Journey Continues #2

[ballast]

So when I said “engage with me” I did do those things for her, more specifically to “help” her. So yeah I guess that was NG mentality, although to me NG would have been my being more blatantly subservient. Also it was definitely not done in hopes of sex as a reward, but I was hoping for a return. My hope was that taking stresses away from her life would allow her to be less frazzled and maybe allow her to relax more and talk with me about regular things of life and not exclusively her stresses. In that way I saw it as a positive to our MR. She always had stresses, I never did. While I would put down the devices, mute the TV, make direct eye contact and listen to her, the constant stresses day in/day out over time it wore on me. I would never have not listened to her, commented as best I could on what she said, but it was non stop. When we first started dating it was fun conversation, light, jovial, by the end it was just the stresses. I was just trying to lift some of that burden off of her in the best way I knew how.

Making dinner and taking care of D I for sure saw as our work and not her work. She was commuting home from work when I was doing those things so I did see it as balancing the load and being a team. That it might help her stress for sure I hoped for that.

I think women want to feel the W & H are a team, accomplishing what needs to be done to keep the home functioning to the standards they both approve. If both spouses can share in that work b/c they love their family and take pride in their home.....then they are on a healthy track.

Those points in bold are crucial. I thought we were a team, she did not and the reason I believe that to be is that we had different expectations on the standards we approved of. I was far more “relaxed” in my standards than she. She did everything immediately, me, I’d get to it. It was a fundamental difference in our personalities for sure and I believe there was resentment on both of our parts that the other would not come more around to our point of view. I accept I could have been more proactive, but in truth the two of us did not communicate our expectations and negotiate standards that we agreed to and we should have.

It wasn’t until a good bit of time had passed that I realized how stressful doing our finances was on her. You are right that she likely would have appreciated me carrying some of the weight BUT her pride would have made it hard for her to let me I think.

Don't lay on the couch watching tv while she's at the desk sweating over how to cover all the expenses. See what I mean? Look at the bills with her. Look at how to stretch the money with her. Discuss it with her. Just talking about things, is a stress reliever for women. Teamwork is the name of the game. Otherwise, the W sees her H just laying back and sticking her with all the responsibility while he takes it easy, and that's why she resents it.

So anytime W wanted to talk, I did as I described above, gave her my undivided attention BUT I was most times laid back in the recliner with the TV on. I was VERY conscious of making sure she knew I was listening to her BUT how she SAW me, for sure I could still see her resenting me. Again, I can see how I could have done much better here.

A lot may contribute to each personality, but I also believe the more the man is quiet and passive, doesn't stand up to her when he dislikes something she's done, leaves most decisions and/or responsibilities up to her, and he doesn't command respect......the more bossy his W will become. One reason is b/c she feels she has to step into the man's role. And when she does, she's going to take his b@lls. I see a lot of my H and myself when you talk about you and your W. I was seen as the stronger, more outgoing personality. He was quiet, reserved, and a nice guy. He learned to stand up to me, and I learned to show the man respect. So, I know couples with opposite personalities can have a good MR, if they work at it. My grandmother once told me that you never reach the point of not working on the MR.....if you want to have a good one. Boy, was she right about that!

In the personal experience I have of my parents, while my Mom pretty much ran the show, I never thought nor saw her be bossy to my Dad, BUT having read a great deal on here and elsewhere I can understand the how and why that could/does happen. It’s painful to think that I will likely not have the ability to apply much of what I’m learning to my current W/MR, but I will at least be able to hopefully apply it and improve myself for a future relationship. W was definitely the more vocal, emotional personality which can give the perception of strength, BUT my quiet, calm, logical personality could convey the same AND as we were opposites, W would say I was her “balance”. Initially at least she felt this way, but as the MR went along she began to see it as a negative AND something that we could never change for the better. And simply put we did NOT work on our MR. I always expected it would be constant work, W in her own way perhaps thought she did try, but in the end she left. I may never know if it was because she thought she tried and failed, she didn’t want to do the work OR she didn’t think she had to, it was just easier to move on.

I believe either spouse who is being disrespected should calmly approach the other one to bring it to light and to tell them it won't be tolerated. If they can calmly discuss their feelings, etc., that's great, just as long as it's understood disrespect will not be tolerated. Catching early signs of disrespect is much like catching a disease early......the success rates are higher. The problem I find in the stories on the board, is that one spouse allows the other one to continue showing some level of disrespect, in some form.

