Finding the Balance and then Tipping the Scale

[Adam04]

Here I’d say...GAL, 180s, detachment. :P

Hey Burned, working on that and thank you for the support. Going to put a lot of focus on how to deal with WW and grow my nuts back. I commented on your sitch, and I asked if there were any implications if we were to move out or them.

Been reading more posts and settling in for the long ride.
---

Sandi, I truly, truly, truly can't thank you enough and its never wordy.

Between last night and this morning, I checked out 2 things:

One is:

Forums > Staying Solution-Focused Workshop > LRT 

Stickied LRT post

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=42377#Post42377


Second is:

Here are some of the bullet items I had been thinking about earlier today that apply to me :

Sandi's Reflections 2:

Reasons women lose attraction and respect for their H:

* He may have a job she sees as "beneath him", doesn't pay enough, and he won't try to better himself.

* The H lacks male dominance. (The following was taken from another source). He lacks the take-charge ingredient when it comes to the MR and family life.

*The H is emotionally insecure. He is jealous, suspicious, fears, worries, expects the worst case scenario, gets anxious, etc. He doubts himself as a man. He needs constant assurances from his W that everything is fine.

*The H has no pride. He doesn't care about his personal appearance. He has allowed himself to gain too much weight, wears unflattering clothes, and has less than perfect personal grooming habits. He has no pride in keeping the vehicles washed and in working order. He has no pride in how the outside of his house looks, the yard, etc. He develops the habits of a slob, and won't clean up his own messes.

* The H has too much of the negative side of the Nice Guy Syndrome. He is passive, won't stand up to anyone, won't enforce disrespected boundaries, avoids conflict at all cost, over explains himself, etc.

* The H has a job that is considered lower ranked on the success ladder, than his W. He may have worked while she went to school to have a professional career. He was financially supporting her schooling, and paying their bills. After her career takes off, she begins to see him having a lesser important job, with lesser responsibility, and lesser income. She begins to treat him like one of her employees, except with less respect. He has done nothing wrong, but it is a glitch in the W and how she views her H from her new successful pedestal. In our modern world, we are seeing more couples dealing with this issue. Women need to "look up" to their H. If she is not mature enough, or they don't have a very strong/happy MR.....it can negatively influence the light of "success" she sees her H. She sees herself as "outgrowing" him. In most cases....the W's attraction and respect will begin to fade.

It can get a little confusing when LBH's come here to deal with our turmoil and we're looking to find what works or helps like detach, 180, & GAL'ing it up and figuring out how to handle our emotions while dealing with the WW or WAW(sometimes confused on which of the two we are dealing with). The above LRT link has a certain tone to it, be the rock, be the friend tone. Then we find out that doesn't work for WW so we need to make adjustments.

Trying to transition out of this loving, distancing space where we will give them all the time in the world to figure it out to the Tough Love Attitude that the WW needs, I've found myself misreading some of the rules and thinking because we can't do one thing like mentioning the OM that it means we can't set a boundary about OM. Maybe I'm not thinking right in thinking about the right kind of boundary to set. Now I hope that wasn't too wordy and that it makes sense.

I need to do some serious turning around; I was thinking of creating some action items to help improve with the bullets above, but I'm also eager to hear the continuation Sandi from where you left off at.

Your post got me fired up. Wish I knew how to handle talking to WW about A and setting a boundary without messing it up.

I've read your WW series, but it was at various times. I reread a WW thread just now and saw where you said once WW leaves house its harder to impose boundaries, those are best if we're still under one roof. That then leads to my question on what are some common boundaries for IHS?

Coincidentally I had Googled respect in relationships a couple of weeks back. Think I saw what you were referring to with the Respect > Attraction > Intimacy.


I feel like I am going to be missing something important so I'll try to look back and reread things when I can. Thank you for being patient as well. When I read that H needs to get to a point where he wont deal with her cr4p anymore, I'm thinking oh she's got to go NOW because of everything already done, stuff from the BD day, her lying, the books... Why can't I just throw her stuff out and say, "I'm done with your cheating ways? " I'm not able to tie this all together yet. I guess I need to see some workable boundaries, what those look like and then one for the big A and what that looks like. This is my thought. in 2 months, I'd be saving a little more money and I'd be learning and working with setting small boundaries. Once I'm prepared to set up the big boundary in the A, I'll set it up and see what she does. I'll ask her to leave??? if not... then if she doesn't, I'll have to leave. Hopefully by then I would have consulted with a lawyer to determine if that's the best option.


Please advise me not to get all b4llsy right now before doing the appropriate homework...

