will this thread last more than 5 days? (burned)

[FlySolo]

Burn - apologies I am going to hijack your thread for a minute and try and (in as much as I understand it) respond to Adam's question ..

Can you enlighten me on why it's important to not move out or that we should be the ones staying and they move out? What are the implications?

I have not read your sitch (I will try and catch up today) so am not sure if your W has MO or not.

Personally, I think the answer to your question is that it is partly about making a stance. It says in no uncertain terms, "You are the one bailing out of the M and this M includes our home - I am staying put". 1. MO is a tangible consequence of their actions and 2, it shows the WW that you are not some broken thing that they can continue to manipulate and bully into doing whatever they want. They are in la la land where they get to live in their home and there are no financial or emotional consequences for them.

Sandi puts it much better than I but ultimately the WW will have more respect for you. A woman cannot be attracted to that which she does not respect. More importantly though, you will have more respect for you.

Having said all that, an IHS is hell. They will bait you and try and manipulate you at every opportunity. They will force you to doubt yourself and everything you stand for. I imagine some of this baiting may be to try and get you to say something or do something that they can use to force you out of the house. I have read (I can't remember the thread of a WW trying to use sex to get her H to move out). Without the tools here - 180, detaching, GAL - an IHS is almost impossible to get through with your self-esteem and sense of worth intact. I know, I did it for 6 months (before I discovered this site) and my self esteem was in tatters. I was only able to start rebuilding once he MO.

I read of your concern if she got really foul and started claiming being in danger. That's crazy to deal with and feels in and of itself controlling. Just sounds like she has that one up and to combat it, you would need cameras everywhere you go. Very tough sitch, and I definitely wouldn't want to test that. FWIW, my WW, I think, has told one of her sisters her "version" of why she wants the D and that because I got to tearing stuff up she was fearful for her life, yet she, the WW, is cool with us in an IHS. Crazy...

^^^ see my comment above ^^^

When I look back, I am grateful I am here as crazy as it sounds. WW and I had a lot of problems in the past and we haven't been able to talk about them yet but finally now after BD, at ground zero, this is the beginning. I would not turn back time to live the way I had been, feeling so miserable WITH her in the MR, and not knowing of A. I know it sounds weird and crazy and it doesn't stop the hurting, I get that, but you aren't alone and this definitely is not the end. D is not the end, the day after that is not, it doesn't even end when you say it, feel it, or think it.

I second both statements in the above. D is not the end and I too would not go back to my MR. Our problems started to surface 6 months before BD and I kept quiet about them in favour of keeping the peace. He only resented me more (unemotional, cold). We (H and I) have a long road ahead of us if we R'd.

I'm a little jelly(maybe envious?) that you have a night out with some people. I've yet to get that going. I hope it helps you detach and DB.

Adam - you will get there. And yes, it does help you detach and Db. At first it will feel forced, like you are out in body but not in spirit. Your W will still invade your thoughts. And then day, after GAL'g, you will go to bed and realise you have not thought of her for hours. That is when you will know it is working.

How much have I taken her for granted that when we did argue in a salvageable, working relationship, I made no effort to put thought into it, but when I'm hurt, the victim, I can't seem to shake her from my thoughts ... We need to free ourselves and them.

It is good that you can see this. I was the same. We would argue in the car in the morning (he would argue, I would sit there and take it) and when I got out of the car I would think "controlling [censored]" and then not think about it for the rest of the day. Now, when he drops me off (as he still frequently does) I dissect every element of the interaction and obsess over every word.

So, what I am saying is that this is normal and the fact that you can recognize that you took her for granted means that you are moving towards acceptance - acceptance of your share of the responsibility for the things that were wrong in the marriage. Like I said to B - knowledge of what you did wrong does not justify her actions, but it takes you a step closer to understanding them.

And when I was placing puzzle pieces with my son, who later left me to do the whole thing by myself, I was calm and at piece. I didn't think of her. I looked at this huge jigsaw taking my time finding where every piece went, slowly, one at a time. Maybe it's the introvert in me and I do better alone. I don't know.. just sharing, so hope you don't mind.

