what the heck is happening, is this DB?

[FlySolo]

B - I am on my phone and on the train so can’t really quote or respond fully. I will do so later when I get a quiet moment at work.

The crux of it is that when you are in the middle of it all you see each event, each insult, each act of manipulation in isolation. Then something happens, and we reel from the new insult or we take hope from a little act of apparent kindness. Read back through your thread. Read it as an outsider looking in. What advice would you give that person?

I can bet, without a shadow of a doubt, that advice would be to stand up for yourself. To cut her off financially (or course, within the constraints set out by your lawyer). Do not pay for her to have an affair - she is making you a mug. Sadly, you know this, so on top of everything else, you are hating yourself for being treated like a mug. BTW - my definition of mug is someone who knows that they are being taken advantage of, knows the person taking advantage of them knows they are taking advantage, but allows it anyway in the hopes that somehow it will lead to them not being taken advantage of. Can you see how futile it is?

Oh - I am better at giving advice than taking it. Rationally I can see my H is a selfish [censored]. I know he has taken advantage of me financially and emotionally and he keeps doing it because I fear, and I know he knows that I fear, what will happen if I stand up for myself. So, I know just how hard standing up for yourself is. I make tiny dents in this daily. But, I am not financing an affair ...

[burned]

someone who knows that they are being taken advantage of, knows the person taking advantage of them knows they are taking advantage, but allows it anyway in the hopes that somehow it will lead to them not being taken advantage of. Can you see how futile it is?

I think this is where I struggle most. Because when I read about everyone else, I see actions that are self-centered, perpetrated by self-centered WASes who manipulate us, either overtly or in subtle ways. But when I think of my W, I’m stuck seeing her as a kind person who is suffering, who deserves to have what she wants even if it’s not me, whose actions are reasonably straightforward...etc. I had trouble starting DB after joining the board because I didn’t see her as being wayward, or didn’t want to see her that way. So I took the WAW approach and tried to be friendly. As you can see, I cycled through moments when I was convinced that she was still with OM despite her being very clear that she wasn’t. But that wouldn’t be the first time she lied. So now I have no idea.

The problem is and has been that she doesn’t have her own income, but she worked in the past, so the money in our savings is hers, too, both legally and in a concrete sense. So I feel obligated to let her spend it. And it’s all fungible so it doesn’t matter much if she uses the credit card now and I have to pay it off with savings. And lastly, I don’t ask her when I use the card. It’s all really murky.

What I’m trying to figure out is whether my guilt and sense of obligation is mine, or whether she is Scarlett O’Hara playing me like a fiddle. I’m learning that she’s good at shifting the blame and making others feel guilty. And I think she has always controlled me that way because it works. But I have also controlled her that way.

Maybe I’m not explaining it well because it’s confusing. In the end I’m still not sure if she knows she is taking advantage. To me it seems less intentional than that. I have convinced myself (correctly or incorrectly) that she is now just a woman who plans to be divorced and wants access to her money so that she can move on with her life. What difference does it make what happened in the past? I’m angry at what she did and how it affected me. And I feel used. But I don’t see a point in being “difficult” during the D just because of how we arrived at D. And she doesn’t seem like the type who will try to get more than what’s hers. Maybe this is extreme NGS and she is using it against me? The way she made a “threat that isn’t a threat” was very strange, not typical of her. Almost like the more obstacles I create, the more she shows her true colors. That’s a translation of something AnotherStander wrote a few days ago.

And then at that point it starts to become clear that she is being nice to get what she wants because she knows I will cooperate if she passes herself off as cooperative. Next thing you know, I think to myself, “She really is a monster, she is still with OM, he is coaching, they are both facilitating each other’s divorces, and when they are finally rid of their stupid spouses they will live happily ever after with a house I helped to buy and repair and a pile of cash.” I get resentful. And in that scenario she seems ruthless, calculating, and cold. But she passes herself off as being nice and just wanting to get out of this loveless M with a minimum of fuss.

Then other people say, OK, then why didn’t she have the guts to sit you down and tell you she wanted out? One feeble attempt to see if I wanted to do MC (before the A began) but she didn’t I didn’t. Then the A happened. And after all the things she said after BD, I feel like it’s primarily my fault, and that she had no other way of getting out from my controlling grip (exit affair)...and I am to blame, for the most part, or at least it feels that way.

Impossible to know what’s real and what isn’t. And difficult for me to distinguish what comes from her influence vs. what is internal. Because I have internalized her ideas about how and why everything happened. But then I’m left with the feeling that it doesn’t all add up.

