Introduction

[TJT]

Well here's a quick update, after I just went to dinner with other people here.

Sat and chatted casually. Generally I did pretty good. Overall still couldn't shake the stupid feeling of "none of this matters". Having a good time, enjoying a particular food, even the times when I feel content by myself, I always come back to "so what?" I want to share it with someone, have someone who knows me intimately to listen, etc. I am extremely resentful of how much meaning he's stripped from my life by his choices and with that, the little joy I am able to feel. It comes in moments, and I feel proud in those moments and like things will be ok, but when it wanes away I still feel left with nothing. I hope that's just because of how new it still is and will get better with time.

[DejaVu6]

I totally get what you mean TJT. I have faith it will get better with time. I am continuing to soul search and to try to figure out what it is about me that becomes so attached to a man like my H. Currently, he is not the kind of man I should even want to be around and given what I know of his history (I chalked it up to him being young at the time), I’m not sure he ever was. Keep GAL. It will get better with time. Those moments of good feelings will increase and the moments of sadness decrease. Choose your focus. Be proud of yourself... you have earned it. (((HUGS)))

P.S. I get what how you felt about taking off your rings. I still wear my wedding band. Lately I’ve been thinking I should take it off but I haven’t been able to bring myself to do it yet. I am still married - legally and emotionally. In time I might feel differently.

[ovrrnbw]

What does taking off the ring really do? I took mine off, but I was never sure why. For me, taking off the ring was reaction. Instead of acting from my own morals, I reacted to a WW. I let a crazy cheater dictate how I act.

Make sure you are doing it for your own reasons and not the WAS's.

[TJT]

Thank you DejaVu for sharing you feel this way too!

Ovrrnbw, I felt it was part of preparing myself for my H to not come back... I have questioned it, definitely, because we are still technically married.

Well, small correction - at first I did it because he did it, and I felt like me continuing to wear my rings while he wasn't was one of those things that would make me look needy and desperate.

At this point, he's been out of the house for almost 2 months, and he never initiates contact. I've initiated twice for very practical reasons relating to money, and that's it. There's been nothing else to it.

So I haven't been wearing my rings since, thinking I would just be fooling myself and I need to prepare as if we are getting a divorce. I felt like maybe it would help me detach.

And, while I know this shouldn't be a factor in terms of what I do in my own life, it would definitely be hard for me to justify to friends/family why I am still wearing my rings when most of them know at this point what's been happening. I feel like they will think I am just a doormat and why should I wear my rings when he's moved out, hasn't contacted me at all, and seems to be actively seeing OW? I mean how does one explain that without sounding really dumb? I guess I could simply say that I'm not ready to make myself "available" yet (which is definitely true, although I have equally questioned whether not wearing my rings and potentially "allowing" for friendlier relationships with other men would be healthy too. Granted I know I am NOT ready to try to have another relationship or even a fling, I'm just talking about innocent things that could help myself detach and realize what else is out there vs. being stuck in this mindset that I will never be able to find anyone else again).

P.S. He doesn't know who all knows, or what specifically I've told them. P.P.S. I still struggle with the decisions I made on that because on one hand I absolutely think that people I interact with regularly knowing my sitch has helped keep me sane while I was feeling like I wanted to spiral out of control into depression, but at the same time I do weirdly wish that nobody knew at all (maybe just me wanting things to go back to "normal"). I just honestly don't see how I could have gotten to where I am now where at least I feel somewhat stable without having told the folks I told so they could be there for me.

I will say before I left for my trip I physically took them out and looked at them. It did definitely make me sad because my ring is absolutely gorgeous and he did a custom thing on it that meant SO much to us... and it's another thing that can cause me to get resentful and wonder how we went from that to where we are now. And I just feel doomsday about everything... nobody plans to have more than one marriage, and here I am thinking that one day, even IF I meet another man and want to marry him, nothing will ever be like it was the first time. How could I ever think of a different ring as perfect as the one I have now? How could I even think about a wedding ceremony with someone new as a special thing anymore?