I find these are the best GAL'g activities. We now have a ritual in the evening. When dinner and homework and bedtime baths are done, we watch TV in the big room with the fire on and the lights down. I snuggle under a blanket with D9 and D12 sits on the other sofa. Sometimes I think to myself, why didn't we do this when H was here ... back to the things you take for granted ...

[Cadet]

If you seek legal advice the top mistake that men make is moving out.

So that is another important reason besides that moving out is a nice guy trait.

[FlySolo]

Cadet - why is that?

Both my H and I were told that when we went (separately) for legal advice. Mine said it as I was walking out “Oh, and whatever you do, stay in the marital home”. I didn’t have the sense at the time to ask (I think I was crying uncontrollably). My H told me in one of our pre MO arguments “I’m not going anywhere, my lawyer told me not to MO”.

[Vapo]

Because the other spuse could claim abandonment.

[Cadet]

Because the other spuse could claim abandonment.

And if there are children involved it can hurt you in custody

[FlySolo]

Thanks both. That’s what I thought it was.

I am sure H is aware of those implications and just hoping that my NG tendencies means I won’t argue either abondonment or fight him on custody. He is correct on the former, but he seriously underestimates me if he thinks I wont use everything in my arsenal when it comes to custody of my kids. Rant over.

B - apologies again for hijacking your thread.

[burned]

Wow, a lot going on here. I'll see what I can add.

I've been reading up on your sitch, and am I right in that you were wanting to move back in? Do you still want to move back in (with her?) or to reclaim the house and have her leave (whether its on her own accord or some type of forcing out)? You said you have a 2 year lease? SO currently paying for the mortgage and rent?

I put this one on ice until I can talk to L next week. Basically, it's something I would do FOR ME. I could break the lease, I figure absolute worst-case scenario I'd be out 5 grand. Small price to pay to keep my beloved W but then again I'm pretty loose with money (probably part of why I'm in this sitch). I would do it FOR ME because I like it there, despite the fact that she has already made the house look like I was never there. It would be a process and I'm told it's a bad idea, so I'm still contemplating it. It would give me some confidence. It would send an overwhelmingly powerful message to her that I should have sent months ago, but as we know, doing things to influence her shouldn't be the primary motivation. Etc.[/quote]

Can you enlighten me on why it's important to not move out or that we should be the ones staying and they move out? What are the implications?

The posts below answered that, I think. And after reading them I looked for the laws in my state and yes, if accused and convicted of desertion I could go to jail (prison?) for 2 years, or pay a fine which is much more likely. We don't have kids so I haven't worried about custody implications but apparently that's a thing too. At this point it's another reason why I personally might go BACK to the house, because I'm starting to cut her off financially and I am the primary income earner and I suppose she could claim desertion. NGS makes me think, "Crap, I did a bad thing and she's mad and I'm going to be in big big trouble." Then I sit down and think, wait a minute, she cheated, she kept the house, I kept paying the mortgage and utilities and let her use the CC and she has her own (small) income and a big pile of cash she set aside. For 5 months already. Go ahead and TRY to convince a judge that that's desertion.
At any rate, there's a lot to think about. Another thing I just came up with while I was getting more coffee: the house is a huge, illiquid albatross, yet she's willing to keep it in the D. I'd have to buy her out with "cash" (retirement, investments, etc.) and I'd basically have nothing left to work with. And I'd have to do all the crap work of fixing it up and selling it.

FWIW, my WW, I think, has told one of her sisters her "version" of why she wants the D and that because I got to tearing stuff up she was fearful for her life, yet she, the WW, is cool with us in an IHS. Crazy...

Yeah, crazy. I tore up photos, smashed things, punched a hole in the wall. She came back "for good" a few days later, I had cleaned the house and patched the holes and all that. We were good for 2 months. Guess when she decided that my behaviors weren't to her liking? After she wanted to go back to OM and needed a reason.

When I look back, I am grateful I am here as crazy as it sounds. WW and I had a lot of problems in the past and we haven't been able to talk about them yet but finally now after BD, at ground zero, this is the beginning. I would not turn back time to live the way I had been, feeling so miserable WITH her in the MR, and not knowing of A. I know it sounds weird and crazy and it doesn't stop the hurting, I get that, but you aren't alone and this definitely is not the end. D is not the end, the day after that is not, it doesn't even end when you say it, feel it, or think it.

