13 years and two small children

[SteveLW]

Believe nothing she says, and only half of what she does. Now that you have grown back your balls and started to assert yourself, be prepared for her to go into stealth mode. Where before she was open and blatant because you were letting her get away with it, now she will probably be more discrete, and start hiding her rendezvouses.

At this point, most LBS ask "when will I know she really has changed and given up the OM". The answer is you will know when her behavior is consistent (no unexplained absences, etc) for a long period of time. Think months, or even a year or more.

Until then it is nothing more than lies and manipulations. So don't be ready to give in too quickly to "changes" she says she is making.

[AnotherStander]

According to Sandi rules, I should show that I am content, happy and moving forward - I should be nice and friendly - however I am having a real hard time figuring out where the "border" between detaching from our old life and showing her that I don't really care but still act friendly and nice. - You talk about throwing her out of the bedroom (we are taking turns sleeping in the bedroom of the youngest child - should I tell her to move there permanently, and is that not going against sandi's rule about being cordial and not arguing, being happy and content?

Some here do suggest kicking a WAS out of the bedroom. Personally my attitude is that YOU don't leave, but you leave it to them as to what they want to do. So personally I don't believe in kicking her out, but I fully believe in shutting her down if she tries to kick you out. The thing about dealing with a WAS is they think the LBS is controlling and manipulative. So to do a 180 on that you've got to leave her alone and let her make her own decisions whether you think they are smart or stupid, good or bad. She says she doesn't want to sleep in the same bed with you? Tell her you are not going anywhere, but that she is welcome to sleep there, or in the basement, or on the back porch or the roof or wherever. It's her choice. Same thing if she says she wants S or D, you tell her it's not what you want but you will respect her wishes and allow her to leave. But YOU stay put (assuming you can financially).

Anyway you did boot her out of the bedroom and I am not telling you that was wrong (particularly since she is a WW rather than WAS), now that you've done it then stick to your guns. Because consistency is very important, and very difficult for a LBS because they want to try every trick and technique they can to see if anything "works" (but it doesn't in the short term, because there is no magic trick).

What about daily life? today we have gymnastics (don't know if that is the right word for it in english) with the little ones, and she wants to come, do I tell her, yes sure, lets go play family? or do I just tell her, we don't do this anymore? I am having a hard time finding the balance in this 180.. How much "family" do I play with her?

That's the correct word. OK so in general the rule is don't ask her out on dates, but if you are going to do something and she wants to come along then that's fine. But you go whether she goes or not. Your attitude should be you don't care whether she goes or not.

She apparently found my letter this morning when she packed the bags for work (yea she insists on packing my lunchbox still - should I just tell her; no thank you?" She asked if the letter was for her? (it was in an envelope with her name on it) - She seemed genuinely happy and interested in it, however I told her no it wasn't. She then responded "well, it has my name on it..." and then left it with that comment - should I just destroy the letter ? (the one that informs her, of the fact that I am moving on now with the kids because she is so infatuated and out of reach that we are not compatible at this point).

Good grief yes, get rid of it! Where in the world did you leave it where she just happened to see it? And why? Ask yourself that, because I'm thinking you wanted her to find it. Do not ever discuss the contents with her. If she keeps bugging you about it just say you had written some thoughts down but in retrospect you realize it was more for you than her and you have since destroyed it.

Tonight she will be going to OM again, and whenever she does, she becomes real distant and cold in the hours before leaving. Yesterday she wasn't going anywhere, and I had a late meeting a work, when I came home she had kept food warm for me in the oven, and sat down to eat with me.. I am so confused to this behavior.

Are you? Even though we just explained cake-eating to you? Because what you describe is 100% consistent with a WW's cake-eating practices.

This morning she came in, and told me, that she would not be leaving home sunday through wednesday, as she had planned to. In fact she would not be going there anymore. Then she burst in tears and excused herself. I asked her if she was okay to which she replied no, not at all.. I didn't respond to her answer nor did I comfort her in any ways. I just made breakfast for me and the kids and attended to their needs and my own.

She proceeded to delete all the calendar dates where she was supposed to leave the house to be with OM.

How do I proceed from here?

You keep doing what you are doing and treating her like the WAYWARD wife that she is. Because she still is. It is not at all unusual for a wayward to put on this big act of "ditching OM" only to go deeper undercover with the affair. OM is like a drug and your W is an addict. All addicts can quit for an hour or two or three and make a big show of throwing out their needles and crying and saying they are done with it all. But then the withdrawals start, and 99% of them are right back at it.