I think this is my biggest challenge and perhaps for other men. I’m not confident that I could detect the subtleness/codes/tests of disrespect that a woman could throw at me. I don’t speak indirectly/in code/etc so perhaps I’m not hearing when she’s being that way towards me. And at least as best as I know we started off in our relationship without any of this stuff and then as the relationship progresses it begins for whatever reason. I just don’t think I “catch it” and by the time I do it’s too late. You have said before how us men have trouble understanding women, I think for me this is my least understood issue that I need to deal with. She could have been throwing disrespect haymakers at me for months and I may not pick it up OR the relationship “as best I know it” was/is still going along positively enough that I’m stupidly willing to accept her “nagging”…she must just be having a bad day right?

Men will also suffer b/c they are trying to appease the entitled-thinking daughters of these silly/angry women…Does any of this make sense, or am I talking in circles?

What’s ironic about this to me in my MR is that while my W clearly believes herself entitled, in absolutely no way was her mother a silly angry woman. W did not get this from my MIL. MIL does not understand W’s decision at all. What is telling though is the anger with which W has said “I don’t want to be like my mom, this is not the 1940’s”. And yes what you say makes complete sense. In so many of your posts to us guys I feel like your simply trying to say “For God’s sake dude be a man!!!” and flabbergasted when instead guys go off being Mr. Mom around the house. LOL I can sense your thinking “what the H happened, have these guys forgot how to be men?” I think at it’s core your advice to us is just be the traditional, strong, confident man God meant for us to be. It’s funny that you think YOU are talking in circles because nowadays for us guys with modern women we’ve been inundated from all directions about how we need to do this, do that, no don’t do that, do all this, but please be sure you don’t do that unless…it’s really easy for US to feel like we are spinning in circles as a result AND the real madness in it for many of us is that we are only trying to do whatever we can do as men to make the woman that we love and cherished feel happy and loved.

This breaks my heart, and it makes me think of my own son.

Firstly, thank you for your kindness…for ALL of us on here that you’ve helped. It’s simply a helpless feeling as I’ve alluded to above when as a man I loved her with all my heart, the best I knew how but I was woefully unaware of and unprepared for much of what we’ve discussed. I am thankful to feel as though through this loss I have better prepared myself to grow and be a better future spouse, BUT dear God help me why can’t I get the chance to apply what I’ve learned and save the MR with the woman I’ve loved throughout. Things happen in life for which we have no control over and we lose people we love. I’ve suffered greatly for many months, BUT I have endured and learned through it. In a way with my parents aging and many family I love doing the same, part of me feels as though this was God’s way of teaching me an important lesson. I can only pray that his plan someday heals my heart and with time and the benefit of hindsight I’ll see this as a necessary chapter in my life. I have a very good understanding of what you explain regarding the draw of the bad boy/alpha male. I believe I can adapt some of the positive characteristics to myself while at the same time avoiding the negative aspects.

This is where I want to pull my hair out.

I guess it stems from two MR betrayals, the circular thinking/confusion about what ladies want and what am I not doing or doing wrong. Even though everyone tells me there is nothing I could have done in my present sitch, rectifying that reality with myself is a struggle. It’s probably heavily rooted in my inability to understand WHY she left? By blaming myself as the cause it serves as a “write in” form of closure so to speak although it totally is counterproductive to my healing and moving on to a better future relationship. Again something I need to work on and hopefully with time those thoughts will go away.

Thank you Sandi…I definitely understand what you’re saying.

-B

[sandi2]

I thought we were a team, she did not and the reason I believe that to be is that we had different expectations on the standards we approved of. I was far more “relaxed” in my standards than she. She did everything immediately, me, I’d get to it.

Same with my H and me. Like, if we were going to work in the yard on Saturday, I could have all the leaves raked while he was still drinking his coffee and looking out the window. He had to "soak" when he got up in the mornings, and maybe psyche himself up or plan it out.....IDK. I just jumped in and got on with it. (LOL) I had to learn to let him be him and to stop trying to make him be like me. Smart couples, in my opinion, will communicate with each other and figure out which part of the teamwork each one will do. Sounds simple enough, but a lot of couples fail to talk about the very things we're saying here.

I’m not confident that I could detect the subtleness/codes/tests of disrespect that a woman could throw at me. I don’t speak indirectly/in code/etc so perhaps I’m not hearing when she’s being that way towards me. And at least as best as I know we started off in our relationship without any of this stuff and then as the relationship progresses it begins for whatever reason. I just don’t think I “catch it” and by the time I do it’s too late.

