Journey Continues #2

[neffer]

I know B, I know you are GAL. And I know your switch too.

Sometimes we are looking for answers that may never come. We must learn lo live with those expectations. You are moving forward B. I get what you are telling us.

Keep GAL

[sandi2]

Women were sold a lie, back during the early days of the women's liberation movement, and I think that lie has continued. They were told they could "have it all". They were also told that there should be no differences in which gender did what job at home. They were told they were wasting their lives if they were SAHM's......and that they should get out into the world and do more with their lives. So, women started burning their bras and going to work in hard hats and drilling holes in the streets.

Women can't have it all. Nobody can. That's why you have to make choices. Otherwise, something is going to be sacrificed somewhere. It's usually a relationship, and we see it happen everyday. Young families run around like chickens without their heads, always in a hurry....running from one activity to another (especially for their kids)…..while keeping up with a million friends on FB, and taking care of their aging parents. And while women may have gotten better opportunities and better salaries, they can only spread themselves so thin before something starts breaking down. They are so overloaded and frazzled at the end of the day.......they just want to go to bed and crash. They have too much on their plate. Understand, I am speaking in general terms of the "modern woman".

The youngest two generations have grown up with a lot of results, or fallout, of the women's lib movement (good and bad). Listen, women have always been complexed, and they are more so today. Just like anyone who is given a wider field of education, opportunity, and experience...…...they will grow. Women have always been strong in their own way, but they do have their limits. After all, there's only 24 hours in a day. Women are just as smart as men, and God gave her a little something - something that He didn't give the man. However, women and men are not the same. Women are not inferior or better.....they are just different from the man. God made Eve from Adam's rib, to walk by his side...….not ahead or behind him. Woman was made from man, but God kept it interesting by making some unique differences.

Women's lib started out being all about equality. Somewhere along the way, the message became distorted. I'm good with equality, but don't try to turn me into a man, b/c I'm not the same...….and I sure don't want to see men become women. I may do as good a job, maybe better than a man, and if I do the work.....I deserve the pay. But equal opportunity and pay is not the problem I'm seeing down through the years. A lot of women thought they could wear as many hats as they wanted......b/c that was the big lie they were told. Divorces quickly increased and relationships got shorter...….and day cares spouted up to keep the children. And it seems since women's lib, we have had very confused men about their role in marriage/home and some very entitled women in marriages...……..so someone messed up somewhere! Men have never really understood women, but now they don't even know who plays which role. Men feel that a lot is expected from him.....but he doesn't know what it is. I just don't want to see men give up being who they were designed to be!

I've said this before and I'll say it again...…..I feel sorry for young men today who are dating and/or looking at marriage. There are many young women walking around who feel very entitled to "have it all", but they don't understand that a high price is paid. This is off the subject a bit, but I am seeing a generation coming up that doesn't want to work! They just feel entitled to have it. That's pretty scary.

Anyway guys, the reason she doesn't tell you exactly what she needs you to do to fill her emotional needs...…..is a little hard to explain. One, is b/c she thinks you should know. I mean, you were filling those needs when you were dating her...….or she would not have M you. Her mistake was believing you would continue doing those things after marriage. But guys don't necessarily think that way. They see the dating--engagement process kind of like most other things they pursue. They have an end goal and they go after it, and once they get it.......that's it. Generally speaking. You men know how you are. Your role changes and you know you are responsible for a family, and your goal is to provide the best that you can. That's your goal. If the W is unhappy, you expect her to speak up. And she's thinking, "But I didn't have to tell him before we were married".

I think the biggest reason is that she doesn't know how to tell him. She gives clues. It is usually seen by her H as complaining or nagging. "You never take me out", "You never buy me anything", "Why can't we just talk like we did before M", "You don't spend quality time with me", "You aren't romantic", etc., etc. Men often just hear criticism, which is understandable. Some women don't know how to tell the H she needs emotional intimacy. BTW, she should not be finding emotional intimacy from anyone but her H. But the truth is, a lot of guys are clueless about what that even means. He wants a map with instructions. And a lot of women feel that if she has to tell him how to get from point A to point B...…..it just kind of loses the pazazz. So, yeah...….it's a problem. People continue to say that better communication is needed in MR's, but I don't know if these two differences will ever be understood. As long as society tries to tell us we are the same.....we are going to expect one another to think alike, which doesn't work.

I am not blaming one gender over the other. We are who we are. However, there are wonderful resources out there that can teach us about one another and what the other sex needs in a MR. Don't sell yourself short just b/c you had one bad relationship. It doesn't mean you are defective, or that you will never fill the needs of another woman. We all want to feel cherished by our spouses. Women want to feel special by their man. Men want to feel admired by their woman. Maybe we are more alike than I thought.

Well, I've rambled enough and may have wasted everyone's time. Just felt like sharing some thoughts about one of the world's oldest subjects.

