Introduction

[burned]

I have absolutely realized in my H's case that he needs a lot of validation

Possibly part of the WS/WAS syndrome, certainly true in my case. In hindsight, she was insecure and needy, and I didn't do enough to "feed" that. I mean I thought I did. But as with the job-hopping thing, maybe enough was never enough. One of the jobs she hopped away from offered her something crazy like a 25% increase in salary if she would stay. Nope, she had decided she was done and was already looking forward to her next job. (Two regrets here: 1, I enabled this every time it happened, saying, "If you don't like it, quit, you'll find another job anywhere, they'll love you, and I'll foot the bill in the meantime." Foreshadowing, perhaps, and now you see why I'm so certain she won't be coming back. 2,

the one small thing I was asking him to help ME with often went unaddressed while he is putting in all the efforts to please people at work..

Here I'll be honest and say that I did that, and I'm the one who got BDed. W repeatedly said she doesn't care about money. But I was raised to judge my worth by my salary, big mistake. I was so proud of myself; she felt all alone. Maybe it's a guy thing? Or maybe it's because when I was at work and I did something nice, I got praised, which I like, whereas at home I got a lot of gruff. (I'm slowly starting to see things more clearly from a distance, almost 8 months post BD1.)

I don't think my H or your W will ever find what they're looking for if that's the rationale behind it. A part of me thinks that points to my H not ever being able to be satisfied in any relationship

This is what I'm led to believe usually happens with the WS/WAS. They don't address the issues and they run through the script again. My M lasted 11 years (10 good years) so maybe 10 years from now she will find herself angry and alone again? That's still not a comforting thought, for someone codependent like me who still seems to think that she'd be happiest with me.

How are you feeling now? Has it abated some or are you still working through those fears?

Sorry to let you down, but I'm not even close to getting past those fears. They are THE thing holding me back right now, and they seem to get more intense the closer I get to D because that means I really will have to face them and I won't get to hide from them by staying in my M. But consider that healing happens at different rates for different people, and I am stubborn and somewhat immature when it comes to emotions. Plenty of people around here actually looked forward to the freedom and opportunities that came later. I'm just not there yet.

[TJT]

In hindsight, she was insecure and needy, and I didn't do enough to "feed" that.

I never THOUGHT my H was "needy", although maybe I noticed elements of insecurity. But I never imagined it would be such an issue. This also goes back to my H not communicating. There are a ton of things that I don't think he ever planned to share that even with my inquiries over time, he chose to just keep inside for whatever reason. Given he later said "you should have known", meaning I shouldn't have stopped asking (per his requests for me to stop...) I see that behavior as a diversion tactic now. He was dealing with it in ways he probably knew I wouldn't approve of, and wasn't willing to work on it WITH me, so therefore no communication aside from projecting the manifestation of problems onto me to make himself feel better about his inability to face it.

But I was raised to judge my worth by my salary, big mistake. I was so proud of myself; she felt all alone. Maybe it's a guy thing? Or maybe it's because when I was at work and I did something nice, I got praised, which I like, whereas at home I got a lot of gruff. (I'm slowly starting to see things more clearly from a distance, almost 8 months post BD1.)

I do see the pressure for men to be the provider. It's definitely ingrained in our society and I hate that, just as much as I hate the traditional limitations placed on women and certain things being associated with our value. But, I definitely don't understand why a man can't see the differences of work/impact/praise at work and those same elements in a relationship, which has many other variables, including their own behavior. My H worked all the time, every weekend, multiple jobs, for almost our entire relationship. So I totally identify with feeling alone, because he honestly seemed to like being at work more than with me. AND I accepted it (because to your point, I thought he just really liked it and I know we were also saving for a lot of things), AND still I'm the one who got BDed!!

One specific example of the work/home praise issue is we hung a security camera for our home when we first moved in and H helped rig the wires up nice and neat so they were out of the way. I praised him for how good it looked and how it was a great idea the way he did it (with matching color zip ties). He told me that once at work he put something electronic together with a lot of wires and took a picture for his boss, who then told him it looked like crap. So my H said he took the whole thing apart and re-did it to look better....

Two points here:
1) If I were to have said "this looks bad, can you redo it?" I would have been the equivalent of the wicked witch to my H. Not just in that moment, but it would get filed under this long-term mental list of "sins of my wife".