Taken from my Sandi's Reflections thread:

"Some signs may be her showing a lack of
impatience.......taking long sighs, tapping her foot and/or putting
her hands on her hips & looking disgusted, rolling her eyes, speaking
with a disgusted or impatient tone of voice, talking to him as if he
was one of the kids, speaking to him indirectly through the kids,
making fun of him in a disrespectful manner, making verbal jabs at him
in front of others, a total lack of consideration, rudeness, saying
rude things to the children about him in his presence....or behind his
back, any kind of slurs, on & on.....the list is almost endless.
These are things he can, and should, call her out. In other words,
instead of ignoring it, like he has made a habit of doing......he
needs to confront her immediately about her show of disrespect."

IMHO, these are initial signs that she's losing respect for her H. If it's not addressed, her overt disrespect may get worse.

She could have been throwing disrespect haymakers at me for months and I may not pick it up OR the relationship “as best I know it” was/is still going along positively enough that I’m stupidly willing to accept her “nagging”…she must just be having a bad day right?

But here's the thing...….I'll bet she didn't behave that way toward the people in her work place. I'll bet she didn't show that side of herself before you M her. She felt she could act out (in whatever fashion) and not suffer any consequences from you. If she's having a bad day every day when she gets home.....and she's taking it out on you, then it needs to be addressed. We teach others how to treat us, even those who love us. You taught her that she could verbally beat you, and get away with it. You told yourself she must not feel good, was extra stressed, was that time of the month......or whatever. You just tried to roll with the punches.

I remember the very first time I spat angry words at my H.....in front of his family. Everyone just froze, and looked at him. He said nothing and I stormed off. He never said a thing to me about how out of line I was, and/or to never speak that way to him in front of others. I was pregnant at the time, so I'm sure he told himself any number of excuses for why I had my angry outburst in front of his family.

What’s ironic about this to me in my MR is that while my W clearly believes herself entitled, in absolutely no way was her mother a silly angry woman. W did not get this from my MIL.

I should have explained it like society was the mother. and the new generation of women were society's daughters. Society marched & demonstrated and spread poison in magazine articles, and started having tv programs to show its public the new modern woman......and the new "role" of her H. It would make me sick to my stomach to see how the man in a family would be portrayed on television. That's what our kids grew up watching, and subconsciously being taught that that was the role model for men. This was especially true in sitcoms. At first, I didn't catch it, but my H did. When he pointed out that the H was made to look like some kind nitwit in the majority of sitcoms at that time. The W would be a beautiful, intelligent, successful, career woman......while the H was portrayed as some type of weak, "yes, dear", physically unattractive (in some cases), immature (in many), male. who seemed to be more of a burden to the wife as she weathered through. You may think, "Yeah, but it was suppose to be funny". It wasn't funny. A studio laugh track was used, to clue the viewing audience that the joke was on the numskull H. Anyway, that was just another source of propaganda that influenced families......as they stupidly sat in front of tv night after night.

I think at it’s core your advice to us is just be the traditional, strong, confident man God meant for us to be.

Thank you. Yes, that's it. And, as I've said in the past, I feel sorry for men b/c they really don't know who to listen to anymore. I really think there should be more men's support groups that teach and encourage traditional characteristics that once were honored. There are wonder books written by Christian authors that talk about the differences between the sexes, and their roles in the M and family. There's also a lot of junk out there, that just adds to the current confusion. People need discernment, when reading material on these subjects.

Firstly, thank you for your kindness…for ALL of us on here that you’ve helped. It’s simply a helpless feeling as I’ve alluded to above when as a man I loved her with all my heart, the best I knew how but I was woefully unaware of and unprepared for much of what we’ve discussed. I am thankful to feel as though through this loss I have better prepared myself to grow and be a better future spouse, BUT dear God help me why can’t I get the chance to apply what I’ve learned and save the MR with the woman I’ve loved throughout. Things happen in life for which we have no control over and we lose people we love. I’ve suffered greatly for many months, BUT I have endured and learned through it. In a way with my parents aging and many family I love doing the same, part of me feels as though this was God’s way of teaching me an important lesson. I can only pray that his plan someday heals my heart and with time and the benefit of hindsight I’ll see this as a necessary chapter in my life. I have a very good understanding of what you explain regarding the draw of the bad boy/alpha male. I believe I can adapt some of the positive characteristics to myself while at the same time avoiding the negative aspects.

