Finding the Balance and then Tipping the Scale

[Adam04]

[quote]I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)

Seriously?

It was easy to feel that one word hitting like 2 2x4s

[Adam04]

I've been anxious with boundaries. I've been wanting to set them just to set them because the way my mind works is that I have to have some type of action, thinking action would equal progress.

I don't think you get it, but maybe I don't understand what you mean. Do you understand the purpose of boundaries? Could you expound a little more on this, please?

Because W and I don't really talk, there are no boundaries set. I don't feel like there's anything pressing I have to get off my chest right now that "fits" our current situation other than the A. Because I don't feel there are any boundaries being laid down, I feel like there is no progress. burned also commented and talked about what I was getting at. Sometimes we want to do something to "fix" things so we try to figure out what it is we need to do, what action to take. He's been spinning. We think of what boundaries to set when sometimes there just aren't any for the time being. One boundary is controlling the space. Although it is not verbally communicated, I'm not allowing her into my space because I reserve that for someone who wants to be in the MR, because she isn't, I'm removing -myself- away from her when I can without affecting the children. When children are involved, like dinnertime, I'm cordial.

I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)

That entire paragraph reeks of expectations and trying to think about how your actions will influence her feelings. NGS! You're new at this so don't feel bad, I'm just pointing it out so you start to get a sense of how insidious it can be. BTW, I'm not saying I'm any better at it than you are...

Watch out for "the illusion of action." You've read through my posts, you've seen me spinning for months trying to calculate exactly what to do to "fix this." Hasn't gotten me anywhere. So don't forget the one of the official DB principles from the DR book is that sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something, because "something" wasn't working, and "nothing" is something different.

Hey burn, I don't feel bad. I knew how it sounded coming out, and I take full responsibility for that. I was trying to comment with several ideas meshed into that one paragraph. I hear ya on the illusion of action. I need to stop trying to be a busybody thinking I gotta do something.

[sandi2]

Thank you, Yail.

[sandi2]

Because W and I don't really talk, there are no boundaries set. I don't feel like there's anything pressing I have to get off my chest right now that "fits" our current situation other than the A. Because I don't feel there are any boundaries being laid down, I feel like there is no progress. burned also commented and talked about what I was getting at. Sometimes we want to do something to "fix" things so we try to figure out what it is we need to do, what action to take. He's been spinning. We think of what boundaries to set when sometimes there just aren't any for the time being.

Then I'll have to say that I don't think either of you fully understand the purpose or the operation of boundaries. Imagine that you drew a circle around yourself. That circle represents a protective shield. You decide what can go inside that circle and what doesn't. B/c what goes crosses that line/circle....hurts you. It tears down your dignity and self esteem. It forces you to compromise. It takes away your manhood. It's your responsibility to protect your feelings. Someone else may not respect you, and could care less if you don't like what they say or do. Now, I want you to understand that they have a choice. If they have no free choice, then this is no boundary. You cannot force someone else to protect your feelings, right? You cannot make them do something they don't want to do. If any action is taken......the action is yours, not theirs. What I mean is ...….if someone does something that reflects their disrespect toward you, it's up to you as to how to respond to their disrespect to you. You can always walk away. That's a action. You can always hang up the phone when someone is speaking disrespectfully. That's an action. If someone is physically attacking you, you may need to fight back or get the police. Your priority is your own protection. Not in a cowardly sense, but in a way that shows you are standing up for yourself and you aren't going to simply lie down and let someone else wipe their poop on you. Make sense?

I'll use this for an example, but I'll warn you that many men have jumped into deep water b/c they thought stating this particular boundary would control their adulterous W. They were terribly mistaken. Then when things didn't go like they thought it would, they would try to wiggle out of it. Can't do it. You have to stick to your word, if you put it out there.

Boundary: "I will not stay in an open marriage."

She still has a choice. I want you to get this. She can choose to stay in the affair, or she can honor her H's boundary...….but the choice is hers. The H is simply stating what he will do (or in this case, not do)...…..which is stay in an open M. If she's having a PA, she has put the M at risk......physically, emotionally, financially, morally, etc. She has opened the physical intimacy of the M to include someone else. Therefore, her H is protecting himself by getting out of that type of situation where he is compromising his beliefs, moral standards, STD risks, etc.

If she chooses to remain in the affair, then what does the H do? Does he repeat the boundary? No! Does he give her warnings? No! Does he try one more time to have a R talk? No! He does what he said. He stops staying in an open marriage. What does that mean? Well, he either separates or prepares for a divorce. (In-house separation is no good, b/c he's still staying with her.....giving her benefits of M.) Anyway, the action is up to him. If she suffers consequences (like the loss of living with her H), she may decide to honor his boundary, or she may not. She has a free choice.

Do you see how the H is protecting himself from further disrespect? Do you see how he is not forcing her, and that she may decide she doesn't care if they get a D, and she may continue her A? It's not about the H controlling her. it's about him protecting himself.

One boundary is controlling the space. Although it is not verbally communicated, I'm not allowing her into my space because I reserve that for someone who wants to be in the MR, because she isn't, I'm removing -myself- away from her when I can without affecting the children. When children are involved, like dinnertime, I'm cordial.

