Unsure what's next, what to do.....Part II

[Wanted1]

Who is the easier spouse to leave (all other things being equal), a terrible abusive monster, or a genuinely good person? If you left an abusive monster how would you feel? Free? Vindicated? Empowered?

If you left a genuinely good person, and with the passage of time it became apparent to you that your issues have more to do with how you feel about yourself than anyone else, how would you feel? Shame? guilt? embarrassment? failure?

If someone evokes the feelings of guilt, shame and embarrassment within you, are you likely to want to interact with them more or less?

Her avoidance of you has everything to do with how she feels about herself and very little to do with you. She's not looking at you, she's looking in the mirror and doesn't like what she sees.

You will change that narrative when you're having a kick-ass life and she feels left behind. When you get there, I'll be you that she won't be hesitant to interact with you at all.

Acc, I took this comment from another thread and I want to tell you that it makes me feel a lot better and gives me a different perspective on my sitch because my wife has pretty much come out and told me she feels this way due to the affairs, infidelity, etc. I helps me understand her POV so to speak. I'm glad I was reading ballast's thread and came across this. Thank you.

Small update:

W is taking a new job on Friday. Last Friday after work I was in the MBR and I decided to sit down on my computer and just write out some thoughts I had about W and I working together for the past 9 years. At the time, I wasn't for sure if I was going to actually give it to her or not. The letter started out that I was writing this to her not as her husband, but as her co-worker and business partner. I went on to talk about how I probably took her for granted in our work and that I truly appreciated everything she did for our business and that her determination and perseverance are amazing attributes that will serve her well in her new job. I also wrote that I felt so blessed to be able to spend 9 years working alongside her.

So, after I wrote it and was rereading it, I really broke down hard. Of course, the door was open and W was walking by and saw me. She came in and sat on the bed next to me and started crying as well telling me she's so sorry for this. We had a talk about everything and in my moment of weakness showed her what I had wrote. She was extremely grateful for it. (at least that's what she told me).

I then left Sat morning for the weekend to GAL. My IC session was on Monday morning so while I was driving to that I thought about something she had said to me during that talk on Friday night. I wanted some clarification on what she meant so I could share it with my IC. So I texted her asking for it. Here was her response:

I guess I meant what we had discussed basically at the couples session. That I struggle putting my feelings into words that I feel will be “good enough” to understand. A part of me really wants to be able to list everything out cleanly and neatly in list form, as your IC wanted me to be able to do… but to be honest, that feels sort of impossible.
 
I think we both agree that this revolution in our lives requires completely starting over. I think we have talked about and both agree on that. That nothing has or will ever be the same before this experience. Not our relationship, and not you and I ourselves. But again, and it kills me to think of how hurtful this is, but I simply do not want to start over with you. I continue to not be urged to move closer to you. I think it would be possible if I were fully dedicated to you. I think it would be hard as hell, but I believe we could try all options and put in the work. But that does not feel right to me in my heart. I think part of it has to do with how much irreparable pain I’ve caused you. It consumes me. And I know you said that forgiveness is possible for you if we throw away the old relationship and start anew, but I’m not sure that level of forgiveness is possible for me, towards myself and towards the toxicity we have created for 12 years. I feel that the lack of communication, lack of intimacy, my affair(s), the lack of “caring” we both share towards one another, verbal and non-verbal criticizing/attacks on one another, the lack of attention and time we have put into our relationship, on and on, all stem from the deep disrespect we have grown to foster in our marriage and toward one another. And that our marriage is too deeply intertwined with dishonesty, betrayal, and disrespect. I have not treated you as a husband should be treated. I don’t know how to “define” all of these feelings. I don’t know if that’s the idea your IC was referencing when she said there is “too much water under the bridge” or not.

I didn't respond to the text and went to IC. These statements I guess sort of line up with what Acc posted and I quoted above, I would say. Nothing has really happened in the meantime. W went to her IC yesterday not sure how it went because I didn't ask which was something I had been doing the past. I'm continuing to do my best DBing. Aside from the Friday night break down and the text asking for the clarification.

[SteveLW]

I didn't respond to the text and went to IC. These statements I guess sort of line up with what Acc posted and I quoted above, I would say. Nothing has really happened in the meantime. W went to her IC yesterday not sure how it went because I didn't ask which was something I had been doing the past. I'm continuing to do my best DBing. Aside from the Friday night break down and the text asking for the clarification.