The reason for the 7 months was to also save more money for an apartment and new car. I told her I would move in if I need more time to save money since she said she would help with that, this was in the beginning when we both said okay we will D and then work this other stuff out with the finances and split money when we sell the house. I don't want to be just friends. I want an honest, good shot at saving the MR because I know we both have some fixing to do and we both can come out better people in the end. I was going to split after the 7 months from her and then we all deal with the physical separation. I was "hoping" that in that time she would see a little more of the "changed Man" and then get hit when we separate and maybe wake up. NO? Doesn't sound like a good plan?


Okay, Happy Thanksgiving.

[burned]

Your post got me fired up. Wish I knew how to handle talking to WW about A and setting a boundary without messing it up.

Sandi's posts have a way of getting us Nice Guys fired up. That's exactly her goal! But then you said,

Please advise me not to get all b4llsy right now before doing the appropriate homework...

which suggests a reasonable degree of caution, because it's tempting to overdo it. Yes, take the time, do your homework. And when it comes time to act, act quickly and decisively, and don't back down.

I'm thinking oh she's got to go NOW because of everything already done, stuff from the BD day, her lying, the books... Why can't I just throw her stuff out and say, "I'm done with your cheating ways? "

No joke, MONTHS ago I had everyone I know IRL telling me to do exactly that. Even my IC who is normally very reserved and doesn't give any straight advice, said, "How about this, what if you said to her, get out, and don't come back until you're ready to work on this M"? My parents said the same thing. People I work with (stupidly I told them about my sitch) wondered WTF I was doing letting her stay, and they lost respect for me that I'm only now starting to rebuild. That was back in April. But here's the thing, back in April I didn't have the b@lls to do it, and I was terrified that that would mean I'd lose her. In fact there were TWO times, first on BD when I confronted her about the A, then in June when she said she wanted S and was moving out...TWO opportunities for me to say, "Yeah, that's right, GTFO." IT WAS A TEST. And I failed, both times. What I know now is that I may have lost her because I didn't do that. I regret it, so so badly. But I didn't know then what I know now. That was before DB.
Does she respect me now? I doubt it. And now that we are physically S and don't talk except a text message every week or two to deal with finances or for her to try to manipulate me by talking about D, there's little I can do to regain respect. I just went dark. For example, she says happy thanksgiving, I say nothing. Does that send the message that I respect myself too much to want to have anything to do with her? Or do I just come across as a coward who is sulking because he didn't get what he wants?
The POINT is that you still have SO much room to work with. You have no idea. Be thankful for that. Take your time to think about what you want to do, and why. And then do it. Short-term misery, long-term happiness. You're on the right track I think, but I'm not the expert here.

I was "hoping" that in that time she would see a little more of the "changed Man" and then get hit when we separate and maybe wake up. NO? Doesn't sound like a good plan?

Sounds like a great plan, and 7 months is a long time. If you do this right, consistently, and without mercy, you just might be one of the success stories. Or at least you might find that you don't end up S. Who knows?

[sandi2]

This is my third continuation post, trying to address some of the things you posted to me (yesterday, I think). Maybe I can wrap it up in this third one. (lol)

Help rekindle and stoke those flames of purpose, focus, and determination. I'm not scared, I've been passive, not realizing the dangers and damage that can/has cause(d). I want to do what's necessary to make this work.

I read back over your first post in this thread, where you gave some background of how the M got to this point. You made the mistake many people make after they get the bride/groom. I'm going to make a guess here. Your lack of attentiveness to the relationship, and your apparent (from the way I read it) lack of passion in life, and your loss of personal pride in your appearance...…... negatively impacted your W and the MR. I'm going to make another stab in guessing things were not exactly sizzling in the bedroom, either. You took her for granted, obviously. And at the same time, you had a lot of insecurities based on your past hurts. I don't have to ask her to know her emotional needs were not fulfilled by her H. That's why she turned to romantic novels, then started responding to some man who knew what to say to make her feel special. In other words, he started filling her emotional needs. You see, all those years, she slowly built up resentment and disrespect for you. But, she probably pushed it down in her heart, so it stayed there, unresolved, and grew to the point of rebellion. This is the foundation in the heart of a wayward W. It didn't happen over night. You may not have been aware of her feelings, but it took time for her to reach the point of being vulnerable to some guy's sweet words that turned her head away from her M.