((hugs))

[Accuray]

if i was an utterly terrible abusive monster of a husband i could understand her absolute disinterest, but quite frankly i was far from anything like that. i know i was a good husband, but with flaws like any of us.

Who is the easier spouse to leave (all other things being equal), a terrible abusive monster, or a genuinely good person? If you left an abusive monster how would you feel? Free? Vindicated? Empowered?

If you left a genuinely good person, and with the passage of time it became apparent to you that your issues have more to do with how you feel about yourself than anyone else, how would you feel? Shame? guilt? embarrassment? failure?

If someone evokes the feelings of guilt, shame and embarrassment within you, are you likely to want to interact with them more or less?

Her avoidance of you has everything to do with how she feels about herself and very little to do with you. She's not looking at you, she's looking in the mirror and doesn't like what she sees.

You will change that narrative when you're having a kick-ass life and she feels left behind. When you get there, I'll be you that she won't be hesitant to interact with you at all.

i think people of my generation are more accepting of a first D "mulligan", but two...

Afraid of wearing the "Scarlet D" eh ballast?

Here are a few questions for you:

-- When you introduce yourself do you say "Hi, I'm Ballast, I'm divorced."

-- When someone tells you they are divorced, is your immediate response "How many times?"

-- If you know someone really well, do you judge them by their past, or by their character?

When I was first divorced, I was very interested in "telling my divorce story" and hearing about other people's divorce stories. It had been front and center in my life for so long that my ability to survive that ordeal defined a part of who I was at that point in my life.

Therefore, when I was dating early on, discussion of divorce and "what did you learn from it" was a common topic of conversation.

As time passed, "divorced" came to define who I was less and less, and as that happened I really didn't care if people I was meeting and dating were divorced, never married, or twice divorced. Who cares? Its all about who that person is *now* and what kind of chemistry do you have together?

If I met woman one who said "I've been divorced twice, but I've learned a lot about myself through that experience. I understand why I made the choices I used to make, and I understand what's important to me now and who I've become" that would be much more interesting than someone who was divorced once and said "it was all his fault" and seemingly learned nothing about themselves.

Its all about personal growth and your ability to be a good partner. The rest is really just statistics, and statistics are only important to someone who doesn't know your character.

In short, don't worry about it, you don't have to wear a scarlet D.

Acc

[ballast]

Sandi…first I want to say thank you for what you wrote. It was far from rambling and I think for MANY men who have found themselves here this post is as equally important as all of your WW threads. Perhaps from some of what you’ve shared more men might be able to become better husbands before they get married. What AMAZED me was your first sentence. You see while I’m going through what I am with my W, one of my sister’s is walking away from her MR. So my mother who’s in her 70s…EVERY SINGLE TIME we talk she says “it was that d**ned women’s lib!” She says it reliably and with such consistency that I know it’s coming before she says it…what my mother could never detail really was what you just did. Best she can say is that she can't understand my generation of women and what they are after relationship wise.

When you described something being sacrificed, yep that was our MR and you described W’s day exactly. AND against the reality of W wanting to go to bed and crash AND Dad feeling the same way, guess what happens…they drift apart. There is no time for each to pursue what they want separately nor time for them to nuture the MR. Heck my W was so frazzled day to day, if I failed her in giving intimacy she did too and rightly so, I mean how could I expect her to have the time/energy to do it?

My W in her prior relationship was a submissive female by intent, she told me as much. But then the ex left her, she felt betrayed/taken advantage of/you name it, so she decided “that’s never happening again” so with me she intentionally went after the dominant masculine role. When she did that, what did that leave me?

Anyway guys, the reason she doesn't tell you exactly what she needs you to do to fill her emotional needs...…..is a little hard to explain. One, is b/c she thinks you should know. I mean, you were filling those needs when you were dating her...….or she would not have M you. Her mistake was believing you would continue doing those things after marriage. But guys don't necessarily think that way. They see the dating--engagement process kind of like most other things they pursue. They have an end goal and they go after it, and once they get it.......that's it. Generally speaking. You men know how you are. Your role changes and you know you are responsible for a family, and your goal is to provide the best that you can. That's your goal. If the W is unhappy, you expect her to speak up. And she's thinking, "But I didn't have to tell him before we were married”.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^ Best I can say is I am no mind reader, unless you tell me what is wrong AND (IMPORTANT!) in a way that I UNDERSTAND IT, I’ve got no chance. I appreciate that you say it’s a mistake on the lady’s part to believe we would continue doing that after marriage BUT it is also the mistake of men who believe the game is won so to speak once we’re married. The other thing I alluded to before both my father and W’s father have been married 50+ years, they ‘re generation is the model by which many of us men here learned how to be husbands. My Dad provided, stayed loyal to my Mom and to the extent he knew tried to make my Mom happy. He was my model and by years married, successful, BUT I know if he was put into my generation with the skills he had, he’d been torn to pieces. The challenge is for me the blueprint of being a great husband, I honestly don’t know what that is anymore and quite frankly, I don’t truly believe that any modern women could define it beyond as you say me being everything possible.