The problem Wanted, and this is hard for newbies to understand, is that doing your best DBing is consistency. What happened Friday, and then the text, that is pressure. That is pursuit. And it undermines everything else you might be doing right. It is such a temptation to look at DBing and say "well, I've been doing it 95% of the way well, but failing in 5%". That 5% will kill you. And it is necessary for you to understand that. DBing cannot be successful without consistency.

Now, when someone messes up and makes a mistake, there is nothing you can do about that. All you can do is to resolve to start over and be better from that point forward.CONSISTENCY over time is the key. Go read all these other threads. You will see those that struggle the most are the ones that have the most mistakes. "I am DBing, but I made a mistake last night." "I have been DBing consistently for the last 5 days but this morning slipped up." Every slip up takes you backwards. You lose ground. True all you can do is start trying again, but learning from those mistakes is paramount. It is impossible to be successful without learning from your slip up and moving forward.

The letter. The text. They all give her the same message: he is still attached to me and I can have him back anytime I want him. The garbage about crying due to the pain she caused. And saying she feels like she is past the point of no return due the irreparable pain she has caused is ALL bunk. It is an effort to "let you down easy". The fact is that deep down she knows she can have you back.....anytime she wants. And that makes her not want it.

That is why DBing is effective. Because once you truly detach, let go, GAL (showing her you will be fine without her), and at time same time 180 on your own toxic behavior, that is when she feels like she is losing you, that she won't be able to have you back. And for many (not all) people that makes them want you back! It is the weirdest dynamic.

So what you've done with the letter. And the text. Is showed her that she can still have you back. Her excuse for not being open to it is all of the words (and I emphasis words because that is all they are) that she typed in response to your text. I heard similar things verbally from my W. "I tried for 18 years!" "There is too much damage!" "The relationship has suffered too much trauma to be saved." It is all excuses for her to continue down this wayward path that she is on.

DBing shows her that not only won't you stand in her way, but that you are going to be just fine no matter what she decides. When you DB really well you will know it because she will come to you and temp check you. "Is he really moving on? Or can I still have him back if I want him!?" Sometimes it takes the form of an accusation "I know you much be seeing someone!" But it will come.

In my sitch, when I started to be very consistent in my DBing, my W started to question her decision. I got counseling started, I GAL, I 180'd, and I detached. I talked to a lawyer. Offered to help her find a job. Finally quit snooping and confronting her. And all of that said to her "plan B is slipping away, and plan A has no solid footing!" And that made her question herself. At the same time by DBing was doing one thing she never expected......it was making her respect me again.

Marriages don't die due to a lack of attraction. Attraction is a red-herring. A W has to be able to respect her husband to feel attracted to him. You work on gaining back her respect, you will have a chance of attracting her back, and that can save your marriage. And guess what....crying over a letter you wrote and texting her seeking needy reassurance ain't going to do it!!

[LH19]

W,

Boy you are still learning the hard way. Trying to get a reaction from her and it ends up blowing up in your face. Its fine to write those letters and then rip them up or burn them. I can guarantee that letter had the opposite effect on her. She's starting to feel sorry for you. That's not attractive. You keep this up and you won't even be plan B you will be plan C or D.

Here's what I hear in the text blah, blah, blah yes it could work if we were both committed but I don't feel like it.

Same as everyone here. Again I will quote my MC " I have a 100% success rate when both parties are committed and divorce is not an option".

No more letters, no more relationship talks, no more clarifying texts. Focus on your kids, exercise, detach and GAL.

[Wanted1]

Steve and LH,

I appreciate all of it. I know I need to focus all of my attention (outside of work and kids, of course) into successfully DBing. It is paramount for myself. That I know.

I feel like I'm getting there slowly. I no longer have the "urge" to talk R with her anymore. I guess the true test will be if she ends up coming to me to talk if I have the strength to not engage in any R talk. I think I will certainly listen and focus on it not effecting me one way or the other, but I'm done telling her what or how I feel. I've said everything I can possibly say and even if I think of more things they are just a different rendition of what's already been said. I need to continue to focus on the obvious fact that "pursuing" will only lead to a D.