In order to stoke the flames of purpose and determination, you are going to have to change, Adam. And understand something, b/c this is vitally important. It MUST be life changing. In other words, you can't just pick up a few tips of how to spruce up and woo her out of the arms of OM...….and then fall back into your lazy, passive ways again. It destroyed your M, b/c it sucked the life out of it. You may need IC, or whatever it takes to put a rocket in your a$$…….but you have lost your W due to all of the above. Yes, you are responsible for your actions. You are NOT responsible for her choosing to have an affair. Her unmet emotional needs left her vulnerable, but she is responsible for deceiving, betraying, etc. I suspect the loss of her father was the tipping point. She probably needed grief counseling. But it all worked together to reach this point.

You remind me of another former board member. Oh boy, when he decided to change......he gave it a 100%. If he could bottle and sell that incentive, he'd be rich! I don't know what is more incentive than trying to save yourself and start really living life with passion. There are so many motivational talks on You Tube; books written about having passion for life, etc. If that doesn't help, then I suggest you try therapy, b/c there's something deeper inside that needs to be addressed.

I'm also here thinking, even if I didn't fill her life full of happiness, and there were bad days, that still doesn't make it right to do what she is doing. I was going to say it doesn't give her right to do what she is doing, but isn't that controlling?

Controlling? What are you controlling? No, it has nothing to do about controlling. Hummm, she must throw that word around a lot.

Okay, got to run. Hope you have a good Thanksgiving.

[FlySolo]

Hi Adam,

It looks like you've got lots of really good advice from Sandi and others ... and to be honest, Sandi is far more articulate and much more familiar with the WW than me so I will stick to answering the question you posed to me on Burned's thread re how we went from IHS to MO.

There was no discussion. It was a slow escalation (mostly by me in my angry desperate moods) over a period of three months, and then three months for him to eventually MO. If I had not pushed he wouldn't have gone.

My sitch is different to some of the others here. There was no OW. He did not want to leave (I pushed him). He was just desperately unhappy. I wish I knew that when this started. A lot of what has happened since has been my doing.

For example, she says happy thanksgiving, I say nothing. Does that send the message that I respect myself too much to want to have anything to do with her? Or do I just come across as a coward who is sulking because he didn't get what he wants?

It is such a difficult balance. I would respond "Thank you. You too". I get a lot of texts/emails about the children. His are more wordy then mine. My responses tend to be "Sure", "No problem" or "I can't".

[Adam04]

In reflecting back after Thanksgiving,

I've looked back over my thread and in 2 weeks time from joining the forum, I've tried to listen to the advice and apply changes where I could, and accepting my sitch. I've accepted that I'm dealing with a wayward wife, that I am responsible for what I've done, and she is responsible for her actions. I've learned a lot, that I was in denial and that my whole way of looking at things was wrong(thinking the other person in the MR could fix me or had a responsibility to make me whole, and that I was responsible for her, I felt like I was to blame for her actions). I've learned that the fight has just begun and it will be a long road ahead. I learned that I need to change for me and NOT HER. I learned that the mentality of the WW is a different beast, and that I have NGS(nice guy syndrome). When I thought I should be the one leaving and packing up, I learned of the implications this had and doing this out of anger has no purpose. I learned that when I thought I was making a stand, I was controlling, not setting real boundaries but ultimatums. I'm accepting that I don't have all the answers and that I can come here for advice, comfort, and just to let it out.

I was naïve, and thought that love was unconditional; I had forgotten it needed steady nurturing to grow & sustain. I'm learning, being open and honest, being humble, listening, sharing, and willing to change. I know I've been stubborn and what I thought worked isn't working. I'm learning to also be patient and get up and do, do for self and regain back the passion for life I lost somewhere along the way. I'm learning to rebuild, starting with myself ,and I thank you for the help along the way.

I truly feel like I'm at an advantage going into this by the advice and support I've received thus far. It's helped me to sleep better & feel better, to let go of some of the guilt and sorrow, to focus more on getting action plans together for me and my kids. It's helped me to become centered, stable, and not emotional. I know what to do now opposed to a month ago. I'm still learning, I know there is a lot more to learn. I still have a long way to go, whatever the end looks like I will take it one day at a time. One day, I will learn to paraphrase all this.

short term goals/to do list:

1 Finish reading DR(goal is to get a better understanding of the book in its entirety and learn what techniques I can use)

2 Reread the threads on WW and go through the replies, I wasn't able to do that the first run.( goal is to get better understanding of WW and when/how to respond)

3 Get the list of local attorneys completed and see who can schedule Saturday appointments first, then work around my work schedule.(looking to start realistically in Jan after holidays, I talked to work on available days I could schedule appointments, I have dates ready to schedule with attorneys) goal is to know my legal rights and protect myself.

