Hi Paco - wow, you have put a lot of thought into this already, far more than most of us when we first join. Like Davide said, most of us who first join are curled up in the fetal position wondering what the heck is going on and looking for magic bullets. You seem to be much more aware both of your own feelings and that of your wife. I have, after a year, uncurled from the fetal position, am no longer looking for magic bullets, but if I am honest, I am still wondering what the heck happened.
Limbo is not the best places to find ourselves. I persevere though because, like you, I see it as existential angst, a necessary stage we must go through in order to move to the next phase of our lives - though MLC is easier to explain to most people. Shorthand is shorthand for a reason.
I liken it to my 12 year old daughter, who is just now saying goodbye to her childhood. As part of this she feels compelled to exert her independence. Some of it is minor (gets embarrassed when we drop her off at school and call her darling), some of it is major (testing the boundaries of our patience with her). She does not hate her mother yet, but I know that is to come. I expect it to come. I loosen the rope for her, let her explore, and when she gets scared, then she can use the rope to come back. Freedom to work out who she is with the safety net that I will always be there. I have to admit though, that like my H, I do not always like the way she behaves, but like my H, I will continue to love her unconditionally. The difference I guess is I know that my daughter will go through this (8 years I think) and will come back. She will be different but she will also be my loving daughter again. My H, I am not so sure will return to me once he is out of the tunnel. There are a myriad of reasons why he might not want to R - he might come out and decide that the new him is happy, he might have found someone else, he might be too proud/stubborn to return or the guilt of what he has done might be too much for him. I am also not so sure if I will have the patience or the stamina to wait my husbands crises out. I will always love him, but I may also have moved on. I live my life day to day. Today I am standing.
Originally Posted by paco123
I believe individuals need and want an unshakable sense of self to live a life of wholeness and integrity. During the times I lost touch with this myself, I know I relied on distractions to soothe my soul.
I think you give most people too much credit. Very few people have an unshakable sense of self. Very few people are this self aware. Most people are lucky if they can live their lives in a state of contentment. It is when you start to be discontent (with yourself, your home, your job) that the angst you spoke about starts. But, like I said, I think at some point everyone questions their lives. The degree of damage you cause when you go through this process depends on a) whether you internalize or externalize fault and b) if your nature tends towards contentment or not.
Originally Posted by paco123
The other part of me wants to emotionally, mentally, and physically move on to other relationships, because I continue to want to know and to be known by some other in an intimate way, in the context of an unconditional, life-long commitment. For those of you who have persevered and held on to hope over many years, my whining over my own 10 months in limbo must seem infantile.
It isn't infantile. It is how you feel - and I get this, we all want a physical connection. It is part of being human. My question is - is this irrespective of whether you reconcile with your wife or not?
Originally Posted by paco123
As my oldest daughter put it: “is this the new normal or just an aberration?” If I knew for certain it is the latter, I would wait indefinitely.
Yes - the new normal is infinitely difficult to navigate (mainly because it changes from day to day).
Ovr, we had a 4 hour joint therapy session last Sunday.
FSolo, I agree entirely with your view that internalizing opportunities for growth versus externalizing blame is key to finding sustainable joy. And like you, I don't know how long I will have the stamina to wait this out.
After last Sunday's marathon session, I asked the therapist, "How long does one hold on to hope?" Her reply works for me: "As long as it is life affirming, rather than just coping."
In the same way that W has hit a phase where she is trying to define herself, I am also defining who I am in how I respond. To me, the holocaust survivor, Viktor Frankl, is the exemplar of how I can create meaning--and thereby derive some small solace--from life's most agonizing moments.
I'm still chewing on to that statement "As long as it is life affirming, rather than just coping". I'm not sure if I just don't like the verbs or what.
To me, no one can answer your question "How long does one hold on to hope?". Every "one" is different, stronger, more/less patient, etc etc. How long can you remain hopeful? I doubt even you know.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
As you say, ovr, no one knows. I am accepting more fully that life provides no easy, single, coherent narrative either (1) to explain W's behavior; or (2) to guide my response to it. I have to trust her with (1), as I have no control over narratives she tells herself.
As for (2), I am struggling--day by day--to create that narrative, which must be consistent with my soul and the best version of myself. So far, the narrative that resonates is: be patient. Do not walk away now when W needs me most, even if she does not realize it just yet.
I understand I'm risking a lot of heartbreak if she never does. I'll cross that bridge if and when my narrative changes.
paco, we all struggle with that. Find AnotherStander's timeline for the LBS (it is Ready's thread of quotes). All of us struggled with being patient. Lack of patience causes us either to pursue and pressure, which results in the WAS leaving even faster. Or to pull the trigger on D ourselves.
Obviously, we will all come to a point where we are no longer willing to wait. Most of the anti-D experts I have studied suggest giving it at least 1 year. I, myself, set a deadline of 1 year. I have had in my signature "I will give her until 1/2/2018 to commit fully to R or I will file." She fully committed back in March.