I know people say you create new memories and new things that mean things to you with a new person, it just seems like a stretch to me. I will have to get to a point where I don't WANT the ring my H gave me because I don't WANT the relationship with my H. That just seems SO far into the future, and I regularly question whether I'm capable of losing that feeling for him at all, to the point where more often than not I am finding myself thinking, "It's either him or I'm going to choose to be single for the rest of my life!" Yes, my logical brain realizes how ridiculous that sounds. But I know emotional brain needs to get on the same page and for me I just know that if it doesn't, logic doesn't matter.

All of this does make me rethink my decision not to wear them though. I have started to feel a little more like "fine, he can do whatever he wants" so almost like me being more "secure" in where I'm at, to where maybe putting the rings back on isn't as much of a "thing" for me now... but I just want to be careful it doesn't put me two steps back.

Meanwhile, the whole thing that we've been separated two months and he never initiates contact and is just living whatever life he is living does have me very concerned. Reading a lot of other sitches, it always seems they try to make their way back or waffle for a longer period of time. I read a great majority of Kech's sitch and I had to get to that boundary-setting part pretty quickly where once I found out the extent of his PA and what he did in our home, I HAD to give him the option of either working on the marriage or getting out. He got out and doesn't seem like he's concerned about me ever since.

Still torn about me filing myself if he's not going to, but it's pretty much entirely related to logical risk. I'll post about that again and more details on my thoughts later.

[DejaVu6]

I totally know what you mean about allowing “friendlier” relationships with other men. I’ve thought that too. I think because whether my H is having an A or not, I’m pretty sure he is sitting at his place feeling entitled to one. He is a part-time parent...sees his kids a few times a week for a few hours...has most of his nights free and, in his mind, he has been “single” for a long time. I’m sure he has justified it a 1,000 ways. I, on the other hand, have been without my H, in my mind, for only two months. And I don’t believe in getting involved with anyone unless I am emotionally free to do so. As lonely as I might feel some nights, I can’t really justify seeking someone else out just to feel less lonely. I think I need to grieve the loss of my M in the right way which, of course, is always the hardest way. I know, however, that my H will not do that. He will search out ways not to feel anything and to take a short cut and to not face the things he has done. Early on in our sitch, he came very close to facing himself...wanted to come home, make amends, admitted to feeling ashamed and not wanting to face anyone, said he was sorry and could never be sorry enough... and then one week later... gone. I have not seen him any signs of uncertainty since. I honestly think we would be NC like you if it weren’t for the kids. In some ways, that might be better for me but I don’t know. Mostly I would just like to run off to a tropical island for a month or two.

[TJT]

One other question I have is around SM. In my case, I'm specifically wondering how to use it (or not) as it pertains to GALing.

For example, there are things I have thought about that I would normally post (when I'm out at a nice place with a friend, or when I went to a concert with my mom). But I haven't posted about any of that because it didn't feel authentic, similar to what I said before I suppose, with everything else going on. Like hey here's me looking happy at a concert, even though I'm really not!

BUT, that has made me wonder whether I SHOULD post so my H sees what I am doing... perhaps drum up his curiosity about how I'm doing, etc. Because in my case, there is NO other interaction happening, and I feel like for him it will be "out of sight, out of mind".

On the other hand, I've thought that maybe no interaction + not being able to see anything on SM would make him more curious since he won't know anything about what I'm doing whatsoever.

Of course I fear that if I start posting and looking happy doing things without him he will just continue to reinforce in his own mind the story that he is doing the right thing (because of how he used the "you deserve better" cop outs and such when the details of his A came out). I think I've mentioned this before...this aspect of how my H is behaving is the hardest one to read, because I'm positive he does a lot things to mask his own guilt and THIS is why I'm so worried about my own actions. I know if I do anything that either makes him feel more guilty OR reinforces the story he's told himself, it may continue to dig us deeper into a hole.