Wow, thank you for such kind words...…..and, for everything else you said in that paragraph. When I read this, it sounded much better than the one where you talked as though you had no chance to have a successful relationship. Trials and tribulations are what make us stronger. (Easy to say, hard to live.) Life is not fair, and many things are very difficult to understand. Were these two marriages God's plan for you? IDK, but they were your choices, made from a free will. And now that you find yourself in this situation.......you still have a choice as to how you will handle what has been dealt to you. That applies to all of us. We have a choice as to how we will handle it. Will we allow it to make us bitter or better? Will we be sour for the rest of our life, give up and decide we'll never be happy, or will we ask God to heal us and help us to learn/grow from the experience in order to become the best man/woman with the best life possible? God wants the best for us, but we are the ones who mess up. Sometimes we don't know what it is we need to learn, but God knows. Thankfully, He doesn't give up on us. I could talk about this stuff all day and all night. I'll sum it up by saying it really made me feel good, and hopeful, about you, when I read this part of your post. ((hugs))

[ballast]

I just jumped in and got on with it. (LOL) I had to learn to let him be him and to stop trying to make him be like me.

See that was a huge reason my W left I believe. I don’t believe she was able to accept that I was not nearly as proactive as her and because I wasn’t it led to huge resentment within her until she couldn’t take anymore. I know that if you want to have a successful MR you have to let each person be their true self while finding a way to become a successful team. My IC has emphasized W’s lack of willingness to negotiate, sacrifice and be vulnerable which made our MR impossible. I’m continuing to get better within myself regarding those as I’m learning more about how essential they are.

I appreciate your ‘initial signs’ of disrespect post. Funny thing is W is a very impatient person when stressed and so if/when she was impatient, it would be hard to separate that from her mostly usual demeanor. I think the main thing for me going forward is that instead of being the typical man saying “hey we’re married now, I can relax, we’re good to go for life” I’ve learned from my time on here that I need to continue to stay actively involved in the nurturing of the relationship AND be mindful that when/if W brings disrespect towards me that I set appropriate boundaries as a foundation with her.

I’ll bet she didn't behave that way toward the people in her work place. I'll bet she didn't show that side of herself before you M her.

So given her personality I am SURE she behaved that way to people at her work if they crossed her, BUT she definitely did not show that in any way to be actually prior to our D arriving. She definitely did not suffer any consequences from me when she should have. Hindsight can be a wonderful teacher huh? :-). It was definitely difficult to separate her seemingly daily stresses from the true stresses I put on her. And yes I did try to roll with the punches, just thinking that instead of confronting the stress and possibly making it worse, leaving it be to “bleed out” so to speak would be better. I did not teach her how to treat me.

Yes in the context of “society’s daughters” for sure she is fully bought into entitlement. My needs, my happiness, what I want…when she left those were her exact words. Selfish. I know that unless/until those feelings inside of her were to change back to what is best for us/our family our MR had no chance.

Thank you. Yes, that's it.

I think the key for men is to cut the crap of trying to pleasing others, become self aware of themselves and live their life. Just as there is a HUGE amount of propaganda for modern ladies about how they should be, so too is there a HUGE amount for us guys and we’d all be better off freeing our minds of that and relying on ourselves and our faith.

Wow, thank you for such kind words...…..and, for everything else you said in that paragraph. When I read this, it sounded much better than the one where you talked as though you had no chance to have a successful relationship…I'll sum it up by saying it really made me feel good, and hopeful, about you, when I read this part of your post.

Well the previous post from me came from the emotional, residual pain side of what I’ve been living through whereas what I just provided is my logical, balanced, confident side coming through :-). Reality is I NEVER thought I’d be divorced once, much less twice. To find my expectations for my life so completely upside down…just takes a person some time to rectify and come to acceptance of the difference between the expected and the actual. For now, I anchor my life, future and happiness in the marvel of life that is my little D. With time and God’s continued grace and mercy I’ll add on to my life from there.

-B

[Davide]

Well the previous post from me came from the emotional, residual pain side of what I’ve been living through whereas what I just provided is my logical, balanced, confident side coming through :-). Reality is I NEVER thought I’d be divorced once, much less twice. To find my expectations for my life so completely upside down…just takes a person some time to rectify and come to acceptance of the difference between the expected and the actual. For now, I anchor my life, future and happiness in the marvel of life that is my little D. With time and God’s continued grace and mercy I’ll add on to my life from there.

