I was cold and short with my W this morning dropping D4 off at school. I did not acknowledge her presence which was noticed by her co-workers. W asked what was going on. I said "nothing".
OK so you mentioned getting your balls back and getting rid of NGS but there it is right there. When you are cold to someone and when asked what is wrong and you reply "nothing", that is the very definition of passive/ aggressive behavior and very typical of NG behavior. So first, WHY were you cold? Try to dig down to the core reason for that. Anger over your situation? Frustrated that W isn't responding to your DB'ing? I don't know, only you do and you need to figure out what it is and tackle how to address it as an alpha male and not a NG.
Now the detailed work of fixing my NGS comes into play. Where do I draw the line between expressing that "I am OK (when I'm clearly bothered by my sitch)" and not spill my guts on my true feelings? Are there any resources/books I can access? I will bring this up to my support group this week.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by pain18
W then went on about me distancing myself and "not talking to her like a normal person". I validated and told her that I am good.
That's the complete opposite of validation, you made it all about YOU. Validation is understanding HER feelings and acknowledging them. "I hear you saying you felt I was being cold and indifferent, is that how I made you feel?" "Yes, that's exactly it." "I can understand why it made you feel that way, I am sorry and I will work on changing that."
That's key to validation? Not make it about me but about W?
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by pain18
I do feel that I am carrying myself into the "cold, rude" territory, which is not DBing.
It's not. So remind yourself what your goals are, ask yourself if what you're doing is getting you closer to your goals or farther away. Ask yourself that as many times a day as you need to!
The feeling changes day to day. Sometimes I feel like I'm progressing. Other days I feel like I'm regressing. Is inconsistency a part of this growth?
Now the detailed work of fixing my NGS comes into play. Where do I draw the line between expressing that "I am OK (when I'm clearly bothered by my sitch)" and not spill my guts on my true feelings? Are there any resources/books I can access? I will bring this up to my support group this week.
Well DB'ing does say to act "as if". Meaning even if you are hurting and miserable inside you don't show it to your W and kids. In a normal relationship it is healthy to share your feelings with your SO. A lot of us end up here in part because we don't, or can't, or don't know how because we've been raised to keep it all inside. Anyway the problem with being BD'd is from that point until recon you are no longer in a "normal" R, so you shouldn't make it a routine to spill your feelings out to her. That said, I think in this particular case then first you should try not to be so cold/ indifferent towards her to begin with but if you can't help it and she asks you what is wrong then do give her a truthful reply. Maybe something like "I'm sorry, I'm not trying to take things out on you but I am just very frustrated about our situation and can't help acting like this sometimes, but I will try and work on it." Just make sure that you don't blame her, if you are sharing feelings then make it strictly about YOUR feelings. Your response should have a lot of "I" in it and little to no "you".
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That's key to validation? Not make it about me but about W?
Validation is trying to get someone to share their feelings, and then when they do, to simply acknowledge them. It is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ negotiating/ explaining/ reasoning/ debating/ arguing. It is just seeking understanding. We men think every problem is presented to us as an opportunity to fix something. So if our W says "OMG I have had it with my boss, she never listens and I just want to kill her." We immediately look for ways to fix it. "Oh really? Well maybe she did it because you were rude to her? Or didn't get your work done? Maybe you should talk to her about it? Maybe you should email her instead of talking to her so she doesn't yell? Maybe you should tell her boss that she's being a 3itch to you? Etc. etc. That is NOT what women want us to do! They simply want validation. "Oh wow, that sounds very frustrating, is that how it makes you feel? I am sorry you're going through that, you really deserve to be treated better especially after everything you have done for your office, you are an amazing worker." Trying to fix it just makes it worse, it makes her think you are blaming her. But validating, she comes away thinking "wow he really gets it, he understands what I am going through and that makes me feel closer to him."
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The feeling changes day to day. Sometimes I feel like I'm progressing. Other days I feel like I'm regressing. Is inconsistency a part of this growth?
Recovery is not linear. We all have (or had) good days and bad days. Times we felt on top of the world and times we felt like crawling under a rock. It's definitely normal. Just hang in there and stick to DB'ing. The nice thing about DB'ing is it gives you a template for how to behave, so when you start spinning and feeling like you are losing control you can stop and say "what is proper DB'ing here" and it helps get you back on track.
Now the detailed work of fixing my NGS comes into play. Where do I draw the line between expressing that "I am OK (when I'm clearly bothered by my sitch)" and not spill my guts on my true feelings?
