Finding the Balance and then Tipping the Scale

[Adam04]

One other thing, like earlier posts saying to not get other women involved when I GAL, I also read that we don’t want to use jealousy to get the wife back... don’t recall if that was from DR or another book, or article. W has been asking me more frequently now if there is someone else or if I have someone on the side. This temp checking right? I thought what DR said was that we let them know we want to work it out and that there isn’t anyone else but that’s it, don’t offer much more than that. I’m guessing this was for a WAW and not WW, who needs to be handled differently, yes? Do we even need to reassure them for their sake? I’m thinking what for.... it’s probably a temp check or their guilty conscience so why bother satisfying her either way? Am I missing something?

[MoveFrwd]

I had skimmed this before and was skimming to find the actions to match but had not so I interpreted that in my own way and made a declaration or this "Stand" to my wife before running it by the board as Sandi requested, my bad! I had jumped the gun when I made my stand to W on what type of person I am.

The problem with taking a "stand" is that you need to be very clear and very firm. A weak boundary is worse than no boundary at all. Let's say you tell your W "I will not live in an open marriage." You can't expect HER to be the one to change to bend to your rules. So, that means, you need to be clear on what will happen if she doesnt change. In other words, if you continue to find yourself in an open marriage, what will you do? Cut off your financial support? Move out? File for Divorce? etc. Your boundaries cant be hollow or they dont mean anything and only set you back. I see a lot of times, LBHs use this "stand" as a way of trying to drive change in their WWs. I know that was what I was doing when I tried to make a similar act. But I didnt have enough self-confidence and hadnt detached nearly far enough for that to do anything but hurt the overall situation.

I really meant to let you all know that I was telling her I wasn't scared to lose her, to let her know I was not wavering in my voice, I am serious.

So now what? If she doesnt change her behavior......what are you going to do to back up your words?

Yes I know I said too much but it also felt good to let her know I wasn't scared to lose her.

I wouldnt use your feelings as a guide for what is "progress". Have you read DR? Do you have goals? Is this act that "feels good" getting you closer to them? If not, then it doesnt matter how it feels...

I wondered if I was in the right place, on the right forum. I was expecting to look elsewhere for help with my kids and how to help them navigate this rough time, what to say to them and all that, but I had to take a step back

I mean, we arent really therapists. Or experts in child psychology or anything like that. I mean, at some point, you and W will need to sit them down and explain what is going on. But the details of the words and how to do it isnt really something the people here are capable of scripting for you. When that time comes, Im sure we can offer some suggestions based on our experience if you need it though.

Is it normal to feel like shutting down and not wanting it to work because of how this will affect the kids? I really don't know if I can forgive her for that. I feel like I want to ride this out like a free ride and at the end when we sell the house, I get what's mine and I'm good.

Im having trouble understanding. You want things to NOT work, because splitting up is BETTER for the kids? That seems unlikely to be true...?

As for the actions? Now that I've read more of the WW posts(not able to read all the replies yet but will at some point), I'm not going to fall for those things I was doing before. When my 6 year old says daddy hug mommy, or daddy do this, I am not going to entertain that but will deflect. She has, so will I. She temp checks, she can get burned like frostburn. When she wants to discuss things about us or anything that can lead to us, not going to take the bait. When she texts, not going to jump on it. Maybe not even respond like tonight when I was working out. When she's here, I leave to the room. Instead of her making my morning coffee, I'm going to tell her to make sure it has 2 spoons of sugar, always. No seriously, I'll be doing that. As for laundry, she still does mine.... I .. will.... tell... her … not... to...do...that... anymore /sadface. When it comes to buying meals or dinner, I might tell her no need. Of course I need guidance on a few of these things. These are just actions saying, I am not dependent on you, I don't need you to do this for me or I am not going to be sitting around like a little puppy waiting for you except if it's sex. J/K.