[Hurt213]

Update:

So basically she has been moping around the house acting like a sad puppy for the last 24 hours. I suspect that it is in fact OM who ended things btetween them as she was really hooked on abandoning us all for her new endeavors with him.

Last night I arrived home from the gym to find her in the couch all packed up in blankets and looking like crap. I sat down for 30 minutes, had a bite to eat, and she asked me how my training went and acted all polite, but didn't talk at all about us or the OM, so I just ignored every urge to talk to her, and told her I would call it an early night and went to bed.

She was really active on the phone, and I saw that she were engaged in a heavy texting correspondence, so I suspect she is either trying to sort things out with OM or seeking support from her girlfriends - not my problem i told my self.

This morning she wandered around the house in a towel after having showered, I couldn't help but notice of course. I didn't say anything though.

Tonight she is going to be heading out to a mutual friends house probably to get emotional support - I am going to continue 180 and detach until she comes around, or not. Either way the house is going for sale on sunday.

I am 100 % positive that she is still in contact with OM on the phone (maybe elsewhere as well) so I am not having my hopes up just because she came home and said she wouldn't be going there anymore...

Am I doing the right thing?

[SteveLW]

Yes, keep up the good work.

[sandi2]

The tears, taking things off the calendar, mopping around the house...….the whole thing is a performance for you. She knows you are a nice guy and she's going to push those NG buttons. As crazy as it sounds, she (the adulterer) wants you to feel sorry for her. She wants you to feel that you are being too hard on her. Listen, nothing is more self centered than a WW. Give her zero attention when she is crying and mopping. Let her have a pity party for one.

Here's the thing about WW's. The H has to behave as if he is fed up with her behavior. He isn't impressed or concerned with what he sees in her, until she's willing to do the right thing (end the affair). The mistake most LBH's initially make is trying to show his WW that they can save the MR, that he can be Mr. Wonderful, and live happily ever after. Some H's may actually try to compromise with the WW, even though he knows she's in an affair. These actions are not effective b/c it tells her that he is willing to endure her disrespect. Before he can have a successful reconciliation, she has to be convinced that he will not compromise with her adulterous behavior, and that he is not going to shower her with love while she disrespects him.

The H must set boundaries, but he must understand how it works before he starts shooting off his mouth. Boundaries are not to control what she does, but they are to protect your feelings. If she honors your boundary, fine. If she doesn't honor them, then there should be some sort of consequences. That's the only effective way the WW learns how to respect her H's boundaries. Therefore, before you start crowing about a bunch of "boundaries" to her, discuss with the board first.

I suspect that it is in fact OM who ended things btetween them as she was really hooked on abandoning us all for her new endeavors with him.

Even if that's the case, it doesn't mean she is anywhere near being over him. Affairs are addictive, and she will try to keep contacting him. If he's really through with her, then she might try to find OM2. Just don't want you getting high hopes just yet. They may have had a "lover's spat". The last thing you need to do is comfort her for feeling so badly cause her & lover boy are finished (if that's the case). Neither should you act excited, b/c she will act even more wayward to prove to you that the M is over. Just don't show her any emotion one way or the other.

I sat down for 30 minutes, had a bite to eat, and she asked me how my training went and acted all polite, but didn't talk at all about us or the OM, so I just ignored every urge to talk to her, and told her I would call it an early night and went to bed.

Fantastic!

This morning she wandered around the house in a towel after having showered, I couldn't help but notice of course. I didn't say anything though.

Just act as if you don't notice a thing. Look, the H is the WW's backup plan, and she will do things to keep that backup plan secured...….if you know what I mean. If she feels her world is a little shaky right now, she could be thinking, "I better keep hubby interested so I don't kicked out to the curb". The WW wants what benefits her, and she's going to look out for number one.

Tonight she is going to be heading out to a mutual friends house probably to get emotional support - I am going to continue 180 and detach until she comes around, or not.

You are probably correct about the emotional support from her friends.

What 180's are you doing? That's a good start, but you left out GAL. When you are truly getting enough GAL, you will feel differently about yourself (upbeat, confident, decisive, attractive, etc.). It is the ingredient that helps you more forward and upward.

Am I doing the right thing?

