I guess this is piecing

[Accuray]

I had several 1:1 conversations with the MC's I went to. They said that people come to MC for a variety of reasons:

1) Trying to give the appearance that they "tried" when in fact they had already given up. This is public face-saving
2) Trying to help the other person come to terms with the fact that they have decided to leave
3) Trying to get a third party to validate that they are right and the other person is wrong
4) Trying to save their marriage by being willing to work on it.

They said that 95% of the time, one person is coming for reasons 1-3, and the other person is coming for reason 4. When only one person is in, MC has a 0% success rate.

They said that people usually come in about three years too late, when one party is already fully checked out.

It sounds like you're fully in this scenario where you're in group 4 and W is in some combination of groups 1-3. In that scenario, you have almost no chance of success with MC.

I would strongly recommend individual IC and telephone DB coaching as being a *much* more effective course of action for you.

Acc

[neffer]

I agree with ACC and Steve Did. Just free yourself man. Both of you need IC, not MC. You gain nothing hurrying up things. Set boundaries (for you) and try to figure out what you expect from expectations...;-)

You'd be 100% better off with a "tough love" boundaries approach followed by going dark than sharing any of your private thoughts, feelings, doubts and complaints in front of her during MC -- it will be a HUGE mistake.
Acc

This is a super headshot from ACC. This is it Did. This is what you need.

[Did]

Going to take your advice. Thanks all. You’re like friends to me at this point and I appreciate your insights more than you know.

Not going to air grievances going to mention goal of MC and reason for being there. She wants to be proven she’s right. Not dating her if she’s on dating apps talking to others guys. May just be done for now go dark whatever.

[neffer]

Keep DBing man. Set your boundaries and work on yourself. Be there for D4 and GAL. Get into amoafwl, be consistent with your changes. You don´t sit waiting for no one. Start walking your road, slowly but surely.

[ovrrnbw]

Did,

just finished your post from yesterday, that's good to get all of that out! And you did it in the right place in my opinion.

My take is that you really are coming to a lot of the right conclusions on your own, but you have all these feelings holding you back from accepting what you know is true. That's ok, that's called being a human. I've played lots of sports, as have you. One of the hardest lessons to learn is what your weaknesses are and how to manage them. Not making those "unforced errors" makes more of a difference than the spectacular plays over the course of a season. So you need to "know yourself" and your weaknesses. Your W is your weakness and you know it, we know it, everyone knows it (and it's OK too). So learn to manage that. Tell your W "let me think about that and I'll let you know" it buys you enough time to calm down, remove the emotion, and make your decision. You can't always do it but you will get better with practice.

You said you're a leader, so lead! It's hard. Make the hard decision, even though you don't want to. Detach. Let her go. Show her you won't play the games, that you've made up your mind on how to live, that you aren't going to settle for an up and down, hot and cold R. I know that you really don't want the hot and cold R, but you have shown your W that you'll settle for it. You've settled for it so much that it seems like you've settled in and now it's just part of your life. It's a habit. Breaking habits is hard work.

What Steve and Accuray said is great too. I loved Acc's post about the four types of people in MC. It's so true.

If you decide to go dark, make sure it's a decision and a plan you can stick to. No more flip flopping. Like you said, you're a leader. Be firm, steady, strong. It's not easy and sometimes it flat out [censored], but it will pay dividends down the road whether you reconcile or not. Your W can't figure out anything right now, so you need to figure out yourself. She'll make her own decisions in her own time. Separate yourself from the craziness.

Oh and by the way, I like the story about the chick you met. Sounds pretty cool! Too bad you can't fully jump into any of that b/c it sounds awesome. Glad the trip was a success!

[Did]

Thanks ovr love the sport analogy.

One other thing I want to say is that I believe the voluntary support is allowing her to be condependnt on me for finances and whatever her needs are unrelated to emotion. And I’m codependent on her on the emotional side of the relationship.

[SteveLW]

Yes Did, that voluntary support has kept you both attached to each other, in different ways. I get that she will be entitled to alimony. However, the difference is that if you leave the Ding to her, that she has to go through the process and do the dirty work in order to get the alimony, I think you'd see a different side of her. The voluntary support gives her the luxury of post D benefits without the pain and effort of having to go through the D. This has been my point all along.

Yes she will be entitled to alimony, but make her work for it.

[Did]

Well I hope you all haven’t given up on me. Probably going to be venting here. I’ve been journaling and working on myself GAL with some guy friends. Continually have opportunities to travel for lacrosse tournaments but hesitant to leave for an extended period of time with split custody and w struggling to parent solo. When I got back from 5 days in Hawaii she was a mess leading to issues noted below.

We got into it via text with wife today. She said she avoids communicating with me because it drains her and brings her down. Now she has also said how different my energy is that she loves me im a great dad no one hotter than me sex was great etc. Admits she’s not consistent day to day and isn’t ready in her journey. This is a 1.5 year separation. Previously we had solid progress with MC. Dating once every week or two not seeing other people. No talking or sexual stuff with other partners. Been almost two months since w and I slept together and I thought we were going to be piecing.

Recently I made the mistake of rescuing and NGS tendencies the last couple weeks. She asks for help with D4. I came over a couple days to help out. Including one day her asking me to rub her neck because she gets tension headaches and migraines. She has been in the hospital for this. I show up she’s in a thong in bed asking me to rub her neck. Umm yea how about a side of hard sex to go with it.

Then She pulls away and has the nerve to say we should be together for dates and not around each other so much. When she invited me over. Said she wants to keep me at arms length. C agrees this is manipulative and she’s not doing the work. I believe she is also projecting everything on me and personally believe she has a slew of other issues. She said today communicating with me brings her down and she can’t do it. The only thing that makes her feel better is being productive and powerful alone.