2) Even despite having done the exact opposite and praising H for his work, it clearly didn't have had the same effect as someone he's not around every day praising him for it.

I think part of this is unfair expectations. People start to expect that they won't be questioned by their spouse, or if they do, that it means something way more than it does. Whereas at work people see it as more of a transaction than a relationship, and if someone says you did something bad, you can look at it more objectively (not in all cases, but it's more acceptable in that context).

While it seems minor/simple, I totally see how this can escalate to really cause friction in a relationship. What's frustrating is how so many people don't realize that it is fixable, or even LOOK for solutions before ascribing these kinds of issues to the other person taking them for granted and now everything [censored] and they now suck and are a different person I married, and now I want a D, vs. other things impacting the interactions that can be changed or better yet, reminding themselves of all the good things. Also, the seemingly more and more acceptable behavior of people being disposable since you can just find someone else who will be different, right?

I read a LOT when my sitch first escalated about misconceptions of good marriages always making you feel "happy", and how just because you don't feel the warm fuzzies sometimes doesn't mean you are no longer compatible or can have a great relationship. It just happens. You get into slumps. Life throws things at you that pull out your irritable side or your fears or whatever. I'm generalizing the issues of course and totally not trying to discount the real problems we each have in our Ms, but I'm just saying - there were totally things about my H and our M that I haven't liked. I ALWAYS felt it would be worth it to stick with him and grow and love him anyway. That's why I married him.

IN FACT, before we got married, while we were engaged, I will admit that an acquaintance started to get friendly with me and made me rethink if I was choosing the right person...but the point is I remembered all the things I loved about my H, all the work we had done after many years of dating to grow together, and I did CHOOSE him with intention. I remember how during that time I questioned my "feelings" of not being totally head over heels for my H, but guess what? Because I chose him and deliberately put all of myself into our M, those feelings absolutely came back.

I can empathize my H questioning or not being totally thrilled with me in some phases of life... but it really hurts that whatever things he didn't like about me or our M were SO bad that he felt he didn't want it anymore, especially without half the fight for our M that I would have expected from him. I definitely think that's related to the short-sighted warm fuzzies of a new relationship making someone think what they have is now inferior without looking at the big picture.

That's still not a comforting thought, for someone codependent like me who still seems to think that she'd be happiest with me.

I'm with you on this one, 100%. Exactly how I feel. Not because I think I'm perfect, but because I know how willing I am to work with him on things. I don't feel like there are many people out there who are THAT loyal and truly committed to another person (clearly, I mean look at what I'm willing to stick with him through!) Maybe I'm wrong and over-romanticizing myself, I don't know...again just doesn't make sense to me unless the whole relationship was garbage fire to throw all that history away.

Sorry to let you down, but I'm not even close to getting past those fears. They are THE thing holding me back right now, and they seem to get more intense the closer I get to D because that means I really will have to face them and I won't get to hide from them by staying in my M.

Well, I just realized from this response that we are almost in similar places in our sitch. BD for me happened in May. So this doesn't totally let me down that you have the same fears, for some reason I thought your sitch was further along.

I am definitely stubborn with my emotions as well and can't even fathom being excited about the "freedom" that will come with no longer being in my M. To me the loss feels like so much of a backslide in life that the time it will take to rebuild or to even find someone to work toward rebuilding with that I feel like I will love as deep as I love my H feels impossible, and that it won't ever live up to the future I imagined having with H. You know, because of that whole part where you never imagined you'd have to do it kind of thing, and now that you've imagined it one way how can you just erase that and start with a fresh mind?

I know everyone says we can't know that and we may find something better and many people do...but I'm in the same mindset right now where because I'm so stubborn and passionate about how I feel, I don't know if I believe I can get there. I do try to think of ex-boyfriends and how I felt with them while I was dating them vs. how I feel about them now, to convince myself it's possible, and that helps look at things a little different BUT it also doesn't seem like a fair comparison because of the much shorter lengths of those relationships, maturity level, etc.

In summary, I didn't take M lightly. I don't think any of us here did. For H to just be like, meh, no big deal, or him being so confident he'll survive, I just want to know what DNA that is, and can I have some?? But I have to talk myself out of not wanting to be a loving, committed person anymore, because I know that's not the "right" option and the more I think like that, the more I definitely hold myself back from the possibility of something good in the future...but legitimately, I don't know what I would do or how others on this forum do it when they get hurt like this multiple times. If this were to happen to me again I think I'd definitely have to be committed....like, to a psych ward, not a person lol.