Does any of this make sense? I think I’m confused by it because it’s confusing. Or because I don’t want to admit that my dear W is the same as all the other WWs. She was always such a very nice person. Or, depending on who you ask, she pretended to be, so that she could get what she wants, and I was blind to it for a decade. That makes her sound like a sociopath. It’s all very bewildering.

But it’s all a lot of ruminating, unless by analyzing it I can arrive at some kind of insight that allows me to influence the course of events. Or at least just get better at letting go.

[AnotherStander]

Month 4 for me. That's still considered "nothing", even though a lot of changes have been made and sticking.

What is considered a "good" DBing time? If such a thing exists?

It's a great question because most people come here with unrealistic expectations about how long it takes to save a M. I've been around here a little bit and I've seen many sitches play out. And knocking on the door of 60, I've seen many play out IRL as well. Here is the pattern I've seen time and time again:

1. BD
2. LBS is sad and desperate and needy and doing anything to get WAS back, frantic that everything they are doing is "wrong" and desperate to know what are the "right" things to do to make things normal again
3. LBS works on themselves following a bunch of "steps" all with the thought of bringing the WAS back
4. WAS is still not interested, so LBS declares they are over WAS and moving on and will be fine with or without the WAS, while both feet are still planted firmly in 2 and 3
5. LBS realizes this really isn't going to "go back to normal" or be cured overnight
6. LBS starts rebuilding their life and REALLY letting the WAS go
7. LBS starts coming out of the fog and realizes the folly of 2-4 above
8. LBS drops the rope, embraces GAL, starts to find happiness again
9. WAS discovers that the life of freedom and fun they thought they were achieving is not there, begins working on themselves and wrestling with their internal demons
10. WAS starts to miss the LBS

I bet if I asked any of you, even the newer people, to name who here is in steps 2 and 3 and who is in 8 you'd be able to tell me with 95% accuracy for anyone except yourself. Just about all of you that have been here less than a year are in 2 and 3. Most of you are trying hard to convince yourselves you are in 6-8, but you are not even close. And let me tell you, you CANNOT make any wise decisions about ANYTHING when you are in 2-3. This is why we constantly counsel LBS's to WAIT before making any decisions regarding S or D. You are not in the right frame of mind, and worse, you DON'T KNOW you're not in the right frame of mind.

PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE.

Now that I've said that, not all sitches make it to these steps but many (maybe even most) do:

11. WAS wants to reconcile
12A. LBS has moved on to the point that they no longer want to reconcile with the WAS. Reasons usually include "I never want to go through that again" and/ or "once I came out of the fog I realized he/she wasn't that great of a person after all."
12B. LBS decides to give recon a try
13. Recon

Of course every LBS wants to know how long it takes to get to 11. The answer is: a lot longer than most have patience for. I've seen it happen in less than a year maybe twice. I've seen more in the 1-2 year range. I've seen most in the 2+ year range. I know no one wants to hear that, but I think if you know the reality of this you'll realize just how long the road is ahead of you. If you have to run a marathon I am not doing you a service by telling you it's only a mile long, then when you get to the mile marker tell you "oops it's a little longer" and such. You need to know how long a journey it really is.

[burned]

Yikes. I’m maybe at step 3 on a good day. I’ve had a small taste of step 4. I’d be happy just to get to step 10 because I have no evidence that she has ever missed me. But as you’ve said, even if she did she wouldn’t provide any evidence.

Two years. The thing is, it’s not like we can just “wait” 2 years. We have to live life in the meantime. But in a funny way, what you’re saying is reassuring. Because it means that D isn’t “the abyss” and even if you HAVE moved on she might still swing by and say hi.

The paradox (and maybe this is just me) is that if you knew that she would definitely be back in 1 year, 11 months, and 4 days...you’d sit there waiting rather than putting in the work. And then she wouldn’t be back. Or she would check and still not be interested. On the other hand it would be nice to know that putting in the work will result in that. That’s when people jump in and say, the work is worth putting in no matter what, and you have a long life ahead of you, with or without her.

I guess what makes me nervous in my sitch is that she seems to be pushing for D before reaching step 9. Let’s go with the idea that D isn’t a dealbreaker. And that like you said before, currently she feels that this is her only option. (Maybe because she has committed to OM and wants to bring that out into the open. Whatever.)

