Starting over...for the final time (pain DB VI)

[Phoenix9]

I just know that other than not doing anything it's the only choice I have left.

So do nothing. It's the best choice you have.

And W made it clear that since we're separated, her R with OM is not considered an affair, but a "healthy, caring relationship."

I read in a book about recovering from D that essentially all "transitional relationships" end, as they should. They are healthy, they are caring, under certain conditions. But they are not REAL.

We all talk about taking the time, you know, a year or two, to become prepared for a new R. How would a transitional R that began before D be healthy? It's an A, plain and simple, and it's destined for failure.

Set that aside, don't let it eat at you. Time will sort this all out.

Thank you.

[sandi2]

Hello Pain, I saw your request for me to look at your stitch and give my thoughts. I am in the process of reading it now. Before going further, there is something I think needs clarified. I read Vanilla's post about you having a WAW, not a wayward. I admire Vanilla very much and do not wish to post any disagreement with her advice. She was a WAW, herself. We are usually in agreement about WW's. So, I thought perhaps one of us misunderstood your first post where you told of your W making attractive changes in herself and later she admits to kissing a guy. She goes on to say she wants to have "hall-pass" on weekends. My question is, did you separate before she started taking these hall-passes, or after she announced she wanted it? She wanted hall passes in order for her to date, correct? I just want to be clear.

IMHO, waywardness begins in the heart. It is formed from unresolved resentment, disrespect, and finally....rebellion. Other negative issues are often included, but these three make up the main foundation. What I am saying is that waywardness is more than just overt behavior that is inappropriate for a spouse. It starts with her having these resentments she can't get past and it eventually affects her respect for her H as a man. When the respect is damaged, it kills her desire for him. A sexually starved MR is often the first sign her desire for him is waning. She may continue to live with him, raise a family, etc. However, she carries these feelings in her heart. She may show him some levels of disrespect by the way she talks to him, or puts him down as a man, etc. She may never physically cheat on him. IMHO, the physical cheating is not the only defining behavior of waywardness......but many H's don't get too concerned until they know another man has entered the picture. Many WW's have emotional affairs. Anyway, I explain more in my threads, "Help for the LBH with a WW".

I think, perhaps, Vanilla read your post to mean that the separation took place well before your W found a boyfriend and started dating. Like, when the couple has been apart for a while and then she finally dates someone...….which is different, (in my book), than wanting to separate in order to date other guys. Sometimes, they keep the OM hidden until S, and then suddenly he shows up after separation. Anyway, I read it to mean she was maybe showing some signs of waywardness, admitted to kissing a guy and followed up with bomb drop of wanting hall passes......and then the separation followed. Maybe you can help clear it for us. In the meantime, I will finish reading your threads and get back soon.

[Phoenix9]

Hello Pain, I saw your request for me to look at your stitch and give my thoughts. I am in the process of reading it now. Before going further, there is something I think needs clarified. I read Vanilla's post about you having a WAW, not a wayward. I admire Vanilla very much and do not wish to post any disagreement with her advice. She was a WAW, herself. We are usually in agreement about WW's. So, I thought perhaps one of us misunderstood your first post where you told of your W making attractive changes in herself and later she admits to kissing a guy. She goes on to say she wants to have "hall-pass" on weekends. My question is, did you separate before she started taking these hall-passes, or after she announced she wanted it? She wanted hall passes in order for her to date, correct? I just want to be clear.

IMHO, waywardness begins in the heart. It is formed from unresolved resentment, disrespect, and finally....rebellion. Other negative issues are often included, but these three make up the main foundation. What I am saying is that waywardness is more than just overt behavior that is inappropriate for a spouse. It starts with her having these resentments she can't get past and it eventually affects her respect for her H as a man. When the respect is damaged, it kills her desire for him. A sexually starved MR is often the first sign her desire for him is waning. She may continue to live with him, raise a family, etc. However, she carries these feelings in her heart. She may show him some levels of disrespect by the way she talks to him, or puts him down as a man, etc. She may never physically cheat on him. IMHO, the physical cheating is not the only defining behavior of waywardness......but many H's don't get too concerned until they know another man has entered the picture. Many WW's have emotional affairs. Anyway, I explain more in my threads, "Help for the LBH with a WW".