[Wanted1]

A couple questions:

First, my W starts her new job on Friday. We've always worked together for those of you who haven't read about my sitch previously. When she gets home on Friday after her first day, do I ask her how it went, etc.? It seems to me that I should but wanted to run it by everyone. I've been trying not to initiate random conversation with her but I feel like this wouldn't fall into the category of "random."

Second, we had to discuss what the plans are for Thanksgiving, maybe a bit prematurely, but we had other family members asking what our plans were so they could plan accordingly. It was from my side of the family, so I approached W last week about what her/our plans were going to be. She told me her brother is planning on being back to her parent's house for Thanksgiving, so she would like to go out there (4 hour drive from where we live). I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not. I don't remember her exact response but it was somewhat apparent that she wanted me to come with. So, in essence, I was invited to share in the holiday with her, her family and our kids.

Not to go into too much detail, but Monday was not a good day for me. For a number of reasons. A lot of work stuff didn't go as planned, had some car issues with these dumb keyless fobs and push button start they have now and I suppose on top of all of that, the text I referred to before from W before my IC session didn't help either. Needless to say, I was kind of in one of those moods that I probably should be in more often to help me detach. I don't think I was angry or resentful but regardless, I was in the #@$% it mindset and at that point didn't really care whether this worked out in the end or not. Like I said, I need to probably be in that mindset permanently. So, I got to thinking about whether or not I should take W up on having Thanksgiving together. Part of me really wanted to just turn it down and then just go somewhere by myself for the long weekend to sort of "get away" and maybe recalibrate. I brought this up to my IC and she immediately told me if W invited me that I should go and that it would be nice for the kids to have me there as well more for the fact of not having to answer questions why Daddy isn't with them.

I was just wanting some advice from some of you guys? Do I just go along and try to enjoy possibly one last holiday together as a "family" or should I tell her I might just make my own plans? I don't think I would go celebrate the holiday with my side of the family because 1) I would be peppered with tons of questions about what's going on and 2) it would be pretty depressing spending it with them and not having at least my kids there and knowing they were all together with W's family. I would much prefer just going somewhere by myself.

[Ready2Change]

And to be clear, he is talking about with her, not here.

Yes with her. Thanks for clarifying. Steve is wise. listen to every word this man speaks. Always ask yourself, what would Steve recommend.

That 5% will kill you

Boy you are still learning the hard way.

Do you know the hot stove story? Please don't touch the stove, it is hot, you will get burned if you touch it.


Dude, I know this is hard. It is one of the hardest things to go through. This is one big test. Women test men. Pass this test.

When she gets home on Friday after her first day, do I ask her how it went, etc.? It seems to me that I should but wanted to run it by everyone.

NO. Let her come to you.

so I approached W last week about what her/our plans were going to be. She told me her brother is planning on being back to her parent's house for Thanksgiving, so she would like to go out there (4 hour drive from where we live). I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not. I don't remember her exact response but it was somewhat apparent that she wanted me to come with. So, in essence, I was invited to share in the holiday with her, her family and our kids.

Why did I highlight the above words?

[Ready2Change]

I like this statement:

"I decided I will be spending thanksgiving with my parents."

That does not mean you have to use it. You should understand why it is an option.

Is your wife committed to the marriage?
Is your wife in love with you?
Has your wife shown remorse?
Does my wife REALLY want me there?


List out many more questions like this.
Lots of YES's = YES go.
Lot's of NO's = Stop pursing and don't go.


Really think about each of your choices and all the REAL consequences. Make a choice and live with the consequences.

Is it better for you to not go and have her miss you?
Or is it better to go show all your positive changes?
Or go and have a chance to do a 5% that kills you?

[LH19]

I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not.

I would be curious to know the exact conversation. If it was you saying "would it be ok if I go with you?" That's weak.

Right after my W filed for D I was invited to her Aunts for Easter. I declined because it would have been award for me. She took the kids to her Aunts I went to my moms. The kids asked where I was the ex said Grandmas. No more questions.

If you don't want to go don't go. If you want to have one more family Thanksgiving then go.

It's really all about your expectations. Whether you ask her how her day went or you don't it's not going to change anything. Whether you go to Thanksgiving or not it is not going to change anything.