[AnotherStander]

I think this is where I struggle most. Because when I read about everyone else, I see actions that are self-centered, perpetrated by self-centered WASes who manipulate us, either overtly or in subtle ways. But when I think of my W, I’m stuck seeing her as a kind person who is suffering, who deserves to have what she wants even if it’s not me, whose actions are reasonably straightforward...etc. I had trouble starting DB after joining the board because I didn’t see her as being wayward, or didn’t want to see her that way. So I took the WAW approach and tried to be friendly. As you can see, I cycled through moments when I was convinced that she was still with OM despite her being very clear that she wasn’t. But that wouldn’t be the first time she lied. So now I have no idea.

The problem is and has been that she doesn’t have her own income, but she worked in the past, so the money in our savings is hers, too, both legally and in a concrete sense. So I feel obligated to let her spend it. And it’s all fungible so it doesn’t matter much if she uses the credit card now and I have to pay it off with savings. And lastly, I don’t ask her when I use the card. It’s all really murky.

Burned you are spinning. You're giving her way too much head space. Please stop second-guessing every little thing you do because that makes you look very indecisive. Stick to your guns. You've consulted us, your L, and your IC and we've all pretty much told you the same thing as far as what to do. Yet you still want to sit here and explain why you think we are all wrong. But your WAS is not unique. She does not deserve special treatment. Whether she's doing what she's doing because she's a lying cheater or because she's hurt and damaged doesn't really matter. She's doing it, she doesn't know why, and you will never know why. No matter what you do right now she's not coming back, that's way down the road if it happens. So quit worrying about whether you're causing more damage, the answer is no, you are not.

Maybe I’m not explaining it well because it’s confusing. In the end I’m still not sure if she knows she is taking advantage. To me it seems less intentional than that. I have convinced myself (correctly or incorrectly) that she is now just a woman who plans to be divorced and wants access to her money so that she can move on with her life.

The problem is she has an entitlement mentality like all WAS's. And it's a hole that can never be filled. You can toss more and more and more into it and she will just demand you keep throwing it in. So let your L and the courts determine your legal obligations because you will never satisfy her desires in this regard.

Next thing you know, I think to myself, “She really is a monster, she is still with OM, he is coaching, they are both facilitating each other’s divorces, and when they are finally rid of their stupid spouses they will live happily ever after with a house I helped to buy and repair and a pile of cash.” I get resentful. And in that scenario she seems ruthless, calculating, and cold. But she passes herself off as being nice and just wanting to get out of this loveless M with a minimum of fuss.

Most WAS's seem like monsters, but they're really just very selfish. They are placing their wants and needs above everyone else's in their life. They are causing a train wreck and shrugging their shoulders at the damage. I fully believe they should NOT get a free pass for this. Do not ever dismiss her responsibility in making this mess, sure you may have made mistakes in the M but we all do. This is on her, and she should feel some fallout from it. That's not revenge, that's just her learning that her poor decisions have ramifications. It's a life lesson.

And after all the things she said after BD, I feel like it’s primarily my fault, and that she had no other way of getting out from my controlling grip (exit affair)...and I am to blame, for the most part, or at least it feels that way.

That's 100% NGS.

I think I’m confused by it because it’s confusing. Or because I don’t want to admit that my dear W is the same as all the other WWs.

BINGO.

[Twofeet]

AS if you had to judge your own sitch would you be in 8 or would you be in 12A with step 11 getting skipped?

I'm guessing in some sitch 12a comes before 11 and then it's too late for WAS, or WAS never hits 11, but regrets their decision, does nothing about it, and regrets or has to live with it for the rest of there life. Something like that is pretty sad.

[AnotherStander]

Two years. The thing is, it’s not like we can just “wait” 2 years. We have to live life in the meantime.

Exactly right, and that's the rub. If you're just sitting around waiting for her you never get to those later steps. And 5-8 must happen before 10 does.

But in a funny way, what you’re saying is reassuring. Because it means that D isn’t “the abyss” and even if you HAVE moved on she might still swing by and say hi.

Quite right. Get this, my ex invited me to Thanksgiving at her mom's house. I'm not saying it's a recon attempt, but here we are years past BD and she's reaching out in surprising ways. I haven't been to her mom's in years, since we were separated.

The paradox (and maybe this is just me) is that if you knew that she would definitely be back in 1 year, 11 months, and 4 days...you’d sit there waiting rather than putting in the work. And then she wouldn’t be back. Or she would check and still not be interested. On the other hand it would be nice to know that putting in the work will result in that. That’s when people jump in and say, the work is worth putting in no matter what, and you have a long life ahead of you, with or without her.

