misunderstood the DBing techniques. So, are you saying that I'm not really ignoring the DBing techniques if I instigate conversations with her about things other than our R and M? For example, asking how her meeting went and actually being interested in how it went, etc. Or, saying 'Good Night' to her. Or, complimenting her on an outfit, her hair or anything else?

[burned]

We both posted at the exact same time so please go back and read the previous one.

So her blaming ME for controlling and manipulating HER throughout our M is basically more on her and less on me then right? That's kind of the conclusion I came to since my intention has NEVER been to control or manipulate her....I'm obviously not going to say that to her and I've been validating her feelings on the subject. Hopefully, if I'm understanding you correctly, either my IC or her IC in our next joint session can address that with her. If she's allowing herself to be controlled or manipulated by my thoughts and feelings, that really isn't something that I should be blamed for...

Here's where it gets dicey. You're being too logical. You're trying to make sense of the words that people use to explain feelings. AND, you're doing it under the worst possible conditions. Because the feelings don't line up with reality. And the words are being used for a purpose that is more than just explaining feelings. It's completely jacked up.

Nothing is more on her and less on you. It's 50/50 in any relationship. But now she is trying to take your 50% and put it right up close so that it LOOKS bigger than your 50%. Like how a guy standing off in the distance looks really small compared to the guy standing next to you.

So don't let her, at least not in your heart. Own your side of it, but don't let her exaggerations force you to take more of the blame than you deserve. At this point she is actively trying to make you look bad and feel bad to suit her present needs.

Do NOT expect logic. In fact, use your logic skills to determine at least two explanations that make less sense. And those are the ones that are more likely to be true.

Edit: great opportunity to "grok" an aspect of what detachment is. It's when you take that entire paragraph of what she said during MC or joint counseling or whatever it was...and not let it bother you at all. It shouldn't affect your understanding of reality. It shouldn't make you angry or sad or anything. R2C will jump in and translate for you: "Blah blah blah blah blah."

[Wanted1]

Regarding the rest of your post.... Maybe I misinterpreted what I mean or very possibly misunderstood the DBing techniques. So, are you saying that I'm not really ignoring the DBing techniques if I instigate conversations with her about things other than our R and M? For example, asking how her meeting went and actually being interested in how it went, etc. Or, saying 'Good Night' to her. Or, complimenting her on an outfit, her hair or anything else?

Remember, exterior validation is something that she "craves," for lack of a better term. Maybe that's too harsh, I don't know. But at this point, I feel as though I'm exterior with the situation we are in, and those are things I probably didn't do enough in the past so by instilling those into my changes moving forward, that would essentially be a 180 for me. 2 birds, 1 stone type of a thing -- playing into her need for validation as well as showing her a change in me.

[burned]

showing her a change in me.

Re: above. No; yes. That's DB in about as few words as possible.