Some women don't know how to tell the H she needs emotional intimacy. BTW, she should not be finding emotional intimacy from anyone but her H. But the truth is, a lot of guys are clueless about what that even means. He wants a map with instructions. And a lot of women feel that if she has to tell him how to get from point A to point B...…..it just kind of loses the pazazz.

I’m guilt as charged on that beyond saying that I’m completely willing and wanting to provide it to the woman I love, but again when I have asked lady friends define what that means, it’s either not answered or each is completely different. And yep, for sure I heard “if you can’t figure it out, it’s not my job to tell you” <insert_facepalm>

REALLY valued your words Sandi! My IC is a lady. These days she’s really just trying to keep my wanting to be in the relationship game going forward. Where I am time wise it’s completely normal for someone like me to say “I’m done with women”. A purely emotional response. Thing is based on EXACTLY what you just said my thinking has moved me deeper to feeling that same way as a more analytic/logical response to what the “playing field” looks like these days. It’s not at all said in bitterness, but just more of a recognition that given the needs of a modern woman, I may never be able to meet those demands and as I have 2 strikes against me already, I’m not really interested in risking a third strike. Two have been bad enough.

-B

[ballast]

Acc…thanks man as always!

My first wife cheated, admitted it, we lived together in the same house, we went to MC 2 times, mediated our D, bottom line beyond her having OM’s baby that’s about the only more painful thing she could have done to me YET we interacted/talked/were civil the whole time (as impossible as that might seem to some).

Her avoidance of you has everything to do with how she feels about herself and very little to do with you. She's not looking at you, she's looking in the mirror and doesn't like what she sees.

My IC, many friends and family have said the EXACT same thing to me. The contrast between my 1st MR sitch and my W’s total avoidance of me when it could not be any worse…I hope what I wrote illustrates the contrast that has me at a loss. IC goes beyond and claims that W has severe anxiety disorder and the primary coping method for such a person is avoidance of the anxiety at all costs.

You will change that narrative when you're having a kick-ass life and she feels left behind. When you get there, I'll be you that she won't be hesitant to interact with you at all.

.

Thanks buddy! You told me “straight line in the opposite direction”, well I’m going that way for only me and my D these days. Everybody gives me this talk that she’ll come around one day…ain’t holding my breath.

Afraid of wearing the "Scarlet D" eh ballast?

C’mon man! LOL. It’s not like that. “I” know first wife, cheated and took off, second wife…no idea what happened, BUT I know I tried to be the best husband I could be, had more to learn, made mistakes but in general wasn’t horrible. BUT we both know men and women are different. A guy can meet a hot woman and at least initially she could have been married 25 times with 100 kids, if she hot as H, he’s interested and none of his buddies at least initially are gonna caution him otherwise. Now imagine a lady saying “hey I met this great guy, BUT he’s been divorced twice”. Guaranteed to her and her GFs it’s “what’s wrong with him?” “Girl, be careful”, “RUN!” THAT is what I feel I’m up against.

The answers to your questions are obvious and I get it, NO, NO, and by their character of course.

I’m definitely not going to let my divorces define me NOR feel like I have to blabber about it all the time. I think there is a certain stigma attached to repeat divorces and that does concern me regarding how I will be perceived initially.

If I met woman one who said "I've been divorced twice, but I've learned a lot about myself through that experience. I understand why I made the choices I used to make, and I understand what's important to me now and who I've become" that would be much more interesting than someone who was divorced once and said "it was all his fault" and seemingly learned nothing about themselves.

Its all about personal growth and your ability to be a good partner. The rest is really just statistics, and statistics are only important to someone who doesn't know your character.

Totally, 100% agree! I pray that somehow through all the crazy I’ve gone through God still has a plan for me to find such a woman no matter single/divorced, kids/no kids. Time will tell I guess.

Always appreciate you Acc!

-B

[Accuray]

“hey I met this great guy, BUT he’s been divorced twice”. Guaranteed to her and her GFs it’s “what’s wrong with him?” “Girl, be careful”, “RUN!” THAT is what I feel I’m up against.

This might happen, and it might not. Her friends might also say "he tucks in his shirt? he's not cool, run away!"

Point is, if she has good chemistry with you she's not going to care what her friends say beyond being annoyed by it. Its not going to be the big deal you're worried about.

I am worried, obviously, about who you're picking. If your IC is right and your wife has "severe anxiety disorder" that has all kinds of not so great behaviors associated with it. Why were you attracted to that, and why were you okay with being in a relationship with a person with severe anxiety disorder?

What you should be worried about is not figuring that out, and going headlong into the same situation again. That has everything to do with ballast, and nothing to do with "women" in the abstract.