Ugh, another super long post. I was doing so good for a few there

[DejaVu6]

Wow TJT... I could have written that. And I think we may have been married to the same person... the one who never speaks up about how he feels but keeps a bag of resentments close to his side in order to justify his lack of fight. You sound like a strong woman. My H has always been attracted to strong women but then, over time, he grows to resent them for the very things he liked about them in the first place. Confident becomes controlling...determined becomes stubborn...intelligent becomes “know-it-all”...you get the gist. My H has a very hard time expressing his feelings if they are at all negative. He is incredibly articulate and has the gift of gab but he clams up whenever it comes to his internal experience. He also only ever talks to the people in his life that he thinks will agree with his perspective. He avoids anyone he thinks might judge him or tell him he is wrong. Your H, like mine, has a lot of work to do.

I’m with you btw... this is not an experience I would care to have twice but at least I have a better idea of what characteristics I need to avoid in the future.

[TJT]

My H has always been attracted to strong women but then, over time, he grows to resent them for the very things he liked about them in the first place. Confident becomes controlling...determined becomes stubborn...intelligent becomes “know-it-all”...you get the gist.

Yes, this. I believe this is part of what has happened in my sitch too, although historically I don't think my H's partners have followed that trend, AND I'm pretty certain OW is a much different type of "woman" (I have a hard time using that word with her), based off what I know.

That's interesting to me because I can see how her "needing" him may have drawn him to her, but I have a hard time believing he's going to be happy with that long term. Especially given allllll the logistical "life" things I did that I asked him many times if he would share more responsibility for doing, which he then would state he preferred me to do because I was better at it! Which may have been partly true but I also feel like was partly him being lazy and not wanting to have to deal with it.

I guess it's back to what I already said too about the "standard" of excellence other people around him have vs. me... maybe if I had fed him a bunch of fluff to make him feel like he was amazing (rather than just asking for help like a normal person) he would have been more open.

Then again, there's a big part of me that feels like he would have been "susceptible" to this no matter what, in the sense of it being more a values/commitment issue than an issue of our problems in the relationship, if that makes any sense. Not being able to evaluate and accurately make sense of one's feelings, and therefore making it someone else's problem.

I believe that most of the gripes, while not invalid, were made out to be way more of an issue and play more of a role in this than they really did - they were just "convenient" for him to use as a "reason". I have proof of this behavior in him because when the initial details of OW came to light and I suspected there was more to it, I tried to point out and ask about more things and he would totally gaslight and say, "You're never going to believe what I say" and "This is exactly what I'm tired of." So later when I found out that my suspicions were correct, I stated how messed up it was that not only did he lie, but then he made me seem crazy for not believing him. And he just said, "Yes, I did."

I will definitely say the "cycle" our arguments followed was essentially that I would bring something up, and the real issue would never get addressed because he'd just get too defensive about the fact that I was bringing something up! Instead of keeping on topic, it would become about "well what about when you did this other thing!" And i would say hey, we can gladly talk about that separately, but right now we're talking about this thing...and by the way, if you ever have any issue, please bring it up at that point and not only when I'm trying to talk to you about something else."

It sounds so stupid, and this is exactly what I meant earlier when I said that while I KNOW how maddening these cycles are, I'm still also smart enough to know that that cycle did NOT mean we weren't compatible..it just meant we hadn't yet cracked how to communicate with each other in ways that worked, and in my opinion is something that could definitely be improved upon.

Anyway, back on the topic of being strong vs. needy, I don't think I'll be able to "win" that game with him. I'm not going to be able to change the things that are strong about me, and I shouldn't have to and don't want to, but even IF I practiced being more, how should I say it.... prudent?... he's got such a fixed mindset that I don't think it would matter. Rather than growing together, he said at one point he doesn't think that's possible and we can grow with other people instead. I know it was likely just another excuse for him to run off with OW and time will tell how that works out for him and if he's just going to keep "outgrowing" people.

Separately I'm now freaking out a little bit that he's the one who has control over the D papers because for some reason I've gone from "he wouldn't spend the money on a lawyer or try to fight me for money" to "OMG WHAT IF HE GOT A LAWYER AND IS GOING TO FIGHT ME FOR MONEY"... but I'm going to table that for now and take into consideration what Steve already said, and not try to scare myself into anything other than what it is at this moment!