Yes, as long as you don't have the mindset that you are trying to get good enough for her to pick you, rather than the OM. I think one of the traps that H's with NGS fall into the most when facing the possibility of D, is trying to get good enough to win the WW. It doesn't work. What does work is for her to see him being strong enough to dump her. As long as she sees him being the grieving H who is patiently waiting for her to come around...….she's not worried about him being there. Know what I mean? Remember, she's not the prize. You are!

So, if the house sells right away, what are your plans?

[Hurt213]

I will admit, that it made me happy that she announced that she would not be going to OM no more, however I see your logic, and I will continue, and am glad, that I chose to ignore her and that my focus is 95% (getting there) on me and my kids.

I am working out 4 times a week after work, doing gymnastics with my kids, being with friends and family in the weekends and I play golf 2 - 3 times a week. First I did this only to get away from home and I came to the realization that I lost out on a lot of time with my kids by acting like this. Now I try to include my kids a lot more in my GAL, and I seem to have found a nice balance (still work in progress).

My weeks are actually quite filled with activities involving both my kids, but also activities that are just for me and my friends. (golf, gym, going out).

If the house sells quick (as we suspect it will), then I will be moving into a rental close to my WW so the kids are close, and then I will proceed to detach, do 180 and basically my logic is - If she wants to be with me, she will have to show it. I fought for 3 months now, and it is her time to take over, if not, then I will find happiness elsewhere I am sure.

Most important thing for me right now, is the happiness and secured future of my two little ones.

[Hurt213]

Update:

So much not has happened. I have been trying to detach, mind my own business and have fun with my kids.

WW has not been being OM as far as i've been concerned since she announced, that she would not be going there anymore.

Today she has frantically been cleaning the house and making ready for the real estate broker tomorrow. She removed several pictures of her and me, which hurt my feelings, but I did not mention it. She told me again the other day, that her feelings are gone, and she is unsure if it is possible for said feelings to return? - I had no answer to give her so I said, I understand your uncertainty, however I am in no position to tell you how the future pans out - life is about taking a leap of faith from time to time, however the decision lies with her.

Right now I feel like, she does not feel anything towards me, which is maybe caused by the fact that she is so full of feelings towards the OM even though they are not currently seeing each other. She also told me, that she really has a strong desire to live by herself, make all decisions by herself and so on (I find that to be childish, when you are settled with two kids and a family) - I did not tell her that of course.

Tomorrow the real estate broker gets here - she asked if we should watch a movie tonight. I have no plans, so I said that I didn't know yet, but maybe - bad idea? She is trying to engage in a lot of conversation - I am answering in short replies, but im trying to be contempt, happy and act like nothing is bothering me, even though the "deadline" of the house going for sale is really getting close now.

Am I throwing in the towel at this point?

[DonH]

Yes she likely doesn't feel much for you right now but the problem is that's exactly what happens when anyone starts loving someone else has sex with them and then interacts very little with her H. Of course you can't tell her this! She still longs for OM. If he does stay away and OM2 doesn't appear then you may have a chance again if that happens spending time together is the best way for her to build back feelings - and they can come back, she just doesn't believe that.

So what do you do? I think you are already doing well. If you really have no plans and she asks to watch a movie MWD and DBing say to do that. Just dont put any expectations on this. Be light, upbeat and fun. This is a chance to show her what she'll be missing and for those feelings to return. Be the guy she fell in love with. A fun night with zero pressure or expectation may get her to think, hmmmm that was fun and I don't feel pressure, I'd like todo that again. If that happens enough it will help. Now if you do - no R talk no talk about the house or OM. Don't be her GF. If she goes there say "I thought we were just watching a movie" don't let her cry on your shoulder. This should simply be a fun date - that's it.

[sandi2]

She removed several pictures of her and me, which hurt my feelings, but I did not mention it.

Good!

The WW and LBH are emotionally disconnected. The H tends to watch his W's reaction to almost everything said & done. My advice to you is to keep a poker face. She's not going to make any decisions based on your feelings, anyway. That may sound cold, but the WW is cold. This is not the same girl that you married.

Am I throwing in the towel at this point?

What does that mean? Does it mean you stop pursuing her? Does it mean you stop trying to persuade her to change her mind? Does it mean you stop acting desperate? She knows you don't want a D. She knows she has hurt you. She has a mind of her own. You didn't give up...….she did. You didn't throw in the towel...….she did.