Not sure about the part in bold. That sounds more punitive than self protection. Maybe it's just the way I'm interpreting it.

You can only control YOU. If you don't want to announce your boundary, that's okay. My question would be, is it effective? If so, then fine. If she invades your space, or doesn't catch on to what you are doing.....or why, then what? Walk further away...….walk around in circles....? I mean, you have to determine if it's effective or not. I'm not saying it is a poor boundary, I'm just trying to get you to understand a little better.

I'm not the best at explaining things, but you'll get there. A lot of people confuse boundaries with ultimatums. They are not the same.

[burned]

Adam, I'm glad Sandi jumped in because I wanted to say the same thing. She said it better, though. Which is good because I'm terrible at boundaries, and that's partly what got me here.

Time for you to order the Cloud & Townsend "Boundaries" book from Amazon with overnight shipping.

[Adam04]

Thank you. Currently at work so will be limited on response replying by phone. I want to set the boundary about A. I'm not afraid of D. I want to be informed and I thought the idea was to give her space while it benefited us both. I do not want to have an open marriage. I would like to know what steps I can take leading up to that conversation to prepare myself. I need to be clear with her that if she can't honor the boundary that I want her to leave. Should I put it plainly like that? I think this is really the thing I've been wanting to do for myself so help me get to the deep side of the water so I can start swimming on my own. I don't think I need the book to pull the trigger on this but I will get it soon. Still need to talk to an attorney. She may stick to her guns and say she is not leaving the home or kids. Need to prepare for that, only other option is for me to leave right? Or stay and then do what?


Looking for input in this. I want to initiate it soon but not go blindly into it especially off emotion. It's what I've been wanting to do because for me it's the right thing to do. Sandi, you're right about IHS is not really separation to me. It's cake eating with no consequences for her.

[RyanHun]

Adam,
The only thing you can control is yourself so your boundary needs to be all about you as well as the actions if the boundary is not met. If she doesn't honor your boundary you cannot force her to leave and again it is all about you, it should be, "I will not remain in an open marriage and if that is not honored then I will leave in order to protect myself". Are you really prepared to do that if she continues the A at this point?

[Adam04]

Yes, I was biding time financially. I am planning to speak to an attorney soon within the next week. I want to get all my ducks in a row and expect moving out. If that does happen, I'd be scraping by but I'd have my self-respect. Financially it might not be a smart move because the last issue with my car costed about 3k and if something happens with it again, I'll be in a bad situation. I thought it might be financially sound to wait a couple more months for a little cushion. That's the only thing holding me back and I see now that the boundary I've been wanting to set is on the A. I thought I've been dealing with my emotions well in not putting any focus on her but it's became a thing that is also preventing me from standing up for myself. I think for me, it starts here as hard as it could be for some.

[burned]

Are you really prepared to do that if she continues the A at this point?

Think really hard about that.

Adam, you keep using the word boundary, but you're talking about an ultimatum. To paraphrase that old saying, you only point a gun at something you're willing to kill.

The way you describe it, you're ready to go to her and say, "You have two choices: stay in this marriage, or GTFO." Which do you think she'll pick? How will you feel after she picks it? How will you feel a week later?

Go back to DR. Re-read the section on LRT. Then take a closer look at "after LRT" starting on p. 218. Both of those are better options than an ultimatum, and yet you don't need either of them.

Yet.

[Adam04]

I don't want to give her an ultimatum, I don't want to control. I think there's a better way to express it, and I have to think of the best way to convey the message. I've been wondering what that looks like. We don't talk about MR or anything. Just feels like in limbo, two room mates sharing time with the kids.

I have been doing everything on page 127 under LRT. Contact is minimal and I've stopped going out with her to eat out or to her family's house to eat.

is it not a good idea to initiate the dialogue at this point in time? What am I needing to wait on?

Originally Posted by Sandi2

So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.

It may be early and maybe I am impatient or maybe I am confused at the direction of this. Help me put all the pieces together, I thought IHS rarely works and LBS dealing with WW need to do more than being nice, giving space and showing we've changed, things that can be shown during R, but for right now we need to be tough. Isn't making the stand what we want to do for several reasons? Isn't separation with her moving out the end goal since it has higher chance for R?


I know I could word it better than making it sound like an ultimatum but what am I missing, the true purpose of it?? Because right now it only comes across as an ultimatum?

I want to do what is necessary. Why is this hard to grasp for me, it's sounding confusing now. I'll order that book.

I think that because I've been a nice guy for so long that my self-respect gauge has been compromised and I feel like I need to work on that, fix it, get it back, earn it, and show her I won't put up with her disrespect to me. The thing is I will allow for change, I am hoping for change but if it doesn't happen, I'm not expecting it but it would be nice, I have to find out how much I can deal with before throwing in the towel. How can I be the rock and have my b@lls and self-respect? Shouldn't I not be fearful of losing her or D? She's with someone else alrdy, it is a loss. Ok stopping here, thinking too much into it.

I can do the last last resort and cut her off any interaction but isn't that going dark and better if alrdy separated?
I feel like if I push this, she will not honor the boundary, why would she? If she doesn't honor it, then we physically separate and work on it from there. I am ready but I am listening as well.