I think often times the hardest part is letting go of the expectations of what our lives are supposed to be. To think for a number of years that we are walking down one path only to realize that it is a dead-end and that we have to scramble to find another is tough. We look around but often times we can't see any other path, because of course it is always in the darkest moments of our lives that we are force to look. I know that my mind still rebels at times - as much as I miss my old W, I miss the comfort and security of knowing what path I was taking.

B, you are lucky that you have D to anchor you, and that sounds like a great plan. Give yourself time and keep an open mind and a new path will show itself to you.

Hang in there.

[ballast]

So I saw her for the first time in 7 months yesterday exchanging D. Even with that passage of time W still said not a single word to me nor did she look at me at all. Truly amazes me, I mean she's been off living the life she wants for months and yet it seems she is still as angry and resentful towards me as she was when she left. It must be terribly exhausting staying that angry, that long. Anyway I was fine, I'm fit, cleaned up nicely, was happy, guess honestly for W's sake I hoped it might go differently, but nope...that's who she is. Leaving ACC's quote below to coda this encounter and keep on living my life:

Who is the easier spouse to leave (all other things being equal), a terrible abusive monster, or a genuinely good person? If you left an abusive monster how would you feel? Free? Vindicated? Empowered?

If you left a genuinely good person, and with the passage of time it became apparent to you that your issues have more to do with how you feel about yourself than anyone else, how would you feel? Shame? guilt? embarrassment? failure?

If someone evokes the feelings of guilt, shame and embarrassment within you, are you likely to want to interact with them more or less?

Her avoidance of you has everything to do with how she feels about herself and very little to do with you. She's not looking at you, she's looking in the mirror and doesn't like what she sees.

You will change that narrative when you're having a kick-ass life and she feels left behind. When you get there, I'll be you that she won't be hesitant to interact with you at all.

-b

[Accuray]

You're perceiving that she's angry and resentful but I would bet what she's feeling is embarrassed and ashamed and doesn't know what to do with that. Because she doesn't see you that often she hasn't had time to work through it. How have you not seen her in 7 months if you have to exchange your daughter back and forth?

Acc

[ballast]

Acc, I'm just guessing...embarrassed/ashamed about what? As I've said ton of WW's on here with OMs and they yet still do all sorts of activities/talks with their LBS. If she were as you say you'd think she'd at least try to communicate with me in an attempt to free herself of some of whatever it is she's feeling. Compared to other sitches on here, W just doesn't make any sense.

Exchange of D has been through daycare, morning one drops off, afternoon the other picks up. Proxy has been used.

[Accuray]

Ballast everyone is different. If she's avoidant then her behavior would be expected. Embarrassed / ashamed about everything -- how she's made you feel, breaking up your daughter's family, putting herself in a situation to have a daughter and then getting divorced, etc. etc. She may represent to you that all of this is fine with her, but I guarantee you it isn't.

If you were in her situation *you* might try to communicate in an attempt to free yourself from whatever you're feeling, but she may not react to her feelings in the same way. Her impulse may be to smash them down and avoid them.

Its impossible to mind read the motivation behind her behavior, anything we might guess about it is speculation. Its really not worth comparing her behavior to that of other waywards, because you'd have to compare her to someone else with the same personality, generalized anxiety disorder, etc. etc. and those direct comparisons don't exist.

Acc

[ballast]

Acc

Yeah I hear you. Just me trying to grasp at something and you are right I am only guessing or speculating.

Nothing changes for me but to keep moving myself forward. Maybe one day she will come around and talk again with me. May be a very long time.

-B

[SteveLW]

Even WWs do not like to inflict pain. At least most of them. My WW kept apologizing to me even as she continued her wayward behavior. I am with Acc, likely she saw you and the fact that she ripped your still beating heart from your chest through all of this smacked her in the face. You know, the "out of site out of mind" dynamic. I think of people like OrangeK whose W used an opportunity to make sure she didn't have to deal with him (TRO). I think he has posted that when he has seen her in court, she won't even make eye contact with him.

I think of my WW. If she had gone to the step of an actual PA, I think her shame would have caused her to want to avoid me at all costs, as well as a lot of people that are currently part of our life. Even her own family I think she would have shied away from until they got "used" to the idea. I think a lot of this is based on personality type.