It's all very "wordy". Dont tell her not to do your laundry. Pick up your slack and just do it yourself. Good on the texts - you dont need to jump to reply ASAP. For dinners, I dont think who pays for dinner really matters - the money is all joint anyway at this point. But, maybe cut back on family dinners and family time to begin with. Get a schedule together of which nights you will watch the kids and which nights she will. When she has them, try to plan a GAL activity for yourself to get you out of the house - dress nicely, shower, etc. (Don't pretend you are going on a date, but just dress to feel and look good). Help the kids with their rooms, their HW, etc. Plan a fun outing to take them somewhere on a Saturday or something. These things you can offer to W to join, but dont rely on her to attend or be supportive - go with 0 expectations of her.

(In between typing this was also reading the WW series and the Reflections. I do have questions like in the past when she said, "I am wanting to go with my friend for the weekend to the company yearly golf event" if I said I don't agree with it and she insists, what can I do at that point besides trying to rationalize with her? What are other actions besides using our words can we take? Can't hold out on the sex... handcuffs and whip? but on a serious note, I always do appreciate the responses and advice.

She told me in advance that there's two company holiday parties she was invited to and has told me about. When she was working from home on my computer the other day, she had her Citrix up and I saw the company email... go ahead and let her do her own thing and not care or is this where we put our foot down?

I mean, why would you say she "cant go" to begin with to a work event? If it's because of OM, then you need to reconsider the stand you took and what this means. If it's just because she's getting out of the house, then make sure it's on the calendar, and block off some time for you to do something also.

Don't think of what you are doing as PUNISHING her. Or controlling her. Or limiting her.

All you can control is YOU and your reactions and your actions. and your boundaries.

She wants for both of us to drive our boys to an out of town Christmas light show next week. I said sure thinking about the holidays may be the exception for family time.. Thanksgiving is coming up and we will be doing a small family get together. Are there posts on the best way to handle these events? The Christmas light show, since I said yes, cant back out now right?

You go with 0 expectations. Be upbeat, carefree, pressure-free. Happy and excited for the kids. Show your best self. And like I said, no expectations. Its an event for your kids that she is tagging along to. It doesnt mean she wants to be with you. So no hand holding, longing glances, etc.

This is the confusing part, We stop the disrespect if she says something, I get we challenge but what about the other stuff like the going out, the events? How do we come down hard regarding those things with her time and how/where/who she wants to spend it with? Sandi, didn't earlier you say get a schedule and we use that for things like this? Don't question her, don't do nothing about where she goes etc right? Is this coming down hard, meaning we can care less what she does? By showing her we don't care, she'll care? But when it comes to words, we check the disrespect? Need more info on this, I think I asked above.... Need to know when we check her disrespect, what's appropriate and what is not, like what's over the top. Anyone got any scenarios to run on what's not too mild or crazy over the top?

Like I said, all you can control is you. So if she is going out to see OM, you dont say things like "have fun". You lock up the house and turn out the lights when youre ready to go to bed. You dont wait up or check on her when she gets back. And so on. Shes a grown up and you cant control what she does or who she does it with.

[Adam04]

Thanks Amoafwl, true on the empty boundaries part. I shouldn't try to test things and also you're right on my. Moment about shutting down and not wanting to work it out for the kids sake and the family. I was again speaking out of emotion and I have to let a lot of that go to detach, I woke up this morning thinking about what I said and I was telling myself today to be the rock. Thank you.

[Adam04]

I sound more confused than I thought I was. It feels like I am trying to show W and share with her x,y,z. I need to stop as much of that as possible. Whatever else I am doing or feeling that's not right for my sitch, I hope to put it all out early so I can get straightened out asap, knowing it's a looong road ahead.

[SteveLW]

Adam, listen to what Amoafwl is telling you. Essentially he is saying "act, don't talk". If you won't tolerate certain things SHOW her that, don't tell her. If you want her to stop doing things for you, show, her don't tell her.