4 Maybe pick up the boundary book mentioned in the Boundaries sticky. (goal is to learn more about setting appropriate boundaries for myself)

5 Research some motivational videos, consider setting up IC. (goal: find out what will help me regain passion for life)

6 Work out at least 4 days a week, Goal : want to lose 8-10 pounds each month for next 6 months.(want to take 2-3 days out of week to get home and help bathe the little one so I will have to work out at home)

7 Get to the Resources thread and Go through each one. I haven't come across the Cashier story yet... (goal, knowledge gathering)

8 Research Alpha Male info. (goal: bigger b@ll$)
(Just going to say after I deleted a long post, that there was a time when I didn't need this, my W would say she was addicted to my smell, my pheromones. I don't want to sound pompous, vain, or like a braggart so I'm not going into details of my past except it's kinda hard to swallow when I thought my changes were for the better and MR was safe.

9 GAL going to see Venom by myself.. maybe this weekend on Sunday. (Goal, enjoy time away, maybe it will help to detach?)

10 Shop for better fitted clothes. I'm still wearing some clothes that's a size too big. (Goal: feel better, feel more confident, look better, get that swag back.)

11 Buy some pickets and 2x4 to fill in some gaps in the back fence. Was thinking about doing this tomorrow. Will need W car. (goal: GAL, spending time away from W)

12 Research how to get back Respect in MR.(goal: understanding this key element and first building block to successful relationship with WW)

13 Read No More Mr Nice Guy (goal: learn how to gain respect back) (bought it, will read it tonight)

[Adam04]

Your post got me fired up. Wish I knew how to handle talking to WW about A and setting a boundary without messing it up.

Sandi's posts have a way of getting us Nice Guys fired up. That's exactly her goal! But then you said,

Please advise me not to get all b4llsy right now before doing the appropriate homework...

which suggests a reasonable degree of caution, because it's tempting to overdo it. Yes, take the time, do your homework. And when it comes time to act, act quickly and decisively, and don't back down.

That's the plan, gather all the info I need and identify when its the right opportunity and strike when the iron is hot.

Does she respect me now? I doubt it.

You are separated. Didn't it takes b@lls for you to do that? I don't think you can gauge that really, to be fair. You're saying my W won't gain any respect for me if I left as well? I'm hearing if I stay in IHS too, with an empty boundary, it would be worse.

And now that we are physically S and don't talk except a text message every week or two to deal with finances or for her to try to manipulate me by talking about D, there's little I can do to regain respect. I just went dark. For example, she says happy thanksgiving, I say nothing. Does that send the message that I respect myself too much to want to have anything to do with her? Or do I just come across as a coward who is sulking because he didn't get what he wants?

Don't be so hard on yourself. Every chance you have to text your W about finances or even D, seems like a chance to leave the slightest impression. Don't overthink it. There's going to be Christmas and New Year so figure it out now, no harm.

My W texted me earlier about her and the kids not coming home, they're spending the night at a brother's house. I didn't respond back. Should I be thinking the same thing of what she thinks of me? When I first did that, ignore her informational text, she started to text like," Oh what now, you not texting me back?" She might be thinking I'm playing games. I'm not, I'm learning to let go. A fleeting thought crossed my mind on what if she dropped the kids off and told her brother that she was coming home or whatever else she wants to do in the night. I'm 100% good with it. Won't call the in laws, wont snoop etc. She may have been upset tonight that I did not go with her to her brother's Thanksgiving dinner, but for me to speculate would be wasted energy.

The POINT is that you still have SO much room to work with.
Sounds like a great plan, and 7 months is a long time. If you do this right, consistently, and without mercy, you just might be one of the success stories. Or at least you might find that you don't end up S. Who knows?

Earlier on page 2, Max listed a couple of pointers about IHS and said that they rarely worked.

Going to work on gaining that Respect back.

That's why I am always telling you guys that every thing you do from this point forward, has to be seen through the lens of respect.

For the next seven months, your approach or how you see this MR needs to change.

If you have not read the no more mr. nice guy book, I can't tell you enough just how important it is to your MR......and the rest of your life.....than for you to understand the NGS

I bought the No More Mr Nice Guy book and will read that ASAP. She wants BAD? I'm going to whisper sweet nothings into that big ole ear of hers. j/k I shouldn't be playing right now.

Does she let you look at her phone?

Yes, but I don't. She says she has nothing to hide and leaves the phone around. She'll take a long 2-3 hour nap and leave it on the table, BUT this was only recently. She's got good at hiding now. She is most likely the one who is initiating contact with OM first. I've never gone through her phone. I checked it once on BD asking her about the text I knew she received but checking her phone she deleted it. If I wanted to, I have the phone # she texted that day and could call it from her phone to see who picks up, but I haven't gone to that level. I want to have some dignity and integrity intact but at some point I might throw all that out the window and get low right with her if it comes down to it.