I wish I had your optimism about R after D. We'll see. As for the other stuff, that's exactly what keeps me going. If she would give me this last chance, and we both now know what the problems are, and we both actually talk about them (this is something that happened the day after BD and possibly contributed to our "false reconciliation" that lasted until end of May)...then it could be really, really good. First I have to earn that chance. Then she has to earn her chance from me. It's so very, very unlikely.

How much have I taken her for granted that when we did argue in a salvageable, working relationship, I made no effort to put thought into it, but when I'm hurt, the victim, I can't seem to shake her from my thoughts.

I've had those moments. They're awful. But that was before there was an A. This isn't a sitch in which you just need a little tweaking. There's a massive, possibly irreparable rift. Again, you're more optimistic. Good, hold onto that as long as you can. But don't let it get in the way of seeing the reality of the terrible thing she did. That's partly how you'll get your b@lls back.

[Adam04]

Happy Thanksgiving!

Thanks Vapo, Cadet, FlySolo, and Burned for dropping the knowledge. I haven't thought about abandonment. I thought the judge would maybe say something about the apartment not accommodating 2 kids if I moved out or judge may try to address the reason for the separation or D, but I haven't dug into the reality and truth of what really happens.. I need to, I need to get with some lawyers and get the facts.

I get it now that the home is part of the M and part of the stance, she chose to bring that into the home, she can take it out and go with it as well.

FlySolo, I'll need to read up on your sitch. I wonder how you transitioned to finally have that talk with him to MO. MY WW has denied denied denied anything has been going on with AP. I'll try to see tonight if I can post.

Burned, I hope my optimism never goes away even during the darkest of times. Truthfully I haven't taken stock in how I was coming across because I do still feel the pain inside, been trying to vaporize it is probably how I can best describe how I want to deal with it. I was hoping to be somewhat cheerful and supportive, even happy, but I'll take optimistic. I have said before, expect the worst, but hope for the best.

Religion can be a very touchy subject to some, and by no means am I a practicing, devout Christian. However, I do try to draw inner strength based on faith. It's not just blind faith, but also a choice with some influence based on my past. Maybe it'll rub off, who knows really. I can tell you this much, I do not want front row seats sitting next to WW on her rollercoaster ride.

If I had a choice to feel something or dwell in a space, I ask myself what would that be like or feel like. I choose happy and I don't mean unicorns, cotton candy, rainbows and all that. No living in lala land thinking this would magically go away and the old or new her would be waiting for me. I have a bad poker face, really bad. I can't fake pretend to be happy when something is eating me inside so I'd usually have this quirky smirk, this half sided smile with a bit of disdain thrown in for flavor. I want to actually be happy and not fake pretend. So I'm choosing to be happy, control me and my emotions and hey maybe it's working if you can see it, people at work can see it, maybe the W can see it. She's been around checking but I'm not doing it for her. It feels good to not do stuff for her.

With our IHS, I've left dishes in the sink, she can clean them. I've come home late and she's fed and bathed the boys. I'm dong more, but not everything. I leave stuff to see what she does. She does her share of the chores and doesn't complain. Sometimes I think because we haven't complained that something needs to be forced... but then why should I care. just a fleeting thought.

As for NGS blinding me from not being able to see how terrible the sitch is? I know what you mean, sometimes it can be irreparable if both parties are not ready. I am a firm believer if both parties can put in the required work, its repairable... but, I'm not even ready... I don't want the old guy(this shell I am living in) to be with anyone. Wouldn't be fair and I would be setting myself up and hurting two people again. I've seen some people bounce back from this quickly. Split, D, Rebound and no problem. Are these strong people for doing that? I don't know. I've seen men and women with 4-5 kids on dad #3 or wife#4 go through life replacing other people. So going back, while I'm working on me, I have my guard up. I'm never going to let anyone as deceiving like that be able to make me feel the pain I've felt within the last 3 months. I've walled myself up before and I can do it again. I won't allow her to invade my circle, not this version of her. Not this confused, hurtful person. I'm not going to rationalize with an irrational person trying to see if she can determine how much hurt she has caused me. Trying to get her to notice me.