I think, perhaps, Vanilla read your post to mean that the separation took place well before your W found a boyfriend and started dating. Like, when the couple has been apart for a while and then she finally dates someone...….which is different, (in my book), than wanting to separate in order to date other guys. Sometimes, they keep the OM hidden until S, and then suddenly he shows up after separation. Anyway, I read it to mean she was maybe showing some signs of waywardness, admitted to kissing a guy and followed up with bomb drop of wanting hall passes......and then the separation followed. Maybe you can help clear it for us. In the meantime, I will finish reading your threads and get back soon.

Thank you so much sandi. I await your insight to this. To answer your question: W brought up the hall-pass weekends two months before BD (kiss). She started dating OM one month after BD whist we were still in the trial separation phase. And when she brought up hall-passes she made it seem like it would benefit both of us, to which I have disagreed with constantly.

When her R with OM began she was very secretive other than the fact she told me that she is "casually seeing him" or "you're obsessing" (Gaslighting). She moved quickly, asking me if it was ok for D4 to meet him. I had little balls back then so I nice-guyed and said "Sure, if it's casual." Wrong.

When I snooped her phone records and confronted her, she made me feel like the bad guy and again she said that "we are separated".

After that, she still kept her phone to her self but would leave it in conspicuous places, I would assume to test me. I never was tempted. I just knew it was asking for trouble.

When I joined DB forum, I told myself that I was detaching, GAL, all that stuff, but still working on R. When Steve told me that more often that not, R does not happen, I refused to accept and still applied the DB techniques not only for myself, but to show her that I can improve every aspect about myself. And as you read through my story, especially in parts 4 and 5, that I was seeing and feeling tangible change. At the urging of my DB coach, I decided to make some small moves, most which were met with positivity. To which I felt "Hey, these are good signs!". But the folks here saw this and warned me to slow down and that it did not mean anything, good or bad. But I kept up my hope until D4 told me about their affection last weekend and me finding the explicit emails. I called her again and asked to not display PDA in front of D4. Her initial reply was "I thought I was doing that but I will do a better job." Last night, when I told her that I do not want D4 to see OM anymore, she was angry and told me that she needs to see what a "healthy, affectionate relationship" should look like. I just told her I disagreed and that as she grows older she will ask questions about why W made the choices she is making. She returned my remark with a look of disgust and asked "How dare you!" and again repeated the sentiment of seeing happy, healthy relationship behavior.

As we continued to talk, W said that I was "a better version of myself." I thanked her and told I have been working hard on that. I, in return, told W that she is not the same W I fell in love with. I said I was happy about the changes she made, but I expressed to her that she was a different person entirely and that I do not know nor trust this person. I went further when I told her that I do not trust her when it came to D4's visitation. She asked me angrily and to make sure I am not saying it out of anger and to think about what I said and then tell her. I repeated it again. I do not trust her. I said I was not angry. I told her I truly feel that she would take D4 away from me. And she broke down sobbing and told me that she would never ever do that. She said I'm a great father who D4 adores and, heh, tells OM about how great her daddy is.

We proceeded to talk about D. Though she brought it up and asked me to file. I told her that I am in a high emotional state right now and will not be making any decisions at this moment. When/if that time comes, it will come from a logical view.

And here we are.

[Phoenix9]

To add:


She told me that forgave me. I did not say the same. I told her I forgave her for the kiss. But I have not forgiven her for the pain and damage is causing to someone she claimed would never hurt. I told her that I made mistakes of pushing you away and not showing affection and it bit me hard and I'm paying the price dearly for it. I told her I learned my lesson and am now dealing with the painful consequences of my actions. I again told her that I want this horrible chapter in my life to be closed.

And as a final stab, she told me that I'm being vindictive because I'm jealous. I told her that is her assumption numerous times before I slipped at the end of the convo that yes, I am jealous. I am jealous and sad and upset that I am facing a painful and lonely single life again.

