Trying to keep the faith

[kiwi]

Hi Flysolo, I am following your thread and see so many similarities, except you are a little further along. I feel with you when you talk about family time without you, I feel the same about our marriages, that we did not pay enough attention to one another and lived parallel lives and it hurts so much to see, that they have given up the R, when I see that we could do better. Hope is still there, which is helpful and painful at the same time. I hope you enjoy the rest of the weekend.

[FlySolo]

Hi Kiwi - I am so sorry you are going through what you are going through. I see parallels in our sitch's as well. I can say that the pain isn't constant anymore, but when it does hit, it is still as intense. I have not yet given up hope.

If your H is anything like mine, MO was as painful for him as it was for me. He said two weeks after MO "I am happier now" and did another (he was at the house more in the two weeks after MO then he was in the two months before). My cleaner told me the other day that the day after H moved out, he was in the MBR and when he came out his eyes were red like he'd been crying/ He was carrying the box of photos that I had taken down the night before (all the photos of us in frames).

[FlySolo]

Hi FS. Wouldn’t it be nice if were the type of women who could use another person to escape from our pain without feeling like it is incredibly wrong??

I was that kind of woman once. Whilst I have nothing against casual sex, right now I couldn't do. I am not in the right frame of mind emotionally. I would be doing it to feel validated and, once the high wore off, I would feel dirty. I think I mentioned the long term relationship before H. We were together from around 14. We split for a year in my early 20's and I went a little off the rails. When we got back together I couldn't be intimate with him. I convinced myself it was because I wasn't attracted to him. It wasn't because sleeping with any of the other men whilst we were apart made me feel dirty, it wasn't because my ex made me feel dirty. It was because somehow, in my subconscious, sleeping with him, after all I had done, would make him dirty. Funny how the mind works.

Re: your H’s OW. I don’t believe her for a second. That’s the kind of thing you tell someone at the start of a relationship [and convince yourself of too] in order to rope them in. As the relationship goes on, she will want more and the pressure will increase. Try not to think of the OW too much. She really means nothing. As soon as she starts to make demands of him, he will run. No doubt.
(((HUGS)))

I agree entirely.

Try not to think of the OW too much. She really means nothing. As soon as she starts to make demands of him, he will run. No doubt. (((HUGS)))

I am not worrying about her. I know this is going to bite him in the [censored]

Journal ..

H did manage to pick up D12 for football yesterday though he was about 30 mins late. I got a text simply saying "I'll be there in 20 mins. Make sure D12 is ready". I did not go to football with them. He looked a bit shocked "you're not coming ??" but as it was cold and wet outside I said it didn't seem fair to make D8 stand in a field for a couple of hours. He said when he got back that we could have sat in the car. He so much still wants us to be a family. When he gets annoyed at my not doing things with them, a part of me thinks that family he wants to be a part of still includes me.

I think he was telling the truth about meeting his mates. He mentioned without prompting who was there and told me how some of them are doing. That doesn't mean she wasn't there. We were inseparable until we had D12. We went everywhere together. When D12 was born I became a mum and gave up certain things. H became a dad. His sacrifices weren't the same though. There is no blame in that statement. We just couldn't both go out, so I stayed home. At first it was practical, then it became habit. That was my choice, and I would do it again but I would maybe make some time for us too.

I am away on a last minute business trip. It has been a very long day. I have always avoided going away for business. H always made me feel guilty for it. I don't think he was consciously even aware that he didn't like it. I was asked to do this trip late last Friday. It is only for one day but means that I had to stay overnight Sunday, do a day here and then back Monday night. I asked H if he could have the girls Sunday night. He said no, he already had plans - apparently one of the guys that he saw sat night was staying an extra night.

Thankfully MIL agreed to do have the girls last night. We weren't able to get through the work today, so am staying over tonight and heading back tomorrow. H was always supposed to have them tonight, so at least that's one battle I don't have to have.