[burned]

TJT: I wanted so badly to reply to all of the different things you said.

I wrote a really long post with quotes and responses and all that.

Then I thought to myself: she's a lot like me, and that's fun and reassuring. But wait a minute, if she's a lot like me then maybe she gets stuck in the same patterns that I do. You said you were an introvert, no? So am I. And the problem we have is that we live our lives in our heads, not in the real world. We sit around and think and talk and ruminate until the cows come home. Does it help us? It soothes our fears, in the moment. But do we benefit, in the long run, from short-term avoidance of pain? Maybe thinking and talking and ruminating is a way to avoid the harder stuff.

Let's take a different approach today. It's time for action. Nothing crazy. But this is a DB forum so let's refocus. We're both afraid of the machinations of our spouses as they secretly prepare to crush our hearts yet again. What's the antidote?

GAL! So GAL, gal. Do it. And then report back to us. What did you do? How did you feel? Were you able to stop thinking about H, even if it was just for 10 minutes?

[TJT]

We sit around and think and talk and ruminate until the cows come home. Does it help us? It soothes our fears, in the moment. But do we benefit, in the long run, from short-term avoidance of pain? Maybe thinking and talking and ruminating is a way to avoid the harder stuff.

First, I hate you.

Second, just kidding... good points.... I really don't think that I talk and ruminate out of avoidance, but moreso as a coping mechanism when I can't understand stuff. Actually, I think I think, and because I think too much, I start funneling it all into writing and talking because I need to get it OUT to make it stop in my head. Not that it ever really stops, but it does help. And I am big on reflection because it helps me learn too. I have always been a journaler and "discusser" and I love teaching stuff back to people because it helps me see things through different lenses.

How-e-verrr, because I'm also a very practical person...when stuff doesn't make sense, especially stuff out of this world like this, which is the most preposterous and history-making event in my life that I thought I'd only see in a movie, I definitely keep going deeper and deeper and spiraling because damnit if there's not an explanation somewhere and I am GOING to find it.

So, the essence of what you're saying is still true. It doesn't actually accomplish much, especially with something like this, and I know that to my core. It can definitely become an obsession/compulsion that I try to recognize when it's worse at some times than others.

Let's take a different approach today. It's time for action. Nothing crazy. But this is a DB forum so let's refocus. We're both afraid of the machinations of our spouses as they secretly prepare to crush our hearts yet again. What's the antidote?

GAL! So GAL, gal. Do it. And then report back to us. What did you do? How did you feel? Were you able to stop thinking about H, even if it was just for 10 minutes?

I admit for my last few threads I went on a little bit of just like, venting I guess. And I think it's helpful to revisit some examples and context when I'm reminded of certain things too. But I digress - I do have plans for friends to be over (like 4 of them) to grill out this weekend and while I feel pretty lame because I don't really know how to "entertain" people when it's literally just me, I know it will be good to chill out and chat and stuff. Although I also feel guilty that I've been telling them I'd send an evite to get it on their calendars and have failed for like a month, and now the weekend is pretty much here! But then I said oh well, they know the plan and look at everything I've been dealing with - no hard feelings if I couldn't get a damn invite out.

I also wanted to go out to dinner one night this week with a neighbor lady but back to the introvert thing, she's starting to exhaust me because she has a lot of her own relationship drama but compared to what we're dealing with it's like...really? And I end up being her relationship coach most of the time and the other day I found myself just being really annoyed by it and feeling more like I'm getting drained rather than fulfilled. But I'm going to keep it going and just see if we can connect on some other topics maybe.

Aside from that it's just not "me" to go out that much. This is why I am PETRIFIED of "dating". Just thinking about it is exhausting. I want "my person" that understands and likes just hanging out with me even if it's doing nothing, an area where I thought me and my H were matched up really well. I also don't have a lot of close friends and only got together with friends without my H very rarely - and I was okay with that, it wasn't anything he pressured me not to do or anything. AND he was the same way, another thing I loved because it made me feel like we never really got sick of each other or that I had to worry about what he's really doing with "just the guys". I just really crave having "couple friends" and being a family unit. The single ecosystem is not a place that will feed my energy well..