Don't discuss your feelings with her......period. Don't try to verbally express to her that you are okay or not okay. Your actions/behavior and attitude does all the necessary expressing. Frankly, the WW really doesn't care if you are okay or not. As for as she's concerned, everything is about her. She isn't interested in hearing about you.
The men in your NG support group may be able to help you in defining where to draw lines. As with most men who has NGS, I think it is initially difficult for you to know how to balance some of these areas/issues. It's difficult for some of them to understand how to implement some of the 37 rules, without more explanation. For instance, showing that you have a positive mental attitude, having a pleasant facial expression, being civil, etc...….sounds confusing for some men with NGS when we come along and tell him something that may sound a bit differently. It's not a different message, but it's his mindset toward his situation that's causing most of the confusion For example this rule means he should have this type of attitude and pleasant facial expression toward his family, people, and life in general. He doesn't need to go around with his lower lip dragging the floor or show her how devastated he feels, b/c this type of action makes him appear "weak" in the eyes of a WW. That's not to say he doesn't take serious things seriously.
Here's the thing...….you are not "happy" with her actions & choices. If you have a WW who has OM, you don't have to pretend that you are jumping for joy over what she's done........but neither should you go the extreme opposite and think she's going to respond toward your sadness and pain in some compassionate way. Your pain will not change her how she feels about the MR. Don't overkill by standing around with a goofy grin on your face, regardless of what's going on. If she's going out to meet another man, I wouldn't give her a big smile and tell her to have a great time...…..b/c she is disrespecting the MR. But neither should you go the opposite extreme and beg her not to go out, or let her see you crying, or following her around the house like a little puppy. You don't have to convince her you are okay with her, b/c you aren't. At the same time, you aren't going to give her the power to rob you of who you are inside, or to take away all your joy in life. Don't voice any of this to her, just do the actions. (Some LBH's want to repeat things they read on the board, and they shouldn't tell the W unless we specifically say so).
You would definitely not smile and happily engage with her when she is showing verbal disrespect in front of the children. Know what I mean? If she calls and gives you a tongue lashing, cursing and/or screaming...... don't be the nice guy and try to calm her down, or find out what's wrong, or rescue her, or fix her problem. You address the fact that you won't stay on the line while she verbally assaults you. If she continues, you hang up. You have to be firm and stern when the WW is disrespecting you. I would say you always draw the line when she does something to show disrespect toward you. That's what we mean by standing up to her.
Boundaries are like having an invisible line drawn around yourself. It's up to you to stop actions that invade that boundary and inflict you with pain. As someone has said, "We teach people how to treat us". The WW has lost respect for her H, but he can get it back if he'll start addressing these issues with consequences. I'm not saying it's his place to administer punishment. I'm saying if a person treats you disrespectfully, are they faced with any consequences...….or do you keep trying to get them to like you? I'm not suggesting vindictiveness. What do you do when someone crosses the line with you? This is really hard for some guys. They don't have a clue as what to do...….other than have a discussion about it. Unfortunately, by the time she's involved in some type of an A, talking is usually unsuccessful when dealing with a WW. She has to experience some type of loss/consequences for disrespecting her H. I think so many cases fail, b/c the betrayed H continues to live with his cheater W, trying to prove his worthiness to her...…..which is not the message to give her. Yes, he needs to do 180's in his life..…...but do those that improved him as a man. Do it from the standpoint of strength, self respect, leadership, etc. Don't focus on trying to show her what a great MR you can have while she's desiring some OM. Look, she knows she's cheating and she'll only see her H compromising his own integrity and dignity to be with her. LBH's come on the board and want to immediately start doing all these loving things he should have been doing for years. He may refer to it as his 180's or whatever, but as long as she is in an A, it will appear that he's trying to "win" her back. That's not what she needs to see, b/c she will already try to twist & turn things around on him...….telling him things like how she doesn't know if she can trust him again. What?!
So, I suggest you draw the lines by knowing where your personal boundaries lie. Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, it's about protecting your feelings. For example, with the phone call where she is verbally assaulting you...…..the action is up to you. You are the one who has to do it. She then has a choice. She can honor your boundary by speaking in a civilized manner, or not call you. The only way you will speak with her over the phone is for her to do it respectfully. Make sense?
Word of warning about setting boundaries. You don't need to go around the house crowing about boundaries. B/c as soon as you told her something was a boundary........she will test you! So, be careful, b/c you'll have to back it up with an action if she dishonors it. And, stating a boundary doesn't make it effective. The consequences make it effective. In many cases, you don't have to say anything at all...…...you just have to act.