Words are cheap. Why? Because she will say anything to manipulate you, get you to lay off, to hide what she is doing, etc. She will assume the same about your words. So just act, don't talk. If she asks you can reinforce your actions with your words.

For instance, if you start doing your own laundry, when she asks you can say something to reinforce your actions. "I've decided I need to become more self-sufficient to prepare for the future." (Or something that makes sense.)

I found in my sitch, as I got more independent, my W started WANTING to do more for me.It went against what her words were saying? "I want out of this marriage, I don't want to be your W anymore." But then she continued to behave like my W and even became a better W!

Remember, don't believe anything she says. Both negative and positive. Another thing my W told me on BD and shortly after was that she wasn't attracted to me and didn't want to have sex with me. And then suddenly she was initiating fairly regularly! You can't make this stuff up.

[sandi2]

When I got affirmation I was dealing with a WW I was a little sad for a moment and then I felt better knowing to follow my gut instinct.

IMHO, if a man had a choice between a WW, WAW, or MCLW...…..the WW would probably the easiest or quickest to change her mindset. Not that any are "quick/easy", mind you, but the MLCW usually has some past issue that affected her psychologically...….and who knows how long that will take to heal. I do believe we see some newcomers jump over to the MLC forum, b/c they can't accept that their W is wayward. I see the WAW being one who has legitimate reasons for leaving. In other words, her H was abusive in some way, or he wouldn't work to support his family, or he has been imprisoned, or he's a womanizer, in an affair, or something that prompts the W to leave the M and make a new life for her and the kids. But the WAW does not have a selfish, hidden agenda that the WW has. She does not have the same heart as the WW. The WAW is not going to walk away from her children in order to be independent and "find herself". The WW will show signs of a girl gone wild lifestyle or having a secret affair before she exits the M. Some are able to keep the OM a secret until they split from H, but the OM immediately comes on the scene. In WAW cases, I don't think she has her eyes set on another man, or even dating at the point of leaving the M. I see her as the one the H would have the hardest time "proving" he had changed, or her giving the MR another chance.

The reason I asked if there had been an agreement about not telling family members, is b/c she immediately wanted to cover up and play happy family when her mother & siblings arrived. There are no particular rules, other than not pulling the family members into the mix by discussing the problems, getting their help/advice, etc. That's not to say you have to lie for her, or help her hide her affair. If her mother wants to spend several nights, that's your W's problem, but she should not expect you to play along. Some women expect the H to let them back into the MBR, until the parent leaves and then she's go back to their previous separated arrangements. I've seen some WW's who want to get a D, stay in the same house, and not tell the parents. That's just nuts!

Can I ask, what are your thoughts on LBS contesting if there is a D? Like in this case if she wants more than fair , contest? I'm thinking the process will be simple but I don't know what to expect so feel free to chime in on this process.

I think you need to know where you stand legally, regarding child custody, finances, property, etc. It helps some men just to know what the law says. Sometimes other women start whispering in the ear of the WW, telling her she needs to get everything (even file false charges, if necessary)...….instead of settling for her fair share. If that's the route she takes, then I believe the H should fight for at least 50% custody of the kids, and whatever his lawyer advises. The M is over, so why wouldn't he protect himself and his children to the best of his ability? If she's being fair and cooperative, then great. If she tries to scr@w him over.....then he should get a shark lawyer, if that's what it takes to protect his rights as a father. That's just my opinion. Be prepared! Many WW's hit while the LBH is still in shock and wanting to save the M. The H mistakenly thinks if he gives her whatever she wants, it will somehow melt her cold heart and save the M. It doesn't.

I don't know where you live, but if in the USA, I don't think infidelity makes any difference. Depending on the case, it may play a part in how child custody goes, but you'd just have to check with your lawyer. Some lawyers will give you one free consultation visit. However, that may have more to do with fees and services, than answering some of these type of questions. My advice to husbands/fathers is not to go blindly into it, thinking she would not be greedy and take your retirement fund or get alimony and full custody of the kids. This is not the girl you M on your wedding day. She's going to get everything she can!