You may see yourself as a good man, who tries to live peacefully. Perhaps you think you are very patient b/c you hold your tongue, instead of saying what you'd really like to say. Maybe you are kind, considerate, and can be very tender toward the feelings of others. Guess what? You can be all these things and not have NGS. On the other hand, you may see yourself this way.....but have NGS.

Yup, this was how I was seeing myself.

So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.

I was going to use this time to save up and shape up, then when it came time to move out, we deal with the physical separation and I was hoping from all the manly changes that it would wake up her where she cant deal with being separated.

For now within the next 7 months, If she doesn't force a conversation to be kicked out, am I supposed to initiate something to kick her out? I thought the answer was no, so I was going to wait for us to split and see how she deals with that. If I shouldn't move out of the house, and if you are saying I should consider trying to get her out the house before the 7 months, how does that conversation look on my part?

I read back over your first post in this thread, where you gave some background of how the M got to this point. You made the mistake many people make after they get the bride/groom.

In order to stoke the flames of purpose and determination, you are going to have to change, Adam. And understand something, b/c this is vitally important. It MUST be life changing. In other words, you can't just pick up a few tips of how to spruce up and woo her out of the arms of OM...….and then fall back into your lazy, passive ways again. It destroyed your M, b/c it sucked the life out of it. You may need IC, or whatever it takes to put a rocket in your a$$

Assumptions for the most part are okay. As to losing the passion for life? It's hard to say, I've written this a dozen times and deleted. Maybe an IC would help me. Don't think I'm ready to share that to the world.

Controlling? What are you controlling? No, it has nothing to do about controlling. Hummm, she must throw that word around a lot.

We both have said the other person is controlling for a long time. I've told her if you want to get your way doing this, you need to do this or that too then. I'm sure it's left her feeling like she's been doing everything. We used to call it this balance. Its like tit for tat though.

[Adam04]

Hi Adam,

I will stick to answering the question you posed to me on Burned's thread re how we went from IHS to MO.

There was no discussion. It was a slow escalation (mostly by me in my angry desperate moods) over a period of three months, and then three months for him to eventually MO. If I had not pushed he wouldn't have gone.

My sitch is different to some of the others here. There was no OW. He did not want to leave (I pushed him). He was just desperately unhappy. I wish I knew that when this started. A lot of what has happened since has been my doing.

Sorry to hear. It's hard when one person is unhappy and bringing that energy to the family. I know I am at fault for that. I wasn't happy with something she did or did not do, then I either do something stupid or not do anything at all when she needed me to. What makes things also a little confusing was how we used to joke about everything. We could diffuse anything but over the years, it became less jokey, jokey and more like Hey, I mean it this time, while the other one is still laughing at the person or not taking it seriously.

I can see you wanting to be there for him. Make sure as you do, you take care of yourself first and foremost.

[ovrrnbw]

Adam,

I really like your detailed post on your mindset, goals, and what you have learned. You will be better for doing all of that.

[MoveFrwd]

Don’t forget that there is definitely more to GAL than just staying busy. Sure, it feels good to get projects done around the house and it’s good to read books. But I think a big part of GAL is going out and having new adventures and meeting new people and expanding your social network to build confidence. How are you accomplishing that?

[Adam04]

Ovrrnbw, Thank you. I found it therapeutic to post & revisit.

Don’t forget that there is definitely more to GAL than just staying busy. Sure, it feels good to get projects done around the house and it’s good to read books. But I think a big part of GAL is going out and having new adventures and meeting new people and expanding your social network to build confidence. How are you accomplishing that?

Thank you Amoafwl, I just finished reading No More Mr Nice Guy, so I agree 100% that GAL benefits are 10fold. A bud of mine whom I recently visited is going to have a holiday get together soon and he usually has people from his work and some neighbors over. Met some before, was a nice time. Looking forward to that. Other than that, not really a lot of new people, have some stuff coming up with a couple of brothers to work out at the gym and help restore an old fixer upper. Thinking tomorrow I might catch a movie and hit up a clothing store I usually go to, they're pretty talkative there. At work, I have a work buddy who works out with me Mon - Thurs and we talk while working out. Might hang out with him and try a Chinese buffet, but I'm not pushing on that one.


Speaking of the book, I have full blown NGS. Didn't know it would be deep seeded. Going to need a minute to take this all in.