You'll need to depend upon yourself for happiness, rather than depending upon her to bring it. During this current situation with the WW, you need to think of yourself as an individual who is not dependent upon her ever-changing feelings/moods to be the deciding factor for what you decide to do. Refer to your standards, religious belief system, personal integrity, morals, values, etc. That's what should guide you in your decision making. Nice guys have been conditioned to respond according to his W's mood swings. They believe "happy wife is happy life" and it really messes with their head, b/c everything turns into making her appeasing her. So, it's a challenge for him to break away from that type of emotional conditioning.
One suggestion that might help, is to always be a step ahead by having a backup plan whenever she tries to throw a monkey wrench into things. Know what I mean? Stop just going with whatever she wants at the moment, and start making some decisions...….even little ones. Instead of checking with her first, as you habitually do.........makes plans yourself. Always have a plan for getting out of the house, so that you aren't "stuck" there. Always have a plan for the evening, instead of waiting to see what she does or what kind of mood she's in. I'm not saying to be the party planner for her. This isn't about her. You don't want to be hanging around with nothing to do. And, don't devote your weekends to home projects...…..b/c that does not score one single brownie point right now. It does come across to her as you trying to do something to appease her. Stay away from her as much as possible. Being physically and emotionally unavailable to her, is what you need to do at the moment.
Just for the record, the things you do in this current situation, are not necessarily the same as you'll do when going through piecing.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Don't discuss your feelings with her......period. Don't try to verbally express to her that you are okay or not okay. Your actions/behavior and attitude does all the necessary expressing. Frankly, the WW really doesn't care if you are okay or not. As for as she's concerned, everything is about her. She isn't interested in hearing about you.
Just a simple "I'm good. I have nothing really to talk about." has been pretty standard. Mostly because I have been good. I still crash and cry. The last time I showed W my emotions was a little over two weeks ago when I found those emails. Short of W and OM fornicating in front of me, I do not anticipate any more "surprises" from those two. At least I hope not.
Originally Posted by sandi2
The men in your NG support group may be able to help you in defining where to draw lines. As with most men who has NGS, I think it is initially difficult for you to know how to balance some of these areas/issues. It's difficult for some of them to understand how to implement some of the 37 rules, without more explanation. For instance, showing that you have a positive mental attitude, having a pleasant facial expression, being civil, etc...….sounds confusing for some men with NGS when we come along and tell him something that may sound a bit differently. It's not a different message, but it's his mindset toward his situation that's causing most of the confusion For example this rule means he should have this type of attitude and pleasant facial expression toward his family, people, and life in general. He doesn't need to go around with his lower lip dragging the floor or show her how devastated he feels, b/c this type of action makes him appear "weak" in the eyes of a WW. That's not to say he doesn't take serious things seriously.
When I let go back in late July (the day before I registered here), I made a conscious decision not to show my emotions to her. Other than that one incident, I have been even keel. It took me almost 7 months to notice that "sad Pain" is not going to win her back. Nearly 4 months in...I'm doing a lot better. I do not show my sadness to W's friends, family, or acquaintances. To my mom, my therapist, and to you all here...yeah...I expose myself. I know that I'm safe.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Here's the thing...….you are not "happy" with her actions & choices. If you have a WW who has OM, you don't have to pretend that you are jumping for joy over what she's done........but neither should you go the extreme opposite and think she's going to respond toward your sadness and pain in some compassionate way. Your pain will not change her how she feels about the MR. Don't overkill by standing around with a goofy grin on your face, regardless of what's going on. If she's going out to meet another man, I wouldn't give her a big smile and tell her to have a great time...…..b/c she is disrespecting the MR. But neither should you go the opposite extreme and beg her not to go out, or let her see you crying, or following her around the house like a little puppy. You don't have to convince her you are okay with her, b/c you aren't. At the same time, you aren't going to give her the power to rob you of who you are inside, or to take away all your joy in life. Don't voice any of this to her, just do the actions. (Some LBH's want to repeat things they read on the board, and they shouldn't tell the W unless we specifically say so).
I keep a stoic expression. Not too happy, not too mad, not to sad. She has told me sometimes what she is up to even when I do not ask (I do not ask what she is doing and have not done so in almost 6 months). My actions are speaking louder than my words now. But I have a considerably long way to go.