I like that you are concentrating on your W's behavior. That is the key. Nothing they say matters. A lot of times the things they do doesn't matter. What matters is consistent behavior over a long period of time. If you have read other people's sitches here you will see that the WAS often will do things just to manipulate the LBS. We call temp checking or throwing a bone. Short term doesn't matter. When you see consistent behavior from your spouse over a long period of time that is when you will know. I said mine committed fully in March. I didn't trust it until I had seen it consistently for 3 months. We are now 8 months+ of her consistent behavior.
I would caution you on the use of the word "narrative". Narrative to me is something that is spoken. You are looking for a "pattern of behavior". Talking about being patient is a narrative. BEING patience is a pattern of behavior. Just like you shouldn't believe anything she says, do not be surprised that she believes nothing YOU say. WASs are much more advanced in this area.
In fact, I will use your thread as a way to quickly post something I have been thinking of.
Question: Why is is that WASs believe nothing a LBS says, but the LBS eats up everything the WAS says with a spoon?
The answer really comes from the same basic human trait: we want to believe what we want to believe.
First the WAS believing nothing the LBS says. Why is this? Well it is rooted in the years leading up to BD. Remember, by BD, if initiated by the WAS, the idea of leaving the MR has been percolating in the WAS' head for usually about 2 years. After years of nagging, and complaining, and seeing no real lasting changes from the LBS, the WAS stops complaining. The LBS sees this as a positive! "He or she is finally happy with me!" In reality the WAS had given up and is planning their exit strategy. At this point, the WAS' mind is made up: they want out. Over the course of the next 2 years their decision is further cemented. They come to grips with the pain it has to cause, the upheaval it will cause the family, the logistics of it all, and just in general come not only to be resigned to the idea, but excited by it. Granted a lot of it is fantastical and not reality ("the kids will be better off!" "he/she can find someone more compatible, I am really doing them a favor!" etc), but is what they go through for a period of roughly 2 years until BAM! They drop the hammer and tell the LBS "It is over."
Now, at this point their decision is made. LBS starts saying things contrary to that decision. Most of which is "I will change!" The problem is that the time of them being open to changes is past. so they don't want to hear it. In fact, they don't want to hear ANYTHING that in anyway is contrary to their decision, no matter who it is from. I truly believe God himself could manifest before them and tell them what they are doing is wrong, and they wouldn't want to hear it! So yes, they believe NOTHING the LBS says because they don't want to hear what the LBS is laying down.
Now, the LBS is a completely different animal at this point. They are scared, desperate, and in survival mode. They want to cling to ANY little nugget of positivity that they possibly can. When the WAS says "ok, we can do MC" the LBS is over the moon! Never mind that the WAS probably doesn't mean it, and even if they do end up attending it is just to later say "yes we even tried MC". Even after hearing the reality like this, most LBS will still cling to it. "There is still hope because he/she said they'd attend MC!"
Humans love to hear what they want to hear. And to dismiss what though don't want to hear. This is why in most sitches the WAS isn't listening to anything the LBS says, and the LBS is clinging to every word the WAS says.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks for the reminder that this will take more time than I might have guessed. While I have career projects to occupy me meantime, I still think of her constantly. I guess none of us would be here if we all could walk away as easily as our spouses seem to have been able to.
Regarding the distinction between "narrative" and "behavior," I see the two intimately linked. To a large extent, our actions are motivated by the stories we tell ourselves. W claims that she has been unhappy for the past 15 years. This surprised me and I think this would surprise our kids, our extended families, and our close friends as well.
I am not sure if this has been truly her emotional reality over those 15 years, or whether this is the story she tells herself now as she looks back at a life I can only guess she now feels was unfulfilled. Whichever version or mix of versions it is, this is the narrative that is driving her decisions right now.
I continue to pray for her. Regardless of whether she chooses to work on the marriage, for her own growth and happiness as an individual, I hope she can exorcise the resentment and anger lingering in her. I've expressed remorse for my behavior, and that this point, I draw comfort from the 3Cs of Al-Anon families: "I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it."
I think we all build narratives in our head as a means of protecting ourselves - from our own or others behaviors. For me, this is the primary reason for the 'rewriting' of history (along with the cherry picking of events and the perception bias).
For example, "I have met my soulmate and my M is stopping me from being with them" (narrative), "I am sleeping with someone who is not my wife and I am not going to stop" (behavior), "You make me unhappy" (narrative) ... "I am walking out of my M" (behavior). We, the LBS, create own narratives too.
Narratives protect, but also, if left untethered, stop us from taking responsibility for our actions.
I am not sure I added to this chain of posts because I think Steve was trying to make a different point re words are cheap and that it is the actions that matter (and he is right, it is our actions that define us) ... but I have been thinking a lot about our internal narratives and how it feeds our behavior. There is a part of me that ignores the problems in our M (narrative) which stops me from letting go (behavior).
