Ovr, your WW is full of turmoil. She has no clue what she wants. Do you really think talking to the priest will help in anyway? Would it be her way of justifying how she tried and it still did not help? Or do you think she is looking for direction and she is actually in a frame of mind where it may help? I am sure she isnt planning to bring up OM during this discussion with the priest, what are you planning to learn/gain from talking to the priest?
That was a lot. I read every thread and post. You have some great posters and advice. It was hard to read tho, especially over a couple of days span, because the roller-coaster kept jerking back and forth, upwards, and sideways. Ouch. At one point I started grinding my teeth, I gasped, and I might have even yelled out at you. "No! What are you doing, man!?!" You do remind me of my H tho. You seem very kind, humble and generous. You guys could be co-chairs of the Mr Nice Guy club. Fortunately for me, he has worked his way out of being a total doormat, and so I have learned to respect him ... This is hard work, Ovr. It takes a long time of self reflection and committing to changes. It is much harder to do when you allow someone to jerk you around and abuse you. I think it may be impossible.
I have a hundred observations and opinions about your W. She undoubtedly has a lot of work to do on herself too, growing up to do (she has the mentality of a teenager), and she is an abusive person. I hope for her own sake at some point in her life she is willing to look at herself and start tackling some deeply flawed issues. I sort of pity her, because people like that ultimately miss out on genuine and mature love. She is not capable of that right now. I just don't think it will help you or your sitch, for me to dissect her behaviors, or focus on her, so I will hold off on that further. Plus, I am far more interested in you and your goals.
I have some questions for you. I hope you will give them some thought and answer them thoroughly for us. I think it could help all of us understand you and advise you better. Mostly, I think it will benefit you to think hard about them and address them. I am trying to narrow it down, but I do have a lot of questions!
1. How do you envision a healthy marriage and relationship in your life? What does that look like to you? 2. What do you think you have to give to a married partner and what do you think you deserve from a partner? 3. How do you feel about the way your W treats you? How do you think you deserve to be treated by her? 4. How do you think you have taught your W to treat you? How do you think you can change that now? 5. Do you think you are worthy of love and respect? (please don't answer this here, just think about it)
I look forward to reading, Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Hello everyone, thanks for keeping up with my thread. I like to take breaks from posting on my own, and sometimes on the weekends, just to remain sane and go be happy. Here's info and responses to everyone:
Nicole, Sia: My W is not Catholic, not a strong Christian by any means. She does trust the priest who married us, ironically, because he wasn't afraid to tell me I was wrong/misbehaving during our engagement. But she doesn't take communion anyways and we don't go to Mass often. Our meeting with the priest was interesting. His biggest, and most valid point, was how ingrained we are in our fight pattern between us. I am an argumentative person, either by nature or by nurture (my Dad), so I am trying to stay aware of this. I think going to the priest was a positive, because W respects him and likes him.
W's words were clear and direct when dealing with my issues, but indirect and soft when discussing hers. I brought this up, the priest and W talk about this. W says "OK, it's an affair by 'definition' ". Priest says, "and in reality, too". FYI W, SIL, FIL, MIL, and a couple of W's friends say it's not. W didn't like this, and I'm done pressing her to quit running from this reality. She knows, she'll accept it in her own time, or maybe not. It's out of my hands. And for a laugh, my W said before, during, and after this process that she "doesn't believe in divorce".
With the in-laws, I don't plan on discussing my marriage with them anymore. They choose to ignore both of their daughters' misbehaviors, and I am not the person to bring it to their attention. They are going to flip flop and rewrite history so that they can continue believing their girls are angels.
Blu, thanks for reading. I am trying to work on myself every day and fight old, "comfortable" tendencies. I do think W's being abusive is a response to a lot of the things I put her through (emotional, mental abuse, not accepting, respecting, and appreciating her). That's why my situation is so messy IMO. Hopefully, in time, she will take that hard look at herself. I really am not sure what a healthy MR looks like at this point. I could name off the "normal" things. I think what I have to give a partner is a funny question. My initial thoughts go to superficial things: money, cooking, wine, entertainment, looks. My weaknesses, and the casus belli for this whole sitch, is that I stopped being there for her emotionally, as a lover, partner, and friend. I think I focused on the superficial out of fear. I definitely don't like W treating me poorly, although it has improved since the end of August. She doesn't like when she's treating me badly, and doesn't like seeing herself in that light. I have definitely trained her for conflict and abuse, and I change that now by being honest, being fair, dropping the covert contracts and learning how to communicate.