Originally Posted by sandi2
You would definitely not smile and happily engage with her when she is showing verbal disrespect in front of the children. Know what I mean? If she calls and gives you a tongue lashing, cursing and/or screaming...... don't be the nice guy and try to calm her down, or find out what's wrong, or rescue her, or fix her problem. You address the fact that you won't stay on the line while she verbally assaults you. If she continues, you hang up. You have to be firm and stern when the WW is disrespecting you. I would say you always draw the line when she does something to show disrespect toward you. That's what we mean by standing up to her.
When she has a moment like that, I do calmly tell her to not talk to me like that again. Not in a threatening way, but one in which I express myself that I will not put up with her behavior.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Boundaries are like having an invisible line drawn around yourself. It's up to you to stop actions that invade that boundary and inflict you with pain. As someone has said, "We teach people how to treat us". The WW has lost respect for her H, but he can get it back if he'll start addressing these issues with consequences. I'm not saying it's his place to administer punishment. I'm saying if a person treats you disrespectfully, are they faced with any consequences...….or do you keep trying to get them to like you? I'm not suggesting vindictiveness. What do you do when someone crosses the line with you? This is really hard for some guys. They don't have a clue as what to do...….other than have a discussion about it. Unfortunately, by the time she's involved in some type of an A, talking is usually unsuccessful when dealing with a WW. She has to experience some type of loss/consequences for disrespecting her H. I think so many cases fail, b/c the betrayed H continues to live with his cheater W, trying to prove his worthiness to her...…..which is not the message to give her. Yes, he needs to do 180's in his life..…...but do those that improved him as a man. Do it from the standpoint of strength, self respect, leadership, etc. Don't focus on trying to show her what a great MR you can have while she's desiring some OM. Look, she knows she's cheating and she'll only see her H compromising his own integrity and dignity to be with her. LBH's come on the board and want to immediately start doing all these loving things he should have been doing for years. He may refer to it as his 180's or whatever, but as long as she is in an A, it will appear that he's trying to "win" her back. That's not what she needs to see, b/c she will already try to twist & turn things around on him...….telling him things like how she doesn't know if she can trust him again. What?!
I have fantasies in which I tell that I do not trust her. I want to tell her about how all trust in her is gone. Maybe she is arguing with me about why we are in the sitch we're in or why I am not opening up to her like "we used to". I want to break her down so that she can see what a hypocrite she is.
But I also know that by saying that in that manner is very vindictive and at the very least will invite unnecessary conflict. I will tell W someday, as-a-matter-of-factly, if we start piecing process. But it's all one big question mark. I just do not want to derail anything by throwing her A in her face when I am angry.
Originally Posted by sandi2
So, I suggest you draw the lines by knowing where your personal boundaries lie. Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, it's about protecting your feelings. For example, with the phone call where she is verbally assaulting you...…..the action is up to you. You are the one who has to do it. She then has a choice. She can honor your boundary by speaking in a civilized manner, or not call you. The only way you will speak with her over the phone is for her to do it respectfully. Make sense?
Absolutely.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Word of warning about setting boundaries. You don't need to go around the house crowing about boundaries. B/c as soon as you told her something was a boundary........she will test you! So, be careful, b/c you'll have to back it up with an action if she dishonors it. And, stating a boundary doesn't make it effective. The consequences make it effective. In many cases, you don't have to say anything at all...…...you just have to act.
I have told her about boundaries early on when I was busting my NGS (before you 2x4 me, this was before I was told by you folks here not to tell W about what I'm doing to improve myself. Back then, I still was focusing on making changes so that she will notice. Different story now), so she knows that there are lines that I am drawing around me.
Originally Posted by sandi2
You'll need to depend upon yourself for happiness, rather than depending upon her to bring it. During this current situation with the WW, you need to think of yourself as an individual who is not dependent upon her ever-changing feelings/moods to be the deciding factor for what you decide to do. Refer to your standards, religious belief system, personal integrity, morals, values, etc. That's what should guide you in your decision making. Nice guys have been conditioned to respond according to his W's mood swings. They believe "happy wife is happy life" and it really messes with their head, b/c everything turns into making her appeasing her. So, it's a challenge for him to break away from that type of emotional conditioning.
I have been living this, Sandi. Since I started DBing, whenever she has a moment I do not let her moods affect me. She apologizes for her behavior later and tells me that she was not mad or disappointed or whatever at me. I tell her that I know and it did not affect me afterwards. She does however, feel like she is "vibing" off my moods and tells me as much, whatever that means.