I do make sure to have my pedicure days every once in a while and make sure I'm giving the dog a decent amount of outside time, so that will be my other commitment I guess. In fact maybe tomorrow I will try to take her for a walk right away in the morning rather than waiting until after work. I've tried to make sure I get "fetch" time in the yard with her but it's been a while since I took her on a full walk. I'm questioning if that even counts as GALing... please tell me it does.

[Yail]

I found myself just being really annoyed by it and feeling more like I'm getting drained rather than fulfilled. But I'm going to keep it going and just see if we can connect on some other topics maybe.

This is a delicate balance of pushing yourself vs knowing your limits. It applies to everything, but social situations is something I relate to. Just remember it's okay to step back sometimes. It is okay. Push yourself, but listen to yourself too.

Aside from that it's just not "me" to go out that much. This is why I am PETRIFIED of "dating". Just thinking about it is exhausting.

When you find you are ready to date remember there are different kinds of dating. Sometimes it will be "too much" (kind of like your description about hanging out with your neighbor lady). Maybe that's not the right kind of energy to push too hard. When you meet someone cool that you click with you will not be in a perpetual state of exhaustion. Introverts date - all the time! Again, you will just have to experiment with pushing yourself a little bit to get yourself to go out - but then know when it's just not your scene, and don't be embarrassed to bail after that.

Maybe you don't need to "date". Just....meet new friends. And some of them may be cuter than others

In fact maybe tomorrow I will try to take her for a walk right away in the morning rather than waiting until after work. I've tried to make sure I get "fetch" time in the yard with her but it's been a while since I took her on a full walk. I'm questioning if that even counts as GALing... please tell me it does

I say yes. If nothing else, it is switching up your routine which is great. That's always a good thing. New perspective can be seen with new activities. Good for our brains.

You seem to be having a bad night. I so sympathize, and hope you feel better tomorrow. Allow yourself this mood and energy dip. But then tomorrow wake up renewed.

[burned]

Yes, walking the dog! Introvert GAL. A long walk with your best friend. Physical exercise. Is there a dog park where other people go? Go there. Try starting a conversation with one person whose dog likes your dog. Ideally someone you’d never date. Just practice making small talk.

Ugh dating. I hear you. But don’t worry, it will happen organically. I dread the idea of going to bars to “pick up ladies.” Eff that noise. You’ll be at the supermarket and your cart will bump into someone else’s cart and he will blush and look down and smile and you will have the courage to banter with him on the way to checkout and you’ll end up getting his number so you can text (introverts don’t call!) and you’ll be smiling and when you get home you’ll realize that you forgot to get onions, and you won’t care because it was a good day.

I mean, that’s one hypothetical scenario. Plus he has dog food in his cart so you ask him about his dog, and he has a husky-shepherd mix, which is a really cool kind of dog, and he has hazel eyes and he likes the same brand of pasta sauce as you do.

[TJT]

Thanks Yail, everything you’ve said is encouraging and I do appreciate it and you’re right, there’s appropriate context even for introverts to meet people

I have been having a bad few days since the holiday, but I am on the upswing once the major breakdown passed. Work has also been annoying however that’s one thing where I actually get really in the zone and stay very busy during the day and hardly ever think of H. But it can make my evenings and weekends a lot harder if I don’t plan in advance because suddenly when work is done it’s like welp, here I am!!

The dog has actually been very helpful because now that she only has one parent I know I’m the only one responsible for giving her attention and exercise and I try hard not to neglect her because of that. She’s definitely gone on a lot more walks than ever before!

I can’t remember if I wrote about it but I did go to yoga after IC the other day. It was when I was feeling more anxious and it was hard to focus but it’s great practice. The instructor did a meditation at the end where we had to think of someone we love, someone who is difficult right now, and finally ourselves and envision saying to that person / ourselves “ may you be happy, safe, and loved”. It was hard for me to do that for both H (difficult person) and myself but again, good practice and overall the classes do help my body feel more relaxed. I actually purchased more classes while I was there since I only had two left.

[TJT]

LOL burned, I think I might save that whole response so I can keep going back to read it. I honestly lol’ed. Thats totally the ideal scenario!

Unfortunately my dog is a rescue and she’s adorable but acts like absolutely everyone else is a murderer... she’s not good at making me friends so we stick to ourselves for the most part. I do occasionally take her to a trail instead of just the neighborhood.

Thanks for the laugh, I’ll let you know how my next grocery store GAL goes!