This is why I have a hard time with just doing whatever I feel like, not based off of his reactions. I read in one of the other threads that it's more about me not doing things that will make him not want to come back, vs. doing things that will intentionally get him back, because it has to be HIS decision. So I get that...but it seems some of what I do or don't do is related to what he could see as reasons not to come back.

Our anniversary is coming up next month and I continue to dread it. I'm trying not to have any expectations, but I am absolutely going to be wondering what will happen that day. Even beyond him, like if his parents will say anything or if everyone is just going to act like nothing ever happened that day 4 years ago...

I do have a level of confidence that he WILL think of it, at least, when it comes. Whether he's with OW, whether he's working, whatever it is... I may not ever know for sure that he did think of it, or what specifically he thought about, but surely he would be nothing more than a ghost if that day can come and go without it even crossing his mind.

Speaking of his parents, I'm also debating whether it's okay for me to reach out to them and just tell them I'm thinking of them and miss them, etc. No ulterior motives there, just the truth. With the holidays coming up, it's just going to be hard not to do the usual things and go see them and all that.

[TJT]

As lonely as I might feel some nights, I can’t really justify seeking someone else out just to feel less lonely. I think I need to grieve the loss of my M in the right way which, of course, is always the hardest way. I know, however, that my H will not do that. He will search out ways not to feel anything and to take a short cut and to not face the things he has done.

Yes, exactly. We can't just "replace" the closeness we had with our H!

Early on in our sitch, he came very close to facing himself...wanted to come home, make amends, admitted to feeling ashamed and not wanting to face anyone, said he was sorry and could never be sorry enough... and then one week later... gone. I have not seen him any signs of uncertainty since.

Ugh... that is terrible. And again, so sad that there isn't more awareness and tools and acceptance for relationship issues, which I definitely feel is a factor in a lot of our situations, especially for men due to social norms placed upon them. I've legitimately thought about doing a bunch of research and starting speaking tours on the variety of things I've learned/realized through this experience so far!!

I honestly think we would be NC like you if it weren’t for the kids. In some ways, that might be better for me but I don’t know. Mostly I would just like to run off to a tropical island for a month or two.

I can see how NC would be easier than having to work things out with kids when otherwise things don't seem to be going anywhere. I definitely recognized that while I wanted my husband to be around, him staying at the house only when he had his son and then otherwise staying at a friend's was just too much of a rollercoaster for me to deal with. I needed him to either be there or not be there so my mind wasn't constantly shifting from one "setting" to another each week.

I would agree with you on the island part! I have a friend who wants me to go to to Mexico for her birthday and while it kind of terrifies me I also think it would be a great thing. But then I hold myself back because financially it doesn't seem like a good idea... I mean here I am, strapped with a new house that only I'm paying for, HOA dues are coming up in January, I have no savings left, I have no idea how consistent he will be with the money each month... I just feel stuck in all ways!

And that reminds me of yet another question, about whether I should "follow up" with him at some point if I don't see any money being transferred this month... it's obviously a big deal for me, but literally the only alternative/consequence I can offer if he doesn't is that I will have to file just to get the financial stuff separated that I otherwise can't without a divorce decree. So if I'm not actually at a point where I want to file, I feel like continuing to ask him about the status of money he owes me opens up the opportunity for him to continue saying he will even if it doesn't really happen, and then I won't have any other boundary options at my disposal to mitigate that! Ughhh.

[DejaVu6]

I think it is okay if you reach out - especially if you are close to them. My H’s mom lives with me. How nuts is that? She will always be in my life and in the life of my kids. If you want to tell them you miss them, that’s okay. Just be careful. Parents can put pressure on the WH and it can backfire. Try not to badmouth him. Tough I know when he is being such a pr*ck.

TJT... I know this is beyond heartbreaking and difficult. I know... I am going through it. But you need to find a way to take your focus off your H and put it onto you. What advice would you give a friend if they were in the same situation? Follow it. Your H may think of you, he may not. It is important to come to terms with the fact that right now he is GONE...and he may not come back. You need to be prepared for that. You sound like a pretty amazing, strong, accomplished and capable woman. You need to call on those great qualities, DB and GAL. It is the only way. I know...everything in you wants to do otherwise. You need to know that the things you instinctively want to do WILL NOT work.