Whilst I was in the city last night, I called a girlfriend I haven't seen in a while and we went out for a late supper. I never would have met up with her (as I wouldn't have agreed to the trip) if H and I were still together. We went for tapas and talked industry gossip. It was a really nice night.

Whilst it's positive I am making decision for myself, I know that he hates that he is losing control over me. I don't know if that makes him more likely, or less likely to come back to me.

Some positives ... there are ways that I feel we are getting closer. We talk now. He seems genuinely interested in what I have been doing. He initiates small talk about nothing much. He volunteers information (though I know is careful about what he tells me). I did a 180 and asked him to look at something in my car. Turned out it was user error . I would not have asked for his help before (I would have asked FIL next time I saw him) but for some reason I did, and normally he would huff and look at me like I'm stupid but just went 'there you go'. I still feel the rise in temperature when I do something that he doesn't expect me to do (like going away for a business trip, saying no when he asks me to join them) but I also see him trying to hold it in check.

I think Db is working in that it is moving us one step closer to being friends. I still have expectations though ... so I guess I stay on my detaching horse until either the expectations are no more or he shows me he wants to try and work things out.

[DejaVu6]

That all sounds really positive FS. Small steps, right? I think losing control of you make him more likely to come back. However, not to the same marriage. If your H wants to reconcile, he is going to have to make some changes. FS is not a woman who is controlled by anyone except her own fabulous self!! :-D

I think you are doing really well. He volunteers that info, IMO, because he wants you to know that he isn't out with OW. Who knows what the motivation is but there IS a motivation and that seems the most obvious. My H rarely volunteers information when he isn't asked so when he does, I take note. He wants me to know it for some reason.

I can really relate to your comments about how having your D12 changed the dynamic between the two of you. That was me and my H too. We spent a lot of time together prior to our kids and after, it was with our kids or barely ever. That, of course, took its toll on our relationship and I was aware of it, on some level. I think I just convinced myself that since I was aware of it and had decided within myself to just accept it until the kids were more independent [not blaming anyone except the situation], I assumed he was doing the same thing. Apparently not. Apparently he saw it as marrying the wrong person or falling out of love, etc... and he became angry and resentful and started to detach to the point that he says he has "pressed pause on [his] heart". How one does that, I have no idea. Not sure I am capable.

Anyway...keep up the good work. You sound like you are doing really well overall!!

[FlySolo]

Hi DejaV -

I agree that he tells me so I know he isn't with her. Not sure why either. His mum telling me he showed her a picture of OW on his phone threw me for a bit. Photos are a very couply thing to do. I don't know the context of the photo so (probably) may be reading too much into it.

I called the kids earlier and it was kind of weird talking to the them and then not speaking to him after. Normally it is him calling the girls. I would get so disappointed every time he would hang up without speaking to me. I am use to it now. I didn't not talk to him because I wanted to show him how it felt. I just think it would be weird.

Hi - how was your day.
Good thanks, how was yours
Ok ... well bye.

I could hear him in the background giving D8 the answers to the questions I was asking.

We spent a lot of time together prior to our kids and after, it was with our kids or barely ever. That, of course, took its toll on our relationship and I was aware of it, on some level.

I had no interest standing in bars or dancing in clubs until the early hours (what we use to do together) once the children were born. They were, and still are, my everything. I use to think he was selfish because his life didn't change as much as mine. He probably felt I abandoned him during those early years, so went out more, which in turn made me resentful . Maybe I could have paid him more attention. We (H and I) both made bad choices.

Apparently he saw it as marrying the wrong person or falling out of love, etc... and he became angry and resentful and started to detach to the point that he says he has "pressed pause on [his] heart". How one does that, I have no idea. Not sure I am capable.

Did you read the story about the WAW spouse putting her heart in a box (it is in R2C's quotes thread and I think it was SmartCookie who posted it). It fits some WAH's as well. The causes are different (I suspect for some men its that feeling of being abandoned by their W once the kids arrive) but the symptoms are the same.