I am going to be really honest with you and give you MY opinion. Based on the text your W sent you she is going to D you. Now you have two choices, you can go out like an alpha male or you can go out like a beta male. Which choice do you think has a better chance at recon?

[Wanted1]

Answered in the quote:

I like this statement:

"I decided I will be spending thanksgiving with my parents."

That does not mean you have to use it. You should understand why it is an option.

Is your wife committed to the marriage? Not at this time
Is your wife in love with you? No clue, but judging my her actions, No.
Has your wife shown remorse? Some. Not as much as I would like.
Does my wife REALLY want me there? Hard to say or read what she 'wants'.


List out many more questions like this.
Lots of YES's = YES go.
Lot's of NO's = Stop pursing and don't go.


Really think about each of your choices and all the REAL consequences. Make a choice and live with the consequences.

Is it better for you to not go and have her miss you? I'm not sure she would miss me since she will be around her family whom she doesn't see very often
Or is it better to go show all your positive changes? Probably wouldn't hurt
Or go and have a chance to do a 5% that kills you? I'm pretty adamant and confident that I won't slip up if I go.

[Wanted1]

I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not.

I would be curious to know the exact conversation. If it was you saying "would it be ok if I go with you?" That's weak.

Right after my W filed for D I was invited to her Aunts for Easter. I declined because it would have been award for me. She took the kids to her Aunts I went to my moms. The kids asked where I was the ex said Grandmas. No more questions.

If you don't want to go don't go. If you want to have one more family Thanksgiving then go.

It's really all about your expectations. Whether you ask her how her day went or you don't it's not going to change anything. Whether you go to Thanksgiving or not it is not going to change anything.

I am going to be really honest with you and give you MY opinion. Based on the text your W sent you she is going to D you. Now you have two choices, you can go out like an alpha male or you can go out like a beta male. Which choice do you think has a better chance at recon?

I did not say "would it be ok if I go?" It was more along the lines of "I could bring the kids down to (where she's going to be working now) and you could leave on Wednesday night to head out to your parents. I'm not sure what your thoughts are on me going or not. If you would like me to go, we can just leave a car there and pick it up on the way back otherwise I will just drop them off and go back home."

It went something like that. I did NOT ask if it would be ok for me to go. I'm sure of that.

The asking about her day is more about maybe a 180 for me I guess? I don't want to be silent because she might imply that I'm mad or upset that she took this job and I don't "care" about how her first day went. If I ask and seem genuinely interested, it would show her that I care about her and how her day went and maybe show to her that I'm fine/OK with her taking this new job. I don't know....

She's told me 3-4 times that she's never once told herself that she's completely done and there is no chance at R. HOWEVER, none of her actions or frankly nothing else she has said really confirms that is what she believes or is thinking. She's just said that statement a couple different times and if I go along with the understanding to believe nothing she says, I have come to the conclusion that she's probably just saying that to appease me at this point. On the other hand, there is so much she's trying to deal with on a personal level right now I don't really know if she does know what she wants. I'm going on low expectations and assuming she wants a D and am slowly accepting it and trying to stay positive that I'll be just fine if it goes that way.

The part that really bugs, concerns and disappoints me is that I'm not really even asking her to R at this point. I'm simply asking her if she would be open to TRYING to work on our M to see if we can R. To actively work in a healthy manner (marital counseling, retrouvaille, etc.) to see if we can't make things work which we've never done, ever, in the past. I'm just astounded that she's willing to give up half of the time with our kids without even trying to see if we can make it work. This is what just shocks the hell out of me. I don't understand it.

I guess there are essentially two things that might work in my favor. 1 being the new job is going to give her way less time with the kids (1 hr commute one way), so she's going to be missing out on getting them ready for school, dropping them off at school, picking them up from school and more than likely feeding/having supper with them. 2 is financially. She's got it all budgeted out and she will just barely make ends meet with all of her financial obligations moving forward. That's if/when she moves out of our house and starts on her own. I'm a little concerned that she's just staying in the home under the guise that she's trying to decide what to do to more or less build up a little financial cushion and then when she feels comfortable financially she will move out. Not going to lie, if that's what's really going to happen, I'm not sure if our co-parenting relationship moving forward will be the best. I'll be livid. But I also don't really know what I can do about that.