Re: SM. Post if you want but only do it if you have no expectations. I, for one, have avoided SM like the plague. I just find it too difficult... like I am lying every time I go on it. I still have a lot of shame. I know, I know... I am not the one that lied to his spouse for YEARS... I am just the person who believed him. Sadly...this is not my first marriage, it is my second. My first ended mutually...two good friends (still are) who were going different directions and parted amicably. I thought I had learned EVERYTHING I needed to know about having a successful marriage but apparently I did not. I was 32 and met my H when I was 37. Sparks flew, we were inseparable from almost the second we met. I loved him with all my heart and still do. Trying to figure out a way to let him go without losing that love. He makes it very, very hard.

Make tomorrow a good day. (((HUGS)))

[Accuray]

so I'm always trying to determine what his current expectation is so that I can figure out what the "right" 180 is that might have the most impact. And that's made even MORE difficult since I'm dealing with someone who I know doesn't acknowledge, let alone make transparent, his true feelings or emotions that he's dealing with, and thus why in my last post I wrote about being so conflicted about whether his actions are really HIM or a symptom of something else.

I don't really think 180 works like that -- if a wayward spouse thinks you're just "peacocking changes" for their benefit, it will lead to two things:

(1). They will resent you more, because if you can so easily act this way now, why didn't you do it before when it was causing them pain?

(2). They will perceive it as a ploy to get them back and will believe as soon as they come back, you'll just go back to whatever you were doing before because you got what you wanted.

For 180 to be credible, it has to be a change in you even when no one is watching. It needs to be a course change that just becomes part of who you are, through repetition, such that you don't have to think about it anymore, it just happens.

That takes a lot of work and focused effort, and that's not going to happen unless its a change you believe in and you want to make for yourself!

Usually when a wayward leaves they have a laundry list of complaints. In my case I could pretty much categorize them into (1) invented (what she's saying really didn't happen), (2) completely valid (they are things I wasn't proud of that would probably bother anyone), (3) not bought in (I could validate how she perceived things, but those weren't changes I was willing to make because of who I am)

For the invented complaints, I could pretty much ignore them. For the completely valid complaints, those are the ones I chose to 180 because I truly believed those changes would serve me well with everyone I interacted with. For the "not bought in" those required more thought. If someone complains that you're liberal you may decide that you're just not willing to become a conservative for instance. Your integrity comes into play for some of those an you have to fall back on who you are.

Point is, 180 is for you, not for him.

This also means there are people I have not told about my sitch yet who are likely going to find out this week, either by noticing the lack of rings or perhaps by asking about H..

When I got divorced, I was afraid I was going to be walking around with a "scarlet D" hanging around my neck that would label me as flawed, or a failure.

What I found is that most people really just don't care any more than they care what brand of underwear you wear. It's more of a "she's divorced, she's married, who cares?"

When people notice the change, some will be morbidly curious and want to hear some awful story to satisfy their own need to indulge their darker impulses, some people literally will make nothing of it, but most people will be supportive in ways that will surprise you.

Over time, everyone will trend toward "not an issue" and being divorced will in no way define you.

Acc

[TJT]

I thought I had learned EVERYTHING I needed to know about having a successful marriage but apparently I did not. I was 32 and met my H when I was 37. Sparks flew, we were inseparable from almost the second we met. I loved him with all my heart and still do. Trying to figure out a way to let him go without losing that love. He makes it very, very hard.

Ugh... I am so sorry this has happened to you. It makes me even more terrified of the future and the possibility that even if I meet someone new, it could end just as badly! It also makes me that much more frustrated that our SOs seem to be taking a walk in the park with the OWs/OMs... or at the very least, that the prospect of things not working out somehow doesn't terrify them too!

Over the past few days that frustration has been getting to me again. I'm not thinking about it all the time, but I'm definitely circling back to those feeling of "if only he would just do X..."