If your first wife cheated on you, what got your relationship to that point? For that to happen, either she was very resentful and angry at you, or she didn't value you, or she was opportunistic and made a mistake she regretted. In the last category, you typically get apologies and contrition but it doesn't sound like that was the case. If not, *why* did you end up in a relationship with someone who didn't value you and why was that okay?

I really hope you're digging deep into this in IC, that's really the key to your future is understanding that. You can't make whatever "that" is go away, but you can learn new and better tools for coping with it and managing it. I had a woman friend who was repeatedly cheated on. As a result, whenever she got into a new relationship she was paranoid and distrustful. Because she was paranoid and distrustful, her partner would resent being mistrusted, and wouldn't value her because her behaviors reflected low self-esteem. So if you have someone who is resented and not valued, that's just a breeding ground for cheating, which is why she kept getting herself into that situation.

She needed to re-write her story to see herself as the prize to be won, and conduct herself in the relationship on the basis of "I rock, so you'd be an idiot to cheat on me, but if you do, your loss". That's taking the power back.

I read a great book that put forth the theory that a relationship can't survive long term unless each person in it *truly believes* that the other person is willing to walk away if things don't work for them. That is the great equalizer. If you think you can only push your partner so far and then they're out the door, you've got motivation to change yourself and/or seek compromise when things get bad.

If you think that when push comes to shove, your partner is going to fold and give in to whatever crap you're bringing to the table, deep down you're not really going to respect them. If you don't respect them, you can't really value them, and at that point you can't really value the relationship, so you may be "hanging in" and going through the motions of being married, but you're not really in.

Each person needs to be willing to say "hey, what's going on now isn't working for me. If it doesn't change, I'm done." They need to mean it, and the other person needs to believe it.

If you've got that, you've got a relationship that can evolve with the people in it, and can stand the test of time.

Acc

[ballast]

Acc...

Point is, if she has good chemistry with you she's not going to care what her friends say beyond being annoyed by it. Its not going to be the big deal you're worried about.

Point taken. I do wonder though if twice divorced will come up as a red flag before the chemistry is established. As you do say though if she likes me enough no matter what her friends think it won't be a big deal.

I am worried, obviously, about who you're picking. If your IC is right and your wife has "severe anxiety disorder" that has all kinds of not so great behaviors associated with it. Why were you attracted to that, and why were you okay with being in a relationship with a person with severe anxiety disorder?

Yes, my IC believes there may be something wrong with "my picker" as she puts it so we are discussing it. I think I've said before I knew depression can negatively impact relationships, but i didn't understand how anxiety could until now. Before I showed up here I had ZERO idea on much of what we talk about. W was attractive, fun, we had similiar interests. Not like I considered/thought she had anxiety that could manifest itself negatively in our relationship. Also until our D arrived our MR was great. IC has told me no way I could have foreseen how W would change post-D. That comment concerns me most. We seemed ok and then a few years on, W changes and we're done. Another huge reason why I'm gun shy to try again.

If your first wife cheated on you, what got your relationship to that point?

I'd say we were far less compatible. It as SSM throughout. It was a true "mulligan". I don't recall her resentful/angry. I would say she didn't value me, had an opportunity and took it. As Sandi described above I took on the provider, come home and relax role that I saw my father take. I wasn't emotionally there for her, but W was completely uninterested in sex or children. Bottom line a bad match. I don't negate my role in it's failure, but I never went outside the MR. Perhaps it was a blessing that she did.

If you think that when push comes to shove, your partner is going to fold and give in to whatever crap you're bringing to the table, deep down you're not really going to respect them. If you don't respect them, you can't really value them, and at that point you can't really value the relationship, so you may be "hanging in" and going through the motions of being married, but you're not really in.

Each person needs to be willing to say "hey, what's going on now isn't working for me. If it doesn't change, I'm done." They need to mean it, and the other person needs to believe it.

So when i married my W, I truly believed in the for better or worse...whatever may come I am vowed to you for life. I did not accept a caveat nor place an asterik beside it saying "but if this stops working for me, i reserve the right to leave". BUT I think these days MANY men and women do place such an asterik beside their vows. Rightly or wrongly as the traditional man and from watching my father, I bought into the "happy wife, happy life". So if we got into a fight over blinds or color in the kitchen or whatever, if it's important to her then whatever she wants is fine with me. I don't see me as "caving", but rather making her happy. Now if that causes her to lose respect for me. Flip it though, say I stick to my guns and get my color. She will resent me for life over that. How does a man be a great husband when he's d**ned if he does, d88ned if he don't? The other part for me, W had great taste. Simply wasn't much for me to dispute with her and truly she didn't bring that much crap to the table. At least nothing that I thought was so bad I had to counter on. No one should live unhappily forever, but to me if you marry as a Christian, you must accept your vow as sacred, expect "worse" to come about from time to time and be will to forgive each other to preclude resentments and anger from destroying your MR. When you say "If it doesn't change" again being dedicated to communicating your needs to your spouse in a way that THEY understand is critical. Best as I can tell my W simply expected me to figure it out/know.