One of the biggest mistakes that H's make after the OM has dumped the WW, is allowing her to simply continue living with him......without requiring anything from her. Some H's think if the affair is over, then they can pick up where ever the MR left off. The WW would love those options! She doesn't want to be remorseful, responsible, accountable, or do any emotional hard work on her end. If the H "plays happy family" with her without requiring total transparency, MC, etc...…...it will only be a matter of time until things will fold. Why, b/c she is basically cake eating whenever she doesn't have to do the necessary work to help repair the damage she's caused. It's one thing if she is willing to do whatever is necessary...….but it's entirely another thing to just continue on as though nothing has happened. Make sense?

Until the house sells, my suggestion is that you don't discuss your feelings with her. If she wants to talk, then you listen. If you don't hear a very humble apology, and you don't see any change in her attitude toward you......then chances are she is holding out for OM. If the family eats together, then I suggest you try to have a pleasant atmosphere for the sake of the children. If you are watching tv with the kids, and the W joins, then fine. But for just the two of you to spend time watching tv together, or sharing much of anything else apart from the kids...makes a loud statement that you are okay with her. It gives her the message that you will settle for whatever she decides to give. That's why she is still voicing how she has no feelings for you, and how she wants to live on her own, etc. She is pretty sure that your feelings for her have not changed. Why do you suppose she senses that you want to keep the MR?

Don't tell her what you want, or even what you would need if the MR resumes......unless she seriously asks what it would take. If she goes to you and asks what she needs to do to make things right, then tell her what you need (whatever it is),.......and add that you'll need her willingness to be completely transparent (on your terms) and to cooperate with a MC. She can't dictate the terms, b/c she is the one who betrayed the MR. It will take time for her feelings to match her actions, but if she is "willing" to do the work, it can happen. It's not easy for the WW to agree, and she may accuse you of trying to control, having no privacy, etc. Well, that's too bad. If she wants a M with you, then she's got to forfeit privacy privileges until you decide she no longer has a hidden agenda. That usually takes 2-3 years, based on the accounts I've read.

Remember, you are not the cheater. Don't think by you agreeing to compromise with her will cause her to do the right thing or have the right feelings toward you. It won't.

[Hurt213]

Update:

So today we had the real estate broker come by and do a (i don't know the word for this i english) screening of the house to set a market value: We were pleased by the fact that we have a house that is sought after currently, and he thinks it will sell very quickly if he gets to put it out there (the price will even make it, so that both of us gets out of this without any financial set back). WW was very happy at first about the pricing and the fact that this most likely won't take long.

After the broker left, we sat down (WW's request), and we talked. I have been "taking over" the conversations for a long time, where when we talked, I would all of a sudden be the one talking, cause I would be voicing my own opinions - that changed today, I listened to her opinions, validated to the best of my skills and showed her, that I was actually giving her my 100% attention when she spoke.

First, we talked about the meeting we just had, and that we were content with the pricing and the fact that this wouldn't drag out (I told her, that if that was how she felt, then alright). She then proceeded to tell me, that she would really like it if we could wait until after Christmas to put the house on the market (she didn't want to give me false hopes for anything) but she was in "no hurry". I said I heard what she was saying, but I would have to think about it.

Then she began talking about me and her, and how things had turned bad, I just listened, and didn't try to alter her opinion. She then proceeded to talk about the OM, how he had given her the things I was not able to when I was sick and how she desperately had longed for it. How she had envisioned her and him being the future, and then how he had ended things and not her. They are not in contact as of now (but I know they will be no later than next week with work related stuff). She said she hated him for it and that she was sure, that he was clearly not over his divorce yet, however if he wrote to her, she didn't know if she would go back to him, however as of now, she really hated him - I just listened, but I absolutely did not validate or show sympathy towards that part of the conversation, I just let her talk.

She began talking about how, maybe her and I, really just would be better of, if we went on a holiday just the two of us to somewhere - because that was what had been neglected for so long. It had been all about the children and not us. I listened, and validated her opinions. She talked about how she was afraid to start over with me, because she would be afraid to meet someone, and then be a bad person and do this all over again (she then burst in tears), I just listened.

She talked about selling the house, buying an apartment, living there for a couple of years as a family, solving the puzzle, rekindle the flame, and then build a new house in a new town. I listened.

Tonight she came in and for the first time in 3 months, she tugged herself in next to me in the couch under the blankets, but then immediately fell asleep. I didn't read anything special into it, as the only thing im currently working is: 180, GAL, be the best dad I can be and detaching. The reason for this is also that she stated that she didn't know how she would respond if OM decided to reengage contact - I am not a standby, never will be so im staying on course.

As always, comments are REALLY appreciated and helps me a lot in this mess.