Steve—You are absolutely correct that at the end of the day, I’m not responsible for her happiness. I do believe that she is projecting a lot on to me, and I don’t deserve that from her. Next time she tells me how unhappy she is, I should just tell her ‘if you’re so unhappy or angry, why aren’t you in front of that therapist every week or two weeks to work this out?’
No, don't say that. Your interactions with her have to be very consistent.
You DO not start conversations with her. When you are both home, do not follow her around. But be present, upbeat, happy, confident in her presence. You do not initiate conversations. When she does you listen, actively, and VALIDATE!! Go read the validation thread. Do not reason, use logic, try to change her mind, beg, cry, be sad, etc. Upbeat. Pleased. Present. Validate when she engages.
Avoid discussing the R at ALL costs. If she does bring up the R you: listen, actively, and VALIDATE!!
Originally Posted by Bo562
I’ve also been trying to work on anything ‘bad behaviors,’ or anything she claims I need to fix. But I also read on these forums that for a WW, it won’t really matter what you do, and that was apparent to me about a month ago—still not good enough in her eyes, allegedly. So I’ll fix what I reasonably can.
I think you misunderstand a bit. The point with all WASs, whether WS or not, is that you do not want to become a slave. "But I didn't do laundry, or clean the kitchen, or vacuum the floors before BD. So I want to 180 on that." The point is to do your fair share, but make her do her share. One of the best is to do your own laundry (and the kids') but not hers. Let her do her own laundry. (One point, you do not want to be passive-aggressive with any of this, so try to keep the right attitude.)
180ing on bad behavior is imperative to your sitch. FOR YOU, not for her. For instance, in my sitch I used to come home from work and I would start complaining and nitpicking. Under my breath. The NGS in me would have me acting passive-aggressively about the dishes not being done. The floors being a mess. Etc. 180s I instituted was to stop the complaining, nitpicking, and passive-aggressiveness. I started having an attitude of "if I want the dishes done, I should do them!"
180ing, is NOT turning into Mr. Mom. IE, suddenly you are doing everything for her. It is about fixing your own shortcomings, not becoming a doormat.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
“Avoid discussing the R at ALL costs. If she does bring up the R you: listen, actively, and VALIDATE!!”
[So W/R/T to our upcoming anniversary, don’t say anything unless she brings it up first? Is that what I’m hearing? (I made reservations for us for dinner out this weekend, but haven’t told her—figured I’d wait for her to bring it up and then tell her I already made plans.)]
I think you misunderstand a bit. The point with all WASs, whether WS or not, is that you do not want to become a slave. "But I didn't do laundry, or clean the kitchen, or vacuum the floors before BD. So I want to 180 on that." The point is to do your fair share, but make her do her share. One of the best is to do your own laundry (and the kids') but not hers. Let her do her own laundry. (One point, you do not want to be passive-aggressive with any of this, so try to keep the right attitude.)
180ing on bad behavior is imperative to your sitch. FOR YOU, not for her. For instance, in my sitch I used to come home from work and I would start complaining and nitpicking. Under my breath. The NGS in me would have me acting passive-aggressively about the dishes not being done. The floors being a mess. Etc. 180s I instituted was to stop the complaining, nitpicking, and passive-aggressiveness. I started having an attitude of "if I want the dishes done, I should do them!"
180ing, is NOT turning into Mr. Mom. IE, suddenly you are doing everything for her. It is about fixing your own shortcomings, not becoming a doormat. [/quote]
[I’ll do my best to keep the proper attitude and not have it come off as passive-aggressive. I will admit that back in the spring, when this really came to a head, I tried to be SuperDad. I thought it worked, but apparently not.]
Hi Bo, when reading through your first post my first thought was the same as Cadet's- PPD may be a huge factor. Particular red flags are the comment that she has a desire to get away from the kids, and that she's harboring a lot of anger towards you. My W went through it in a major way after the birth of our 3rd child. She had a lot of those same feelings, didn't want to be part of a family anymore, felt dead inside (her words were "like I'm a black hole inside"), etc. She ended up on anti-depressants which did help her.