If we moved marriage to the point where both sides are self concious that at any time if "it isn't working" for their partner they will walk, then we're all walking on a tighrope praying we do everything correctly, missteps will not be forgiven. Perhaps for the modern generation that's true and we've got divorces all over the place to show for it. For my parent's generation, ain't neither one of them ever worried/thought that about the other. They were married, took vows, where were they going anyway if they did want to leave? Come what may they stayed. Were they "happy" throughout, absolutey not, but did they expect that they were entitled to feel happy all the time? No. Again to borrow from Sandi I think many men/women from our generation are too drawn to the entitled manifestations of ME FIRST.

Up front I want to blame myself for both of my failures. I'm self aware AND completely believe had I been a better husband, W wouldn't have left. Thing is she did, my IC tells me it's on her for walking and at least 80% of why this occured is on her. None of that makes me happy nor absolves me for the blame I feel inside myself. Truth is though, the more I learn/read while MUCH of it makes sense, the more clueless/helpless I feel I become. I feel I have to be every way and no way in relationships, walking on eggshells that at some point, it may not work for them anymore and on my head I'll be again. I'm working hard with my IC to address my shortcomings. Feeling like I'm the problem has me scared s88tless to try again. While I'll willingly accept it, I just don't understand/know how I am and heck, then again maybe I'm actually not.

[sandi2]

I do wonder though if twice divorced will come up as a red flag before the chemistry is established.

As you pointed out in a previous post, divorce is a lot more acceptable in society these days. Plus, if a man or woman expects to find someone who has not been divorced, at least once, they had better get someone very young.

So if we got into a fight over blinds or color in the kitchen or whatever, if it's important to her then whatever she wants is fine with me. I don't see me as "caving", but rather making her happy. Now if that causes her to lose respect for me.

This is where I get a little frustrated with you guys. What you say above may sound logical. However, you miss the point about making her happy. First of all, she won't lose respect for you b/c you made her happy, okay? Giving her everything she wants doesn't make her happy, or define you as a good H. She loses respect b/c you become passive and won't stand up to her when she is out of line, showing disrespectful behavior toward you as her H. If she says something or does something disrespectful, do you tell yourself you will be the bigger person and ignore it? If she throws a fit of anger over something you did that she doesn't like, do you tell yourself to keep the peace and not say anything back to her, and you quietly crawl into your shell? This is the type of man a woman doesn't find attractive and she won't respect. She sees you not having the b@lls to take up for yourself. So, she does more things that are more disrespectful. Why? B/c women want men who are stronger than she is, so she'll test him.

Some men become so centered on making the W happy that they develop a subservient behavior pattern, and that kills attraction. I've seen a lot on the board, especially when a newly LBH is trying to win back his WW. He falls into the Super Husband mode, where he's doing every bit of the housework, cooking laundry, etc. He makes up excuses, like telling the board he's doing it for himself, or he's trying to take some stress off his W, or whatever. No, he's trying to score brownie points,...…...and he doesn't understand why she doesn't feel sexual desire for him. In all fairness to the guys, some WW's use the housework stuff as her excuse for why she's wanting out of the M, but that is bogus. She doesn't have the hots for OM b/c her H wasn't doing enough housework.

A man with NGS is going to find it's easier to leave all the decisions up to his W. He becomes very passive in everyday stuff. "Whatever you decide, dear, is fine with me". He becomes a "yes dear" kind of guy b/c he thinks it makes her happy. But it doesn't. Yes, she probably wants to pick out the colors to paint the rooms, but she wants you to pick out which car is the best quality. She wants you to get the lawn mower, and have the roof put on the house. Sometimes, she wants to hear you say where the family will eat out instead of leaving every decision up to her. We women actually think it is attractive for men to lead and make some decisions! If we have to tell him everything to do, then we start talking to him as if he is one of the kids...….and/or we'll boss him around. I blame the H if he allows his W to boss him around. It's not about whether or not it makes her happy, but about dignity and respect. Does this make sense, b/c if you don't truly understand, you will continue making the same mistakes with women in relationships.

IDK about your parents marriage, but their generation probably has more of a sense of what was traditionally called women's work and man's work...….which helped your dad to know where he was suppose to speak up and where he could let her make some decisions. IDK, if you saw your mother speak to him disrespectfully, boss him around in front of others, make fun of him, put him down in front of his kids/other people, throw tantrums, etc. If she did any of these things......it's safe to say she wasn't feeling the respect for him. That's not to say she would get a divorce, b/c many couples stay together for various reasons.

I don't think you truly know a person, until you get married. Plus, and this is a big one......neither of you are going to stay exactly the same two people down through the years. People change. So, you have to grow together, or you'll grow apart......and that's hard to do at times. I think that's when a MR is really tested.