[DejaVu6]

I didn't read that story. It would be great if I could. Do you know how I could find it? I'm afraid I haven't quite mastered the ins and outs of this site yet. My H and I were past the bar stage by the time we had kids but we used to go out to dinner a few times a week...watch hockey games together on the tv...get together with friends to play poker, go to martial arts classes three times a week, etc... all of that pretty much came to a screeching halt when the twins were born. Part of it was that we were exhausted but it was also a finances thing once the kids were in daycare and we were paying as much or more than most people we knew were paying for mortgages. It was a big hit. One thing that happened that my H has NEVER forgiven me for is that I went into a bit of a new-mom panic and started worrying our house [his childhood home] wasn't big enough. We ended up selling it and buying a bigger one about five minutes away [more debt] and at the time, I thought he was in agreement. However, his recollection is that it was all my idea and he had no say and that he did not want to sell. That was nine years ago and we now own a dream home free and clear because of the sale of our second home and it is STILL on his top three list of things I've done he resents me for. He was super enthusiastic (did not hesitate to say "yes" and that he was sick of living in the city) about selling the second time and moving to a new community but I would not be surprised if five years down the road, he remembers that as being something he was forced into doing and something else to be mad at me for.

I think you may be right about the feeling abandoned part. Another thing on his top three list is when I briefly entertained the idea of being a surrogate for my twin sister who was unable to have kids because of cancer treatments. Because I am her identical twin, I got the idea that it would be just like her having her own kids and got quite excited about the idea. When I told my H, regrettably, I may have been too enthusiastic and he got quite upset with me. I had expected him to be supportive so it threw me when he was the opposite. He even wanted to go to counselling because of it. I told him I didn't think we needed counselling and that maybe he did. In hindsight, that was the exact wrong thing to do and I figured that out down the road but in the end, I decided not to do it so I thought it was a non-issue. WRONG. Six years later, it was the second thing (after the selling of his childhood home) that he brought up to the MC we saw one time. If you asked him today, he would tell you that he is STILL upset about it.

I find it interesting that so many men struggle with becoming parents. I think as women, when we carry our kids for nine months and our bodies change so much, we become acutely aware that life is going to be different. It's almost like we use the time spent being pregnant to adjust to it and come to terms with the fact that our lives are about to change. Men don't really have that experience. They see their wife is getting bigger and anticipate the birth but their lives are barely impacted as they can continue to do what they have always done. I'm not sure my H was really prepared and having twins made it even harder as I counted on him a lot more than I might have with one baby. Anyway... points to ponder...

It is 4:40 where I am so I think 12:40 a.m. where you are? Hope you have a great sleep and lots of fun with your daughters when you see them next. (((HUGS)))

[DejaVu6]

Wow... I just read the story about the heart in a box. It really hit home. I believe my H thinks he did try with us. Not in the same way I would have tried, but I know he did not get to this place overnight. Lots to think about. Thank-you for telling me about that FS. (((HUGS)))

[FlySolo]

DejaVu - When I read your post re "putting a pause on his hear" it made me think of the story above.

When I first read the story it reminded me of when D8 was around 2. That is exactly how I felt. I remember feeling trapped but having to hang in there for the children. I grew cold and resentful. I hated being touched by him. The feeling went away after about a year and I thought we were back on track. I never got to the latter stages described in the story but I think on some level and that was probably where his feeling of abandonment started. Hindsight is sometimes not a benefit.

I agree (though accept there are always exceptions): when women first become parents their life changes completely. It is after D12 was born that I became a light sleeper. There was a sixth sense - I would wake up before she started to cry. When they started getting out of bed in the middle of the night, I would wake before their feet hit the ground.

Journal

I have just arrived home. H had taken the kids to a trampolining place so they were still out. I was planning on joining them, but when I called, they were already putting their shoes on, so wasn't worth going.