Yes, you get it! So there it is, the ONLY path to recon is for you to truly let go of her. Easier said than done I know. This is why it's a marathon, because letting go is the hardest part and takes a lot of time. The sooner you let go the faster your recon will happen if it happens. But you can't pretend to let go, you really have to. And THAT is the trick.

[burned]

Please stop second-guessing every little thing you do because that makes you look very indecisive. Stick to your guns. You've consulted us, your L, and your IC and we've all pretty much told you the same thing as far as what to do.

Understood. And I appreciate your bluntness because it helps me see the EFFECTS of what I say, despite my intions. I’m learning to pay more attention to how I come across, not just what I want to say. That’s an important 180, for sure.

And I’m fighting the worst case of NGS since the 1917 epidemic of Spanish NGS-fluenza.

I think it’s safe to say that I can be fairly tough with W now and as long as it’s not cruel or punitive, I’m good to go. Hmm, now that I typed that, it sounds a lot like what I was told here weeks ago.

[FlySolo]

]Because when I read about everyone else, I see actions that are self-centered, perpetrated by self-centered WASes who manipulate us, either overtly or in subtle ways.

This is what I read when reading your thread. It is probably what people think when reading my thread. But I do not have the depth of feeling for your W that you do. I do not have your memories or your broken heart.

But when I think of my W, I’m stuck seeing her as a kind person who is suffering, who deserves to have what she wants even if it’s not me, whose actions are reasonably straightforward...etc.

It is OK to still remember the woman she was. It is OK to want to understand the why. This is one of the steps to acceptance and being able to move on in a compassionate and understanding way. But understanding the why does not necessarily justify the actions. It just sets the foundation for forgiveness. For now concentrate on you and getting yourself to a place where you are happy with who you are.

So I took the WAW approach and tried to be friendly.

Is there a difference in approach? My H is a WA and I have tried the friendly approach.

The problem is and has been that she doesn’t have her own income, but she worked in the past, so the money in our savings is hers, too, both legally and in a concrete sense. So I feel obligated to let her spend it. And it’s all fungible so it doesn’t matter much if she uses the credit card now and I have to pay it off with savings. And lastly, I don’t ask her when I use the card. It’s all really murky.

No one is saying he unfair. Just that you draw a line. Use your own moral compass (and legal advice) to decide what is fair and what you can live with. You need to be able to look in the mirror and see a man that you are proud of.

If it were me, I would:

a) Cancel all the joint credit cards - if there is money still owing on them use the money in your shared savings to pay off the debt. It wouldn't matter to me who acquired the debt - it is shared debt and should be paid off 50/50.
b) Close all shared savings accounts - split the remaining money in those accounts 50/50. Again, it would not matter to me who put more money in.

If she wants to p!ss the money up the wall on holidays and nights out with OM that is up to her. It also becomes up to her how she pays for her tuition and her living expenses. If the savings don't cover it, then she will HAVE TO GET A JOB.

PS - I moved out at 17 and worked two part time jobs whilst doing my undergrad. I did my post grad whilst holding down a full time job. It is not beyond reason that she could get herself a job. She is an adult and should face the same responsibilities as all adults.

I’m learning that she’s good at shifting the blame and making others feel guilty ... And then at that point it starts to become clear that she is being nice to get what she wants because she knows I will cooperate if she passes herself off as cooperative.

^^^^ this is important because it says you know exactly what she is doing. This is what I meant by manipulative. If I was of a wayward mentality, happily spending my time with OM, finishing my course, without a care in the world for those I'm hurting, then I would continue guilting you into paying my way for me.

The way she made a “threat that isn’t a threat” was very strange, not typical of her. Almost like the more obstacles I create, the more she shows her true colors. That’s a translation of something AnotherStander wrote a few days ago.

AnotherStander is very wise

Like yours my H does the friendly, co-operative thing too, right up until I stand up for myself. Then the bully comes out and I get called names (selfish, cold, unemotional, not caring about your children). Your W seems to resort to distressed child "you're being unfair". Both responses show immaturity and, if we weren't stuck in the middle of it, we would both find laughable.

Their true colors come out when they are challenged or aren't getting their own way. Mine, strangely enough, shows his true colors when he is suspicious of what I have been doing.

[lost8]

Bravo AS, first I have seen a timeline laid out like this....and it is spot on. I am firmly in #7 and am feeling happy again even not knowing how things will turn out.