Truth is though, the more I learn/read while MUCH of it makes sense, the more clueless/helpless I feel I become. I feel I have to be every way and no way in relationships, walking on eggshells that at some point, it may not work for them anymore and on my head I'll be again. I'm working hard with my IC to address my shortcomings. Feeling like I'm the problem has me scared s88tless to try again. While I'll willingly accept it, I just don't understand/know how I am and heck, then again maybe I'm actually not.

This concerns me, b/c I see "nice guy" written all over it. I think your mindset may need to change before you try another relationship. ((hugs)) Not b/c you are a bad person or b/c of your shortcomings or b/c you've been a bad H….but to give yourself time to figure out how to change/overcome some of these NG viewpoints.

I hope you will continue posting. I don't believe you are a hopeless case, and I think there is someone out there who would love to share their life with you. You just need some help with how you see your role as a man, and as a husband in a MR.

[ballast]

I think sadly divorce being “acceptable” these days has allowed people to make it the easy out. Add to that stressed out people who believe they are entitled to only a world of happiness such that they are either too tired or seek out social media to provide them a new OW/OM to justify them…I truly may be as sad about the state of marriage/relationships as I am about my W walking (running) away. With a young D I really worry for her.

It’s interesting that you use the word logical. It is how handle/approach life. I’m an analytical person. My W, however, is completely emotional. We are opposites in that regard. Where she can blow up very quickly, I hardly ever do. I can see in myself passive traits/actions and ways in which I can be more decisive/lead. It’s ironic to me really as in my professional life I am exactly decisive and lead. I have 50 people each day who look for me to provide that to them, but yet when I came home, eh whatever you want W I’m good with. I don’t crawl back into my shell, BUT I have lived my life on being patient, the bigger person and keeping the peace. I process/negotiate through problems analytically/logically…emotion simply has nothing to do with it. If anything and again ironically I believe my W is seeking more of the type of man from my father’s generation whereas I’m part of the less manly tech oriented generation of men. My father while he might have allowed my mom to run the house, if for some reason she ticked him off, she’d know it. Maybe I feel like because I fight my battles at work all day, when I come home I just want peace and so don’t acknowledge her slights. Heck as you said earlier maybe I’m just too frazzled myself at the end of the day to care to fight about something.

I know I wasn’t centered on W’s happiness in a subservient way. Given that my W walked out straight away when she BD’d me I never had an urge or need to go super husband. I will say though that again highlighting your “frazzled” comment I would come home in the evening and cook dinner for us both, get our D settled. That wasn’t done out of NGS, but rather I thought part of our problem with connection was her constant list of stresses so I thought if I could remove the top 3 off her list MAYBE that would allow her to feel less frazzled and more likely to engage with me. What I found instead was if I took the top 3 stresses off her list, she just moved the next 3 up.

Again I can see some tangible improvements I can make regarding being passive. Finances I let her handle entirely and I did so because she was so good at it for our family, BUT it stressed her to no end AND she became resentful that I didn’t have to deal with it. It as like “we have $100 extra, I can put it on A, B or C” and I would say “whatever you think is best”…that wasn’t me trying to be the passive NGS guy, bottom line I simply TRUSTED HER so I didn’t engage in the debate. Anyway finances I should have handled or at the least been more decisive. And she tried to tell me what to do and many times what she’d say and what or when I’d do it didn’t match up. She did try to boss me around again I really believe she tried to claim the masculine role as a result of her prior relationship. In my mind it was simply “You don’t tell me what to do, BUT I”m not going to get into an argument with you and tell you that”. I was/am confrontation averse when not absolutely necessary. I loathe listening to politics on either side of the isle, at family reunions where exchanges get heated, I’m tuned out. For whatever reason my personality finds no interest in that. I get from MUCH of what you’ve beat into our man brains on here LOL that appropriate confrontation when our W’s get out of line is fundamental so that she maintains her respect for us, we maintain our masculine role AND that I show to her that I am stronger than her. For my father that was built into his personality, for me while I get what you are saying it will require me to be somebody I’m not. It’s ironic to me the more I think about it. Here my generation of men are trying to be the Super Husband, domesticated/touch feely type we think the modern women want and yet, we men I think would be much better off continuing to be like our fathers. For many of us that’s a challenge.

IDK, if you saw your mother speak to him disrespectfully, boss him around in front of others, make fun of him, put him down in front of his kids/other people, throw tantrums, etc.

I NEVER saw my mother do ANY of those things towards my father. Now were they an exception to the norm OR would those actions simply unacceptable for women of her generation? I’m firmly going to say unacceptable. One thing I have NEVER heard from my mother was ANY sense of entitlement.

neither of you are going to stay exactly the same two people down through the years. People change. So, you have to grow together, or you'll grow apart......and that's hard to do at times.