By the way, has she said WHY she is angry towards you, or is she just expressing anger in general? A lot of times PPD will make them angry and they don't know why, so the husband becomes a convenient target for their anger.
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In February (early pregnancy), she began telling me how angry she was with me, and how I needed to work on some things, but in her estimation I would start, but then backslide. She told me 'ILYBINILWY,' and expressed that she isn't sure she wanted to be married to me.
What things did she want you to work on? Did you? Have you backslid on any of them?
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We were intimate a couple of weeks ago
That's not uncommon, but unfortunately it doesn't mean anything as far as recon chances. My ex and I had pretty regular sex after BD right up until she moved out.
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but I've not been pushing it, because I'm trying to respect her space
Good, you definitely don't want to pressure her with sex or M talks or anything of the sort right now.
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I want our MR to work, and I don't want to lose the kids. I also believe a D would be ruinous financially, to say nothing of the kids.
I understand, we all felt that way! But this isn't about what YOU want, it's about what SHE wants. And if she wants D, you can't stop it. So don't try to stop it. You fight for your M by not fighting for it. By working on yourself while giving her the time and space she wants and needs. By the way, financial disaster is rarely a consideration for a WAS. They feel desperate to get out of the M and do not give much (if any) consideration to the financial devastation it might cause. Don't make that argument to her, it will fall on deaf ears. You can't use logic and reason to bring her back.
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I also believe that if she were as angry as she claims, she'd be in front of her IC much more often, as she has been out on maternity leave.
It sounds like you are banking on IC helping her want to come back to the M. It will not. IC's are mostly there to support and validate, so if your W says she thinks D is the best course of action they will agree with her. Same with MC. Most traditional counselors are "divorce facilitators".
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FWIW, she still wears both wedding rings, we got out to social functions as a family, hosted Thanksgiving and a family friend last weekend, and I haven't seen evidence of her doing anything with money or hoarding possessions that would indicate she is leaving / wants to leave.
We all look for hope wherever we can, but rest assured she is planning her escape even if it's not anytime soon. I just say this so you know what you are up against. She may change her mind much later but for now she's done and you need to accept that.
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Not sure if I have a MLCer or a WW (not necessarily OM, but for her anger, or seeming like a different woman than the one I married).
Sounds like a WAS to me. She's not wayward I don't think, at least not yet.
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Our 7-year anniversary is in early December, and we previously talked about anniversary gifts, but there hasn't been much discussion of that recently. Should I bring it up? Let her broach it? And if she does mention it, say something like 'I only want to plan an anniversary with you if it won't be our last together'?
I definitely wouldn't say that, comments like that are pressure and it's talk of a future together which breaks one of Sandi's rules. My ex and I were separated just before our anniversary. I told her "I know we're separated now but it seems strange to ignore our anniversary, rather than exchange gifts would you like to just go to dinner at XYZ?" And we did and it was fine. I had no expectations that it meant anything and it didn't, but at least it brought me some peace that I wouldn't have had if I had just pretended to ignore the anniversary.
Hi Bo, I´m Neffer. Welcome to the forum. Just jumping here to emphasize what seems to be a clear PPD. That needs to be diagnosed and taken care of ASAP. Get professional help. Have you got it? it´s really important.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Most of her anger comes from her getting pregnant. We are Catholic, and up to recently we practiced Natural Family Planning (NFP). This was what I looked for in a marriage partner, and this was something we agreed upon when getting married. This was one of the 'specifics I could get into' in the OP, but refrained from. I'm also not looking to get into a discussion on the merits of plannings births or church teachings.
Long story short, she expressed unhappiness with NFP a few times, but I wanted to stick with it and tried to get her some help and community with doing it.
Welp....she got pregnant, and thus could not retake her physical fit test for a promotion and had that career path closed off to her.