I'll continue in next post.

[Adam04]

Thank you Amoafwl, Steve,and Sandi for the support and advice this morning. I hear it. Actions not words.

My W told me last week that her family said this new me they see they like more engaging, more helpful.... I did tell her then to let them know it was because I was preparing ahead.

Is this bad the night we did talk few days ago, I was talking about continuing to work out, lost almost 60 pounds and she made a comment like maybe in the future if you're slimmed down we can maybe you know, I was like wtf, no. She asked why...so I told her I would be like where were you. Is that too cold or much to say to a confused person? Just don't say nothing at all?

[lost8]

MHO, if a man had a choice between a WW, WAW, or MCLW...…..the WW would probably the easiest or quickest to change her mindset. Not that any are "quick/easy", mind you, but the MLCW usually has some past issue that affected her psychologically...….and who knows how long that will take to heal.[quote=sandi2][quote]

Hey Sandi what are your thoughts on a WW with a MLC? That is where I think I am and it may be a lost cause.

[ovrrnbw]

One other thing, like earlier posts saying to not get other women involved when I GAL, I also read that we don’t want to use jealousy to get the wife back... don’t recall if that was from DR or another book, or article. W has been asking me more frequently now if there is someone else or if I have someone on the side. This temp checking right? I thought what DR said was that we let them know we want to work it out and that there isn’t anyone else but that’s it, don’t offer much more than that. I’m guessing this was for a WAW and not WW, who needs to be handled differently, yes? Do we even need to reassure them for their sake? I’m thinking what for.... it’s probably a temp check or their guilty conscience so why bother satisfying her either way? Am I missing something?

Her asking is a good thing b/c she is curious. Just tell her "I was out with friends". That's it. You are not trying to make her jealous, but at this point it is really none of her business plus you are telling the truth. If she thinks there's another person in your life, that's only her thoughts and not reality. It's a temp check.

Don't focus on "showing" her the "new you" and just be yourself - a person who is committed to being the best person while still being humble. I hope this makes sense. I mean to say, don't flaunt your changes, settle into your 180's and be natural.

[Adam04]

MHO, if a man had a choice between a WW, WAW, or MCLW...…..the WW would probably the easiest or quickest to change her mindset. Not that any are "quick/easy", mind you, but the MLCW usually has some past issue that affected her psychologically...….and who knows how long that will take to heal.[quote=sandi2][quote]

Hey Sandi what are your thoughts on a WW with a MLC? That is where I think I am and it may be a lost cause.

Hey Lost, I gave that some thought too but haven't really been in the MLC section for too long, aren't there 6 stages to that? I was wondering if a WW didn't get a chance to "sow her wild oats" when she was younger, has been in a relationship for a long, long time, and she feels like she is in her prime in her 40s and becomes WW, would that be a MLC?

Also ovrrnbw, I hear you. I don't want it to be Contrived.

W today is texting me on what she is doing later with the kids and when I'm not immediately responding she asked if we aren't talking now. Told her no, we are... just waited for break time to respond, said ok then left it at that. She responds okay I was checking to make sure you got my text. To that I didn't respond.

Amoafwl, I think you mentioned I haven't stated any hobbies of mine. For the last couple of months I've hit the gym Monday thru Thursday here at work after work for an hour to hour half or I go home to help with the kids then work out there. Want to realistically lose 60 more pounds but aiming for 100. Been watching what I eat, playing basketball with the kids, both love it. Started putting puzzles together of all things with the 6 year old. Completed a 1k piece one not too long ago. I have my art supplies I haven't touched in a long time. I was going to be an arts major long ago but stopped. I want some solice and trying to find the right time to get back into that, creating, painting. Hard to do when my 6 year old asks me to help him with his legos every 10 minutes. I've gone to the gym once on a weekend. I tend to sign up to do more of that. Maybe watch a couple movies by myself. Have tons of books to read.