When my W left she said we had both changed after the birth of our D and grown apart. Now personally I didn’t think I had changed, I still loved her, couldn’t be happier to be a father, etc…I said at the time “if we have changed and that has caused us issues, we can work together to resolve our differences and make our marriage stronger”. She completely disagreed that people could change. We were who we were and no change from the current at BD was possible. As is my way, internally I found that obscenely narrow minded and ridiculous.

This concerns me, b/c I see "nice guy" written all over it.

My mother simply says “Ballast you are too nice of a guy for these crazy women”. For sure I am a “nice guy”, but I’m not that way as some fake act to win women’s hearts or make them happy. The thought of being a “bad boy”…if that is what a lady wants I feel I’m better off alone. The idea of having to confront every time my W test me. I confront all day at work, I want peace, love and support when I come home not emotional tests, especially because for sure I’m not going to catch them all and almost guarantee I won’t “handle” them to W’s satisfaction.

I’ll leave you with this. I had a friend tell me that a friend of his had left his wife recently. Both were young, married but a few years. They have an infant son. I said “why did he leave?” He said “she wanted him to get a flu shot”. My mouth dropped. He went on to say “he’s told his W he should have majority custody, so she replied well I’ll say you abused me”. INFANT SON in that dysfunction. When I say hopeless it is less about my shortcomings, although I do know and see many within me, but rather to me the absolutely disgusting/tragic/immature nature men and women handle themselves in relationships these days. I lost one MR to infidelity, 2nd one I’ll lose soon, I’m guessing to infidelity, from where I’m standing the game just don’t look like fun playing anymore. It’s terribly sad for me to lose this MR especially as I feel like I failed as a man and a husband when I wanted nothing more to have a happy life with W forever. If there is OM who is the man's man she's wanting, it will be a kick in the head, but I'll survive. I'll wonder less about why him and way more about why not me. Psyche wise and dating landscape wise might just be best I stay on the sidelines less I disappoint another lady. Gonna keep working on me, believing that through this devastation that God has a future purpose in it for me that I'm just not supposed to see yet. Thank you Sandi!

-B

[sandi2]

That wasn’t done out of NGS, but rather I thought part of our problem with connection was her constant list of stresses so I thought if I could remove the top 3 off her list MAYBE that would allow her to feel less frazzled and more likely to engage with me.

I disagree. I think it is done out of NG mentally. My H used to do housework for me, hoping I wouldn't be so tired that I'd have sex with him. Basically, that probably sounds very logical to a man. Thing is.....I knew he was doing it to get rewarded with sex...….and I resented it. Why couldn't he do it b/c it needed to be done? Why was it seen as "my" work, instead of "our" work? I wasn't getting rewarded for doing housework, but it still had to be done. If he didn't get rewarded, he wouldn't do the work. See what I mean? You started out sounding as if you cared about the stress level your W was under, but at the end of your sentence......you revealed how you really wanted some type of return or reward from her. You wanted to be rewarded by her engaging with you. Women are usually pretty keen on reading the H, and if there is already SSM issues, or other resentments......she's going to resent him more for trying to be rewarded for doing something that's considered housework where both of them live and are responsible for the work.

My question is, if you were doing the cooking and taking care of the child, what was your W doing during this time? Was she doing other housework, or was she relaxing? See, some guys mess up by not maintaining balance. If you were doing all of that every evening, then she should have been doing other chores. This should have been seen as "teamwork". You saw it as relieving some of the stress off her......like you were doing her a favor, which may go back to you seeing your father doing nothing once he got home from work. However, if you are doing everything and she's just resting and not taking part in the housework...….that's going to fail in most cases. She'll develop a sense of entitlement, and she'll start expecting you to do more & more....while she does less.

When both spouses have a fulltime employment, and if they have children...….there is plenty of work every evening to be shared. I think women want to feel the W & H are a team, accomplishing what needs to be done to keep the home functioning to the standards they both approve. If both spouses can share in that work b/c they love their family and take pride in their home.....then they are on a healthy track. However, if one spouse is doing it all, while the other spouse does nothing, there will eventually be feelings of resentment. Those resentments are usually pushed down in their hearts and never resolved without the help of professional counseling......and the results show in other areas of the MR.

Again I can see some tangible improvements I can make regarding being passive. Finances I let her handle entirely and I did so because she was so good at it for our family, BUT it stressed her to no end AND she became resentful that I didn’t have to deal with it. It as like “we have $100 extra, I can put it on A, B or C” and I would say “whatever you think is best”…that wasn’t me trying to be the passive NGS guy, bottom line I simply TRUSTED HER so I didn’t engage in the debate.