Originally Posted by sandi2
One suggestion that might help, is to always be a step ahead by having a backup plan whenever she tries to throw a monkey wrench into things. Know what I mean? Stop just going with whatever she wants at the moment, and start making some decisions...….even little ones. Instead of checking with her first, as you habitually do.........makes plans yourself. Always have a plan for getting out of the house, so that you aren't "stuck" there. Always have a plan for the evening, instead of waiting to see what she does or what kind of mood she's in. I'm not saying to be the party planner for her. This isn't about her. You don't want to be hanging around with nothing to do. And, don't devote your weekends to home projects...…..b/c that does not score one single brownie point right now. It does come across to her as you trying to do something to appease her. Stay away from her as much as possible. Being physically and emotionally unavailable to her, is what you need to do at the moment.
Always. I am trying to find more social GAL activities. It's a little difficult in which I lift after work then find something fun to do in a small town. Just another challenge to overcome, I guess.
She is starting to express frustration at my distancing. Before the email episode I shared little fun things. I stopped that altogether. I clean because I have to. I do my own laundry. I cook food for me. She wants in, she can. She doesn't, not my problem.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Just for the record, the things you do in this current situation, are not necessarily the same as you'll do when going through piecing.
First time I am going to say this, and this is something I have learned as I continue through this journey, is that I'm not looking that far ahead anymore. Nothing is guaranteed. I tell myself, I tell my W, I tell my friends, and I am telling you all:
I am taking things one day, one hour, one minute at a time.
Brief update. I am struggling to GAL. Last night I drove out to the city and went to the gym and worked out. After that I went to a coffee shot, got coffee, and walked to a freeway overpass and just looked at the cars going back and forth. About 20 minutes. Drove back home late, prayers and went to sleep.
W called me once during the night to see if I made it in. She then went into my bedroom turned on my light and quickly turned if off after she saw I made it home.
She called me and made small talk and tasks that needed to be done.
I'm fine with things being as-is. At least I am not down right now.
She apologizes for her behavior later and tells me that she was not mad or disappointed or whatever at me. I tell her that I know and it did not affect me afterwards. She does however, feel like she is "vibing" off my moods and tells me as much, whatever that means.
She may be frustrated that she can't get the reaction she wants from you. A lot of women use their tantrums or tears as a manipulation tool to invoke certain responses from the man.
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Always. I am trying to find more social GAL activities. It's a little difficult in which I lift after work then find something fun to do in a small town. Just another challenge to overcome, I guess.
I understand that small towns don't offer much "fun stuff", if any. It's good if you can find fun things, but just getting out of the house helps keep you distant from her drama. Is there a library that stays open later? You could do your reading, or maybe even your DB posting while there. What about some type of volunteer service to help others? Are there any late hour variety stores open? You can always go and just look around.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Nothing groundbreaking to report. W is still trying to chat about news, events, holidays, etc. I reciprocate and I am not as cold as I was earlier in the week, though the temptation is there, especially when I think about her treatment of me. She dropped off D4 at my work last night so she can go to her meeting. Once again told me about the weight I'm losing. The weight loss observations are very interesting. She is now bringing it up about every two to three weeks. I do not understand why and to be honest, I do not care. I let go of the "small signs" BS weeks ago.
Saw doctor yesterday. Gained weight but I'm confident it's muscle. I lost 1/2" of fat, so I'm very happy about that. Continuing to make dietary changes. I need to eat more veggies.
Sandi, Steve, thanks for the GAL support. I am doing things on my own that are considered, by definition, GAL. I think the part where I do not feel it is not as genuine as I want it to be is where I am just out with my thoughts by myself. I do go to bookstores, coffee shops, stores, as well as go on the occasional photo shoots, but the common there is that I am doing these things alone. I am struggling mightily to find folks my age to do stuff with. I do have friends, but they have stronger bonds with W then me. And I am putting up a wall between them. I do not trust them. I do not want their sympathy or pity. As far as I am concerned, they can and will tell W about what I am doing, my feelings, etc. My scheduling is nearly full with my job, weight training, D4, and house responsibilities that going to meet-ups are a challenge. No excuses (per Steve).
My feelings...I think this is what true detachment feels like. Ironically, it started to happen right after my discovery of the extent of W and OM's relationship and the horrible fallout after ("D4 needs to see what a caring R looks like.", "You're just jealous.", "It's ok to be single."). In a way, this was what I needed.
Picture taking for a friend of mine, some busy work at the house, some teaching Sunday, and getting ready for the next workweek.