She does have to atone for what she did/is doing, no doubt about it. It'll happen whether I have a direct play in it or not, she'll have to face her demons. I shouldn't care if I have front row tickets to that show.

I've been so angry that I wanted to spite her and have her deal with taking care of the kids alone because of the hurt she caused me. I wanted to move out and show her how everyone was going to struggle because of her. I woke up from that. Ashamed from it really. Do I think she would even care? No... hard reality check so guess what? This optimism? It's trying to be this care-free I don't give a you know what. I've cried less and less for what its worth. The last time was about 2 weeks ago I had one sob into the pillow where I said to myself "I'm lonely" and then that was it, there was no one to pick me up, to talk to me, to make it feel better. It was up to me. So yeah I'll have my days where I'm not centered, but when I do get centered, it's not off on some wild end of the spectrum if you know what I mean.

I'm rooting for you to take back what's yours. ALL OF IT. NOT just the house.

[burned]

I'm rooting for you to take back what's yours. ALL OF IT. NOT just the house.

I don’t know why, but this made me smile. I’m curious what you meant, though.

[burned]

Good morning all,

Overnight temperature was below zero Fahrenheit where I live. Plus the full moon. Seasonal songs blasting from every speaker in every store. Winter has begun.

I kept myself occupied yesterday posting all over the place so it's not like I need to bump my thread to get attention. :P

Posting all over the place helped, though, because I felt like I was giving myself advice. And I noticed that I can be a lot "harsher" or more direct with other people than I can be with myself.

W texted on Wednesday to wish me a nice holiday. I did not respond. It makes me extremely nervous, but whatever. For a while I felt good about myself, that I was treating myself like a high-value person who doesn't accept crumbs from a person who is clearly working as hard as she can to remove me from her life. I thought I'd have much more trouble coping with the idea that she is at her parents' enjoying my favorite holiday without me. But I focused on my own strength in resisting that and resisting her. So it helped.

I had dinner with the two families who were our closest friends (I got to keep them in the S). It was obvious who was missing, but they didn't make a thing of it. We had a good time. I was a bit melancholy at times; it came and went but mostly went. I wonder if W felt the same empty space next to her as I did. I don't know that that would make any difference, but who knows.

Reading about other people who are so certain that D is imminent, as am I. Well, it ain't over till it's over. Even after D process begins. I still lull myself to sleep thinking that there's movement behind the scenes. Maybe it's spending time with her family. Maybe it's a gradual realization that the D won't be as easy as she anticipates. Maybe it's my ability to deprive her entirely of any satisfaction she gets from sending me pointless happy holidays text messages. There's still the idea that I could move back into the house with my b@lls swinging proudly in front of me. I dunno. I tell myself that there's still some kind of hope. Maybe that sets me back by keeping the fantasy alive? No idea.

Thank you to the people who have kept me accountable for my actions in terms of not responding to her. I also really appreciate the things people have said about D is not the end and it's never guaranteed and lots of people come around later, and she doubts herself, and she will realize what she's losing when she's awake alone at night and I've been consistently not giving in to her. I so badly wish that any of that were true. I'm an optimist by nature but a pessimist by upbringing, so I fight with that dichotomy from moment to moment.

Reading a really inspiring book called 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson. It's not at all a self-help book. It's a super nerdy psychology book that is all about living a Good life based on good values, strong actions, and the big R word that I'm told is my #1 problem in life: Responsibility. I've been given an opportunity to grow up, to become conscious, to live a responsible adult life. Stuff like that.

But I so very badly want to hold her in my arms. Not because of the old M we had, which was just quite terrible for both of us (especially for her). But because she is a Person who can be redeemed and who I love so very much. A new M with her would be pretty neat, assuming she adapts to it. At this point I feel like I'm setting the groundwork of becoming a much better person. But I definitely need more time to solidify things.

I guess what I'm getting better at is setting the thoughts/feelings aside and focusing on actions that don't make any sense to me at all but seem to be recommended by everyone. I'd be a jack@ss to ignore that kind of consistently universal advice.