It is extremely stressful for women to feel totally responsible for their family's finances. It's good that you felt you could trust her, but she may have wanted you to participate as she was writing out checks, or do something that indicated you were carrying some of the weight with her. She felt the burden was solely on her. It goes back to the teamwork. If she does a great job, then you don't have to shut her out, just become a team player. Don't lay on the couch watching tv while she's at the desk sweating over how to cover all the expenses. See what I mean? Look at the bills with her. Look at how to stretch the money with her. Discuss it with her. Just talking about things, is a stress reliever for women. Teamwork is the name of the game. Otherwise, the W sees her H just laying back and sticking her with all the responsibility while he takes it easy, and that's why she resents it. Again, don't leave it all up to one spouse. (Speaking of spouses before they find the MR in a wayward situation, affairs, rebellion, etc.)

She did try to boss me around again I really believe she tried to claim the masculine role as a result of her prior relationship. In my mind it was simply “You don’t tell me what to do, BUT I”m not going to get into an argument with you and tell you that”.

A lot may contribute to each personality, but I also believe the more the man is quiet and passive, doesn't stand up to her when he dislikes something she's done, leaves most decisions and/or responsibilities up to her, and he doesn't command respect......the more bossy his W will become. One reason is b/c she feels she has to step into the man's role. And when she does, she's going to take his b@lls. I see a lot of my H and myself when you talk about you and your W. I was seen as the stronger, more outgoing personality. He was quiet, reserved, and a nice guy. He learned to stand up to me, and I learned to show the man respect. So, I know couples with opposite personalities can have a good MR, if they work at it. My grandmother once told me that you never reach the point of not working on the MR.....if you want to have a good one. Boy, was she right about that!

I get from MUCH of what you’ve beat into our man brains on here LOL that appropriate confrontation when our W’s get out of line is fundamental so that she maintains her respect for us, we maintain our masculine role AND that I show to her that I am stronger than her.

I believe either spouse who is being disrespected should calmly approach the other one to bring it to light and to tell them it won't be tolerated. If they can calmly discuss their feelings, etc., that's great, just as long as it's understood disrespect will not be tolerated. Catching early signs of disrespect is much like catching a disease early......the success rates are higher. The problem I find in the stories on the board, is that one spouse allows the other one to continue showing some level of disrespect, in some form. If the H has to confront his W the second time....I think the message should be presented much firmer. Not a "discussion". Not an argument. He refuses to put up with it. He sets boundaries, and she'll face consequences, if she continues to show disrespect. There's no need for a heated debate. She knows exactly what she's doing.

Here my generation of men are trying to be the Super Husband, domesticated/touch feely type we think the modern women want and yet, we men I think would be much better off continuing to be like our fathers. For many of us that’s a challenge.

Society has trouble balancing. We swung from one extreme to the opposite extreme. I don't think women wanted men to stop behaving like men. Grant it, some silly/angry women were deceived by a corrupt message (IMHO), and passed those attitudes on to their daughters, so much of society will suffer the consequences. Men will also suffer b/c they are trying to appease the entitled-thinking daughters of these silly/angry women. Men will and have paid the price with their manhood......and the young ones growing up don't even know what's all about. I don't know where the madness will end. I don't know what the answer is, except men need to take back their b@lls and teach younger ones how to be men. (I'm not suggesting they have to abuse some defenseless female, in order to be a man, either.) We need to be taught as a society how to be respectable men and women and the roles we have in relationships. The sexes have to learn how to respect each other.....without sacrificing who we are as opposites, in order to strive for some form of pseudo happiness. Does any of this make sense, or am I talking in circles?

It’s terribly sad for me to lose this MR especially as I feel like I failed as a man and a husband when I wanted nothing more to have a happy life with W forever.

This breaks my heart, and it makes me think of my own son. He's not the NG to the degree of his father, but he would never tell his W "no". He was the kind of guy the girls always wanted as a friend, but not a boyfriend. He doesn't "get it". He doesn't understand what is appealing in bad boys. It's not b/c they are bad people. It's b/c they take no sh't off the woman, and they aren't afraid of her. They are male dominate, take authority, are the alpha dog in the pack, etc. They don't carry her around as if she's a princess. They don't try to dance and around and hope she picks them. In other words, he isn't a "yes, dear" kind of guy. Those are some qualities that women like (even if the modern woman won't tell you). There are some things that are born in women that society will never change. I think that's one reason I think there a lot of them are confused. They've listen to propaganda, but then nature dictates certain things to their heart/emotions, and it confuses the mess out of them.

Psyche wise and dating landscape wise might just be best I stay on the sidelines less I disappoint another lady.

This is where I want to pull my hair out. That's a people pleaser! Why is this about you disappointing some lady? Why is this about you failing? From where I sit, it was both of your W's that betrayed the MR. Did you make mistakes? Sure, but that doesn't mean you are nothing but a failure.

Look, if you can't see yourself ever being any other way, that's okay. Learn to accept the way you are, and don't try to mold yourself into whatever pleases some woman. I'm saying to live your life by your own terms, and stop being a people pleaser. Make sense?