D8 is still on holidays so H has been spending time with her in the house. Whilst his been here he has sorted through some of D12's old clothes to see what might fit D8, sorted and put out the winter scarves, gloves and hats, and taken out the Halloween decorations ready to put out tomorrow. He has been busy.

He also invited his niece (7) over tomorrow to go trick or treating with the girls. Apparently his mum, his brothers GF and his brother's niece were also at trampoling. His brother's GF and his brother had a fight last night and she was very emotional. His brother and his GF are very hot headed so there was a lot of stuff said in front of their daughter (the 'C' word being one of them). So he (or his mum) invited the niece over tomorrow so the GF could have some time on her own.

I am not sure how I feel about this. I probably would have made the offer to have his niece around tomorrow had I been with them. But somehow, I don't think it is his place to invite people round to the house anymore.

I also asked him if he wanted to stay for dinner. He said the girls had already eaten and he wanted to the get to the gym. I agree with Sandi, we are probably wrong about 80% of the time when we suspect they are lying. Means we are right 20% of the time though. The rational side of me says that why stress myself out trying to work out whether this time it is the 20% or the 80%.

I was expecting him to ask how my trip was but he didn't. I thanked him for watching the girls and for sorting through the stuff. He did not mention he probably saw the cigarette butts in an old flower pot or the late payment notice for one of my bills (I am not very good at life admin and he always hated it). So, we both 180'd a little. I maybe over-egged the niceness and this scared him off as he seemed in a rush to go. Either that or he was desperate to get to the gym.

In any case, he said he will be back at 7:30 tomorrow morning to take our dog for a walk then drive D12 to school. He said that way I don't have to drag D8 out. I am WFH tomorrow and he said he would drop by and spend some time with D8 so that I could get some work done. D8 is still on holidays, so he said he would look after her Thurs and Friday as well and then also on the weekend.

On the topic of seeing him all the time ... I got the childcare schedule for November and he has asked to either see them during the day or have them overnight about 70% of the days He is going away for a week to visit a (male) friend and even then he has asked for them 12 nights. With his week away, working and seeing the girls, I don't know how he is going to fit OW in ?!?!?

Maybe he isn't going to visit his friend. I wonder if he is building a case for 50/50 ??

But, those questions represent the entrance to a cheeseless tunnel, right?

My trip itself was pretty good. Two days was not quite enough to really enjoy being there but the change in scenery was good. I missed the girls though. I missed H too. But I am use to missing him. It is a dull ache at the back of my chest as opposed to something at the forefront.

[DejaVu6]

Geez... this is tough. Cheeseless tunnels... it seems there are many. I stand in front of them all of the time. Some I go down - usually when I haven’t had the time to run things by the people on this board...lol. Pay attention to that rational side of you. That’s usually the side that knows what to do. No point in wondering and no point in asking because they can always lie about things. With all of the time spent with kids, etc... you are right, not much time for OW. That will make her mad soon enough and then the pressure will start. Be the lighthouse. That is something she will not be nor could she be. She is not his wife...she’s just a distraction from himself.

Your H sounds like he is being pretty nice and accommodating. Offering to spend time with your D8 so you can get some work done? Positive signs, I think. Just keep doing what you are doing. I think you are doing great. Your description of it being a dull ache now resonated with me. I feel the same way. Looking forward to the day that the ache is gone altogether. (((HUGS)))

[FlySolo]

Urghhhh ... I did a search for him on instigram the other day and he came up. He used his name and picture so it wasnt too difficult. It was private though - 6 posts, 0 followers and 1 following, It didnt male sense to me at the time. Why post if no-one was following ???

it clicked tonight. He hashtags his photos so anyone who knows about the hashtag can view them. I checked again today and its gone up to 8 posts. why is he so secretive. I have an account, his Ds have am account and all our photos are available to his extended family !!!

He is so effing secretive about everything. There's prob nothing in it. He is probably sharing photos with a group of industry based friends I've never really gotten on with.