@Acc, I know there are absolutely things that I need to work on doing better just to be a better person, regardless of whether he's here or not. With respect to 180s, though, maybe I'm getting confused but I thought those were more situational changes (that, of course, should be sustained once you find something that works in the same cycles of interaction). But to be differentiated from those things that we need to change as a core person, with or without our SO..

What I'm saying is that I feel, and have felt for some time, that even when I change my behavior, there is no change on his side. This DID NOT mean I stopped, to be clear. And later on, he would admit that he noticed my changes, and appreciated them, but it would not be something I would have known from HIS behavior...in other words, it seems he did like certain changes but for some reason it simply wasn't enough, for lack of any other way to explain it.

I suppose you could argue that I could try changing again to see what would result in more than just appreciation, but to me this all honestly points to my H being completely distracted/uninvested, and that's why no matter what I would do, it never made a difference (and in some cases, there's only so much one can try). As I read DB there are some things that I tried doing (without knowing they were part of DBing). This is also what led me to actually letting more things go and being more passive about certain issues, because I recognized that maybe the simple act of "doing" things was putting pressure.

Recounting all of this is definitely bringing up some anger in me. I felt/feel damned if I do, damned if I don't, in that I am willing to continue making any changes and figuring out what works with him, but I honestly have had pretty much nothing to work with. I feel like our entire marriage could be saved if he could make ONE small change on his part to simply OPEN UP, RECEIVE, ACKNOWLEDGE... even if that leads to me doing 50 more on mine...but because he won't, or doesn't want to, or whatever, he is choosing another way that he thinks will be "easier".

And I'm not saying that any change, no matter how small, should just be super easy for him, but compared to having to start over with someone completely new and putting your faith in thinking that it won't happen with them? It seems extremely short-sighted, to say the least! And I know this is not my problem, but I also know it can be "fixed", and thirdly know that it's not my job to do the fixing! That cycle is like water torture, such a simple yet deeply maddening problem.

But in any case, back to the point - specifically what I'm trying to say at this particular moment in my sitch is that this is the first time we've ever been NC. I don't know what "more of the same" IS in this case because we've never done this before! So that's what I mean when I say I'm trying to predict what his expectation of me would be in this case, based off what he knows about me, so that I can adjust appropriately.

For example, I recognized early on that he was starting to pull away and text me less, etc. So that's when I stopped reaching out to him about anything unless absolutely needed, thinking that was the 180. (And this is a good example for why I thought this was different than the "permanent" changes, Acc - because say if we were to get back together, I assume me texting only when I absolutely need him would not be something I'd want to sustain in the happy relationship!)

But NOW, based on other things he had said to me in the past, I'm wondering if he really WANTS me to continue reaching out (not necessarily chasing, of course) to make him feel needed, you know? Because the more I don't contact him and just keep living my life, the more I can see I am playing into his narrative of me not "needing" him (which in his mind seems to translate into not being the provider or "man" he wants to be in a relationship).

If I had to choose between the former option (pulling back) and the latter (making him feel needed), I would honestly say the latter is what he would not expect of me, and thus is something I'd love to work on doing. However, in a situation like mine where he's moved out and may be actively with OW, I'm a little confused on whether that's an option anymore, or if NC is the ONLY option at this point??

For the record, he did transfer the money we discussed to cover his insurance last week... I wanted to say "thanks" or "I appreciate it", or whatever, but I didn't. And again, on one hand it's like, this is his obligation...so I don't want to minimize myself or make it seem like he's doing me favors when this is just his responsibility. But on the other hand, yeah, I'm appreciative he's not just skipping out on things. Ugh, I just hate this and how every little thing is now a thing!

Anyway, Acc, thanks for sharing your initial feelings on being divorced and the reality of how people seem to react. I would agree, after my last week away from home doing work things, that this seemed to be the case and most of it is in my head (although, I did have someone a bit older than me refer to me as "kid", which I feel would be less likely to happen if I was wearing a ring on my finger since it sort of automatically puts you in a certain minimum age perception).