The D talk followed after.

[burned]

She told me that forgave me.

Believe nothing they say.

I told her that I made mistakes of pushing you away and not showing affection and it bit me hard and I'm paying the price dearly for it. I told her I learned my lesson and am now dealing with the painful consequences of my actions. I again told her that I want this horrible chapter in my life to be closed.

Pursuit.

The D talk followed after.

Surprised?

All I can do is pass along what I've been told in the last few weeks: take a big, BIG step back from your sitch. Every time you do something, it backfires. So do something: nothing.

[Phoenix9]

Burned, I was not pursuing anything when I told her because I was not after anything. I just want to give her an objective look at what she has done and doing. Was I being vindictive? Unintentionally.

I do not know what I am doing in the long term. I am just getting through today.

Nothing is the plan now. I have nothing to save outside of myself and my R with D4.

[ovrrnbw]

she was angry and told me that she needs to see what a "healthy, affectionate relationship" should look like.

You should have asked her what kind of healthy relationship starts between two people when one of the parties is married?

We proceeded to talk about D. Though she brought it up and asked me to file. [ /quote] B/c she isn't sure what she wants. So stop pressuring not matter what you choose.

[quote] And as a final stab, she told me that I'm being vindictive because I'm jealous.

Is that her way of deflecting the reality of the horrible things she is doing onto you? Jealous? No sugar tits, I'm not jealous of a cheater and POS (the OM_. You haven't even let her feel the consequences of her own decision yet. She wants out, but you've been padding the way for her so far. Let reality hit her and quit talking to her. Separate finances, kick her out, use a SET schedule for the D4 and don't talk to your W. Boom. Done. You'll feel better and your W will have consequences to her choice.

[Phoenix9]

.

You should have asked her what kind of healthy relationship starts between two people when one of the parties is married?

Adding gasoline to the fire, my friend. A valid point, but I'm learning that WW do not listen to reason.

B/c she isn't sure what she wants. So stop pressuring not matter what you choose.[ /quote]

No more pressure. My final say was "I will proceed when I am ready."

And as a final stab, she told me that I'm being vindictive because I'm jealous.

Is that her way of deflecting the reality of the horrible things she is doing onto you? Jealous? No sugar tits, I'm not jealous of a cheater and POS (the OM_. You haven't even let her feel the consequences of her own decision yet. She wants out, but you've been padding the way for her so far. Let reality hit her and quit talking to her. Separate finances, kick her out, use a SET schedule for the D4 and don't talk to your W. Boom. Done. You'll feel better and your W will have consequences to her choice.

Those decisions are being planned right now. When I go there, it will be a calm, civil conversation.

[Phoenix9]

Three phone calls and two random texts so far this morning.

The cycle begins anew. I answered once to ensure D4 is ok...she segued into a conversation about our photo plans (undecided), Halloween (undecided), my costume (I will take care of it myself).

This has happened before and she is setting me up again...right?


Also, I was the one who initially brought up D (out of emotion). Now I'm stepping back. With this impending fight about true separation, how should I handle the D talk when she says "Well you wanted it!"?

[burned]

This has happened before and she is setting me up again...right?

Looks like she hooked you with the call that you did have to answer about D4. Legit. And then went on to the other stuff blah blah blah. I'd say shut that down if you can, next time. "Great, D4 is OK, glad to hear it." She says "Oh and hey what are you wearing for Halloween," and you say, "Sorry, I'm getting another call, gotta go!" Click.

Unless you like being plan B?

Also, I was the one who initially brought up D (out of emotion). Now I'm stepping back. With this impending fight about true separation, how should I handle the D talk when she says "Well you wanted it!"?

Good advice from Davide is to just let it sit. If she ever says "So what about that?" you say, "It was in the heat of the moment and I'd like to think about it some more." Then just let it hang, indefinitely.

My W has never once said the word "D" and yet has goaded me into threatening it, twice. It's what they want. Feeds into the "poor me" narrative. And they know how reactive we are, so they use it against us.