Things in general are OK. W and I are getting along pretty well, working together on a few things, talking often. We went to a wedding Friday, and W spent the whole week stressing because my best friend was going to be there and she thinks he was "talking stuff" about her during the affair. He didn't overdo it IMO, he was only truthful. He also hooked up with OM's sister a year or two back. But she's a barfly and he's sugar to those type of flies. In laws came over for dinner one night during the week.
I was reading in Steve's thread about the intimate kissing and the emotional impact/meaning for women and found that quite interesting. W and I had been giving picks at night and goodbye pecks in the mornings. On Saturday morning, W busted out the Binaca and initiated a makeout session. I thought initially she just wanted sex, but she actually just wanted to make out. And we had a couple more makeout sessions throughout the day. The little affections have increased, and now I'm paying attention. I'm trying to give W those type of affections without the expectation of sex, and to just make her happy. I got W a St. Nick's present (a cheap one)/ So that's where we're at. Saturday and Sunday we went out to eat and walking, shopping in a cool part of town, watched Christmas movies, made pizza, hung out, cuddled up.
Next hurdle: my Mom's bday this week and Christmas.
Thanks for the support, and sorry for another book!
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
It sounds like your updates are sort of as one would expect. The fact that you and your wife are attending so many activities together and getting physically close seems very positive. The more you two deepen your connection the less she'll need OM one would assume. I do have a question though. Is it difficult to kiss your wife or go out with her to events knowing she cheated and may not be 100% done with OM? Or you believe she's definitely done with him? This is where I struggled the most when my husband returned the first time. I didn't want to make a fool out of myself knowing he might have some other woman on his mind.
Either I am missing something or this is a huge mess. I am reading that "things in general are OK," that you attended a wedding together and that there are make-out sessions happening. That part I am sure of.
Where is the part where she ended her affair, provided proof of that, is offering transparency, is remorseful for her part in the breakdown of the M, AND where she is saying that she is recommitted to making this work??? Did I miss this somewhere along the way or did none of this actually happen???
Have you read anything that Sandi posts about WWs and their lack of respect for their H? Have you read anything about how to have boundaries and demand respect from other people??? Do you have any respect for yourself? (I am honestly asking)
Seriously, what is going on here?
Because you know what it looks like from this side of the screen? It looks like you have no self worth, no respect from your WW, and you are taking any crumb she throws. You are also teaching her how to treat you (which is to walk all over you). You are also allowing her to blame you for the problems in the M when she is the one HAVING AN AFFAIR!
Look, everyone here has messed up. None of us are perfect and we all contributed to our M problems. ALL OF US HAVE. But allowing her to walk all over you, throw crumbs when she feels like it, and then participating in counseling (where you take responsibility) does you no good, while she is HAVING AN AFFAIR. That is written all over this board and in every thread on here.
Wow. I got myself worked up just writing that. I am not even sure what else to say except, I know that you know this because I have seen you give very good advice to other people. You just refuse to see it in your own sitch. The one that matters most.
I think you need so start over before it's too late. Read all the advice about WW and the rules and actually start applying them if you want to save your M at all.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Did I miss this somewhere along the way or did none of this actually happen???
She is in denial that it was an affair.. Her parents support her and have always been her moral compass. I've discussed how it is an affair with W and in-laws. They don't want to believe, so they don't. I'm not wasting my breath trying to change their minds. W knows, and I'm not going to pressure her to admit it.
My stated boundaries were: MC, relationship building, respect, openness and honesty, no other people in our lives.
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Seriously, what is going on here?
It's a mess. But what do I do? Force an R talk and demand her commitment? When she came back in October I said we can't have other people in our lives, she agreed.
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But allowing her to walk all over you
Do you mean she just isn't treating me well?
I think the affair is over. What do I do? Tell her I don't believe it's over? I know she went to OM's at the end of Nov but I am not sure what to do about it. So here I am...
I could wait until we meet the priest again to bring things up so we have someone to help facilitate the conversation.
I need to make a plan of action, but I'm not sure what to do other than get back into MC/priest MC meetings on the regular. Probably stop letting her talk to me like crap which isn't often but she is throwing little fits over small things.
I'm off to reread Sandi's thoughts.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I don't know if I'm going to hear her say she has that true remorse. She still blames me for everything she did.
