Thanks Steve. I hope that happens to me although the thought of being with someone else, frankly, is unfathomable at this point...lol. Right now, I just want the chance to figure things out with my H. But...if that doesn't happen, the good news is if I start to feel differently, I already do have my own place. :-D
Steve, I'm curious. How did you get her to own up to her part in the failure of your marriage? That's probably a poor way of phrasing it, but I think you understand what I'm asking. I ask because W and I were talking a few weeks ago, and where I have accepted responsibility for my 50%, I really don't think she has, and it's making me wonder after so many years whether I would even like to R.
Jim, this is a good question. And one that, unfortunately in my case, doesn't have a good answer. Also, I am not sure it is a question that should be asked (I'll explain).
My best answer is that it was through DBing. When I started DBing (let her go to get her back, 180ing on bad behavior, GAL, and detaching) I think she started to take stock of what she was doing and how it would affect her life, and our D's life. It would have been easy for her to continue to feel justified in her decided course of action if I continued my boorish behavior and made no changes post BD. It was very gradual, over time that she started to wake up to the fact that our MR could be rebooted, and we could both be happy together.
As with most, she was leery of my changes at first. She'd seen that movie before, and as most WAWs, she wasn't sure if they were real and lasting and permanent. So for the first 2 months I don't think she was ready to own her own behavior (SSM, checking out housekeeping-wise, no longer trying herself in he MR).
A couple of key things:
First, MC. I think MC was where she saw me really taking ownership of my problems in the marriage. Until then she saw it as me "trying to convince her of my changes". But when I didn't excuse or deny my own shortcomings to an unbiased third party I think she started to trust that I really got my part in all that had happened.
Second, when I told her fairly early on in the MR that I had spoken to a lawyer, I think this surprised her. When she asked a few questions I said that if it came to it, I would be filing for D for adultery. (The jury was still out on that really, since it was never a PA and only an EA.) But this was the first time I saw her kind of realize that her actions were not justified. That turning the energy of the marriage outside of the marriage wasn't the way to try to fix things.
Since R I have seen a lot of 180s from her. She is back to making family dinners for all of us. Her housekeeping has been much better and she is making it a priority. We've been intimate regularly. So while there was never a moment where she said "Hey I realize what my part in the breakdown was." Her actions are speaking louder than her words. Words are just words, so I wouldn't put a lot into what she says. Even if she said "I realize my part in all of this" if her actions don't match that it doesn't mean anything.
The reason I say you shouldn't really ask that is because my fear is you are looking for a magic bullet that would bring about an AHA moment to your W. If that is what you are looking for then you will be disappointed because those types of things don't happen very often in sitches like ours. There isn't a lot you can do or say that bring about that kind of realization. In fact I think pointing it out will cause most WASs to deny, justify, avoid, etc. In other words it will have a negative impact on your sitch. Further, if you are looking for an AHA moment from her I think you will be disappointed. While I believe the majority WASs know deep down that what they are doing is wrong, human-beings have an unbelievable ability to do what I just said above: deny, justify, avoid, etc. Plus this is enhanced by certain personality types and flaws.
Hang in there Jim. Deep down she probably knows her own part. If you continue to DB, especially being consistent in your own 180'd behavior, she'll eventually come around, I believe.
I haven't replied because I've really been really thinking about what you said. I hear what you're saying about there not being an "AHA" moment, and her showing you that she got it. Problems I'm struggling with are 1) that we no longer live together, so there's little opportunity to see 180s on her part (I understand I will probably hear about changes in her behavior from friends/kids, etc.), and the kind of 180s I will see/hear won't give me any indication that she's interested in R, 2) in order for there to be a R, at this point, she would kind of have to come out and tell me she's interested in one, and I guess I don't care to give up what I've got going on without a commitment from her to do things differently, 3) she's not one to admit, even to herself, that she was wrong, and 4) a month ago when we talked, she was very clear that she didn't want to go to counseling again. I can't say the counsellors helped, so I can see why she feels that way. They weren't really DB coaches. I'd look for one, but doubt I will get her to go.
I'd love some further input.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
3) she's not one to admit, even to herself, that she was wrong, and 4) a month ago when we talked, she was very clear that she didn't want to go to counseling again. I can't say the counsellors helped, so I can see why she feels that way. They weren't really DB coaches. I'd look for one, but doubt I will get her to go.
I've heard sandi2 refer to MC as divorce counselors. At first, I didn't fully subscribe to this concept, but I think I now see the point. MC isn't going to fix MR. Ws don't usually like it because their shortcomings tend to come out in front of a witness. I remember early in my sitch I found a journal entry my W wrote regarding an MC session where she was extremely distressed and wrote that I had ripped her the shreds. Not that anything I had said was untrue, but that she had been exposed. I could hear her voice as I read it and knew her thought process. She saw this as all something that was happening to her. Not that she had caused any of it. Human nature. Personally, I remember the MC session as being cathartic, as I felt heard during a time when my pleas were falling on deaf ears. I didn't remember conducting any character assassination as she described.
Point is, these type sessions are bound to happen and depending on when in the process they happen, it probably doesn't support R. Once she commits to R and all the contempt and denial has subsided, only then, when you two agree to work on communication skills etc, will MC have any positive results. Hope this helps.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Ws don't usually like it because their shortcomings tend to come out in front of a witness. I remember early in my sitch I found a journal entry my W wrote regarding an MC session where she was extremely distressed and wrote that I had ripped her the shreds. Not that anything I had said was untrue, but that she had been exposed. I could hear her voice as I read it and knew her thought process. She saw this as all something that was happening to her. Not that she had caused any of it. Human nature.
RR, this is a great point and many of the newbies here could stand to understand this. WAWs and WWs in particular play the victim card. At every turn.
The biggest example is when confronted about their As. "Honey, I hired a PI and he followed you to the hotel where OM met you and you went into a room together!"
"HOW DARE YOU HIRE A PI TO FOLLOW ME!?!?"
Huh? As if hiring a PI is in any way as big of a betrayal as allowing another man to have his way with her body. But we aren't dealing with rational, logic creatures. THEY are the victim. (Ever seen the movie Liar Liar?)
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
FYI....after today I will be a little scarce. Going to hunting camp for a few days. I will try to check in when I can, but won't be responding as much as usual. This doesn't mean I've given up on any of you! I will continue to pray for each and everyone of you and your sitches!
Until next week!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