So all I can do is go to LRT and full DB mode, right? Pretty disappointed but saw it coming as I’m sure you did if you followed my sitch. W told me she wasn’t ready. She’s still full of anger and resentment. During text convo today she said she doesn’t think we can make each other’s lives better. She’s avoiding communicating with me because it brings her down. Then she shows up to pick up d4 and we get along well.

On my end I take responsibility and will never bring up the relationship by text or outside of therapy. I promise myself that. Back to the picnic analogy I was making progress there but I allowed her lack of effort to feet me and I started pursuing. Repetitive mistake someone hit me with a 2x4.

Issues continues... She has this fake surface happiness as if she’s fine but said 6 weeks ago she had a hard time getting up in the morning and has nothing to offer the world but pain last week D4 was sick I offered her to take the MC spot for IC she said she didn’t wanna spend $ when she didn’t think she needed it. Damn really?! My gut is telling me to stop trying. There has to be a better partner for me. I know she has post partum stuff and uses d4 for external happiness. That’s really all she has and a gf or two she’s not honest with as far as I know I’m the only one she’s really opened up to when she’s been hurting. No one knows we’re in therapy or dating / not seeing other people. It’s a Fing hot mess

I want it all but she’s no where near ready. Last IC session C said she’s not doing the work you’re hearing the same things. Next session tell her what you need if she wants to date you. It’s not healthy for you etc. I have to listen to C and sandi / DB vets and do what works. l believe there has to be a better partner for me but I also believe if W and I were healthy we could build a great relationship. How can we get there... I just gotta chill out and GAL which I’m doing better at. Holidays are tough I wanna do Xmas w her family but may travel instead.

C asks why I love her- We connect on a higher level intellectually and have values and morals that are rare, we have similar interests like astrology, nutrition, enjoy nature hiking, animals, deeper conversation, she is a great mom and physically / Sexually I’m so attracted to her. I find myself having sexual thoughts and fantasies about convos W and I had a month or two ago when I go to sleep or wake up. Yea I want that and just a couple months ago she wanted it with me.

We have counseling scheduled for Dec 3. I’m going to say something like if you want to date me I need you to work on yourself and do what C recommended - 2 books to read, 6 weeks she read 40 pages. When she was reading and trying it was going pretty well. Work on communication and consistency be in IC. Accept you still resent me and have a lot of anger which is ok but should be talked about in a healthy way. Tell her I accept her and where she is, respect her and her journey and want her best effort. Then ask her what she needs from me.

MC has recommended Ic for both of us. She continually hurts me but I continue to allow it. Im going to work on saying no more. I’m going to focus on dropping the rope and detaching. I’ve been re-reading initial posts. My goal is to not allow her or anyone’s actions to affect my mental health and emotional stability. Pull away / LRT and if she comes back don’t jump at it... chill out and NO MORE R talks.

If anyone has food threads or articles / reading recommendations please send links / book titles.

[ovrrnbw]

Glad to see you back Did, you're one of the good guys around here.

Your W is still going through her own deal. She's hot and cold. The whole hey come over and rub my neck thing, well you probably knew what that meant before you went, right? So next time, just tell "sorry, I've got plans". Because I don't think you really want to go over there to play these games, right? You want it be more than this, but you wanting it does not make it so. She definitely wants to keep you on the hook, she definitely has feelings for you, but every time you come closer in response to her, she tells you how hurtful it is to communicate with you or how it is bringing her down. She keeps doing that, and you don't control her. But you do control your response to her. So respond differently.

Damn really?! My gut is telling me to stop trying.

I think I know what you mean here. In my sitch, I think there are some legitimate areas I can still improve on in my interactions with W. But when it comes to game playing, you do need to bow out. Your "trying" is really just pursuit, unless I have forgotten something - just let me know.

I’m going to say something like if you want to date me I need you to work on yourself and do what C recommended - 2 books to read, 6 weeks she read 40 pages. When she was reading and trying it was going pretty well. Work on communication and consistency be in IC. Accept you still resent me and have a lot of anger which is ok but should be talked about in a healthy way. Tell her I accept her and where she is, respect her and her journey and want her best effort. Then ask her what she needs from me.

So are you going to stop trying, or going to spill your guts to her again so she can tell you about how much it hurts to communicate with you? Have you ever really let go of her for more than a few days?

She continually hurts me but I continue to allow it.

Yep, I'm a glutton for punishment too. We love our wives, and we think that the love and their vow should be enough - but it's not. Let's learn and get better, OK?

I'm rereading DR right now, it seems I've forgotten quite a bit. Good luck Did, wish you were out my way so we could have a few holiday drinks!

[Did]

Thanks Ovr good to hear from you. Im on the east coast where are you?

What should my reaction be if she says Im hurting her or bringing her down. Just validate I guess. I understand how hard this is for you... something like that?

Our MC told me I should tell her what my boundaries are - tell her what you need if she wants to date you. She also recommended I make a timeline because W may be stuck for months or years. I had said Feb when I'll turn 34. A half dozen times after our interactions in the past month I've thought, I'm done with this... and we are not even at Feb.

I still believe if I move on / let go she may come back but thats not why Im doing it. Id be done because I dont deserve to be treated this way. I dont see her making any effort. I believe she still has a lot of resentment because of my past mistakes but as my therapist said. How much work could of been done over the last 1.5 years if she had done the work? I have changed a lot and by no means am I a finished product but Im much better than I was and I continue on my journey in therapy, reading, a couple mens groups Im looking to get into... [censored] but it is what it is. Not sure what else I can do except stop talking to her...

She facetimed with D4 around 7pm. Talked to D4 for 5-10 minutes then told them I had to go. I have not texted or reached out and do not plan to.