The other causes of her unhappiness / angry include 'forgetfulness' on my part about things, and a relative reluctance to talk about sex / intimacy. I know there was a 3rd, but it's not placing (hence her issue).
For the most part, I did work on those things and tried to improve from her talk in the spring--address the forgetfulness and talk more about / have more sex and intimacy. At least as much as I could. Would I backslide at times? Sure. But I thought things were trending in the right direction.
But in Oct, she mentioned that I made progress, but then would backslide, but was light on specifics.
The NFP part was resolved when she went to her OB and got an IUD. She told me she would do it. In light of the last few months, I told her that I don't think it's a good idea, but that I ultimately can't change her mind and will respect her free will.
I haven't talked about the relationship, or any talk about separation or anything Iike that since.
I'm also not saying anything about anniversary, unless she brings it up.
Most of her anger comes from her getting pregnant. We are Catholic, and up to recently we practiced Natural Family Planning (NFP). This was what I looked for in a marriage partner, and this was something we agreed upon when getting married. This was one of the 'specifics I could get into' in the OP, but refrained from. I'm also not looking to get into a discussion on the merits of plannings births or church teachings.
Long story short, she expressed unhappiness with NFP a few times, but I wanted to stick with it and tried to get her some help and community with doing it.
Welp....she got pregnant, and thus could not retake her physical fit test for a promotion and had that career path closed off to her.
Aaaah OK thank you for clarifying as now your first post makes a lot more sense. We're not judgmental here about choices you make so I don't think anyone would try to tell you your BC choices were wrong or anything. But I think it points again to her having some issues that she needs to sort through. She was as complicit in the BC method as you were, and the fact that she got pregnant is not something she should hate you for. You know how they say "the pill" is 99.9% effective? Well I'm here to tell you, that 0.1% is very real and I have a son to prove it, LOL! My W and I were older at the time and thought we were done having kids. I didn't blame my W and she didn't blame me, instead we agreed to meet the challenge head on, and now we have a wonderful, loving, gentle son who is an absolute joy even as he approaches 16. Anyway my point is her anger is misplaced, and her blame is too. Unfortunately you can't help her to see that, she's got to discover it on her own. And it may take a long, long time.
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The other causes of her unhappiness / angry include 'forgetfulness' on my part about things, and a relative reluctance to talk about sex / intimacy. I know there was a 3rd, but it's not placing (hence her issue).
For the most part, I did work on those things and tried to improve from her talk in the spring--address the forgetfulness and talk more about / have more sex and intimacy. At least as much as I could. Would I backslide at times? Sure. But I thought things were trending in the right direction.
But in Oct, she mentioned that I made progress, but then would backslide, but was light on specifics.
It's not unusual for WAS's to talk like that. "You did a lot of things wrong but I'm not going to waste my time telling you what they were because it's too late for that."
“She has this fantasy of how much better her life would be without you? Show her what that life is like! Give her the time and space she asked for. REALLY give it to her. (Yes this means no sex and affection, at least for now. Trust me, you'll survive.)”
I guess this is where I’m struggling right now. So...no affection at all? Not even a kiss on the cheek / arm goodnight and a verbal ‘goodnight’?
I’m not necessarily struggling with the ‘surviving’ part of that—it’s more of struggling on the execution. For the most part, I’ve been hands off and detaching more emotionally. It’s just that I’m a sucker for wishing her a goodnight.
I struggle with this because one of her consistent early complaints (areas of anger / unhappiness) has been about sex (frequency and different practices and such). I think to myself: if she’s so unhappy and angry with me because I haven’t been giving that to her as much as she wanted in the past, would doing a 180 mean giving her more?
W does see an IC, and I did mention the risk of PPD (especially given both of our individual histories—she and both have struggled with depression / anxiety in our pasts).
She mentioned to me that because she already sees an IC, that that person should be able to address PPD (at least, you would think).