By continuing on too easily, without requiring full commitment to the marriage, I showed her htat I don't have much respect for myself. I think she is in a "let's see how it goes" mode.
I went back and read Sandi's post about WW's, I think it's the one you were referring to. I so desperately want to believe everything is fine go back to the days where I can let my guard down. That's not happening.
How do I reset the boundaries and respect? How do I demand that "commitment" and get her to be remorseful now that I blew it and let her come back too easy? I do need everyone's help here. Thanks guys and gals.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Hi Ovr, things cannot go back to how they were for certain but MR 2.0 should mean it’s better for both of you. Do you think this is your R? I may be wrong but it feels like there is a lot of sweeping under the rug here. She is far from owning her issues, you are trying to put band aids, my fear is even if you let bygones now how do you know you will not be here a few years down the road again if the big issues are left unresolved? In my opinion R needs true remorse, I have seen where people have said once the WAS snaps out of the fog they won’t even remember how badly they behaved or how they hurt their spouse. For me that is not good enough, after walking through the inferno I need empathy, compassion and true remorse to start R. It may not happen at all but without these wouldn’t the R be shallow? Wouldn’t the LBS spend their life looking over their shoulder? If and when the WAS shows genuine remorse and accepts their mistake without continuing to blame the LBS, that is when the LBS needs to build empathy and forgive to move forward. Your W has no regrets, remorse or the slightest ownership of her mistakes. You cannot continue to carry the burden on both your behalf I may be wrong in this so please let the other vets chime in. I think you need to call her out on her BS, not confrontational, just matter of fact and let her know you won’t settle for this behavior. It may be pan to the fire but what you have going is not sustainable in the long run. Would you want to have a family with this woman and spend the rest of your life doubting yourself? As I said, my suggestion may be completely off, my own MR train is almost at the D station, just chew on this and wait for others. You have superb advice for the newbies so I know that you get these concepts, hugs
As you might recall I let my husband come back easily the first time so I can relate to your concerns. The thing is, you received a lot of advice saying you shouldn't take your wife back easily but we should still respect your decision. It's an extremely difficult position to be in when you lose your spouse and then you have a chance to have that person back again. The crisis blurs our judgment. You did what you think is best for your situation. You sound like you've accepted quite a bit of the blame for the downfall of the marriage, not that it excuses an affair, but you do seem to have made a lot of realizations about yourself and you've grown from this experience. Perhaps everything will be fine now that your wife is back. Maybe you'll treat your wife better (although I'm sure you weren't that bad) and your wife will also mature and realize how badly she acted and she'll try to be a better committed wife. Maybe you two can put this ordeal behind you after a while, although you may be checking for signs of an affair for many years to come. In the event that this happens again then you'll be more compelled to take stronger action.
In terms of getting your wife to show remorse now - it seems you could put your foot down on all big decisions like making a big joint purchase like buying a house or having kids. You could be less forthcoming with affection, "I love you's," gifts, etc.. for the time being. But you also need to move on and create a new beautiful marriage for the two of you to be happy and want to stay together. I'm not entirely sure you should execute such a strategy but I hope you'll get good direction from various sources.
I can tell you what not do since I made the mistake myself. After my husband came back he kept promising we'd fix everything but then he didn't want to discuss his affair or go to counseling. I started to treat him really badly. I said a lot of terrible things to him. I made him suffer. We still moved on and moved to our dream city, built our dream house, and planned for our future but with this negative undercurrent that caused constant tension. It was clear that the marriage wasn't fixed even though we were back together. I shouldn't have agreed to start building a house and I shouldn't have quit my job to start a business without everything being fixed. I kept thinking everything would get fixed eventually but it never happened and he left again. You don't want to end up like me! It's best to hold off on big next steps until your wife can show true remorse and re-earn your trust.
The biggest warning I'd like to share is how much harder it is to go through this with kids. If you can just imagine how innocent children are, and how they're at the mercy of their parents, and how a broken marriage can hurt a small child, then you'll want to think really seriously about having kids any time soon. I believe your wife is young so you could safely wait for many years to see if the marriage is stable before you have kids. There's never 100% guarantee something won't go wrong, but I recommend doing everything humanly possibly to avoid bringing an innocent baby into this world if the marriage isn't fully repaired.
I hope everything will turn out well for you and your wife. This is still a fragile situation but it sounds like you're actively thinking about how to best proceed and hopefully it'll work out!
